Ep 196. - How Waqf Endowments Built The Foundation of Muslim Society with Maulana Tahir Talati
The Waqf, or endowments, is an age-old Islamic method of supplying public services. Throughout Islamic history, this third space enabled entrepreneurs and the monied to donate to causes that would multiply their reward. Many of the key services from health to education in history were funded by this method and it became a model of giving, emulated by many Westerners. Oxford University, it is said, built its endowment structure on the Waqf model. But what is a Waqf, and why do many call for its reintroduction today? My guest believes in this forgotten sunnah, and has set up an organisation the National Waqf. Maulana Tahir Talati heads the National Waqf, an organisation looking to revive the practice of Awqaf.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
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so if you're a colonial power and you're coming into a country they made a concerted effort to dismantle the weal the first University which today is known as Jam was actually built and
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that was a w he was amazed at the number of endowments that were set up in Damascus the
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W in the ottoman era was so powerful that a person would be born in a hospital which was
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funded by the W when an individual passed away the very coffin that they were buried in was funded by the W the W supported a individual literally from Cradle to grave
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the state is supreme and the state controls everything they gave autonomy and control to the local population to the local community W is about empowerment W sustains the Muslim
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Community the walk or endowments is an age-old Islamic method of supplying Public Services
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throughout Islamic history this third space enabled entrepreneurs and the money to donate
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to causes that would multiply their reward many of the key services from health and education in
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Islamic history were funded by this method and it became a model of giving emulated by many
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westerners Oxford University it is said built its endowment structure on the wak model of
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the Ottoman state but what is wak or its plural ala and why do many call for its reintroduction
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today my guest believes in in this forgotten Sunnah and has set up an organization ation
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for National W MTI heads the national W an organization looking to revive the practice
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of and welcome to the think well look this is a really interesting subject
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and actually I I went to a a lecture that you gave and I found it very revealing um
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I I think it's a subject that many of my viewers would probably not know very much about so we're going to have to start from the very basics then build it up inshallah
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so let's just talk about W for Al um uh how do we Define w in the Islamic
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tradition so literally in the Arabic language refers to to pause or to restrict from an Islamic
What is Waqf?
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perspective though you don't find the term W in the Quran or in any of the the framework
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for w was set out and outline very clearly by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam so from a definition perspective what means to restrict and in terms of and endowments it
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refers to the Restriction of an asset and the transferring of the ownership of the asset from the individual to Allah subh in the time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
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as W is the tradition of w goes all the way back to the prophetic times yeah and it's a
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prophetic Sunnah as you mentioned the early Scholars after the time of the Propet defined
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as meaning the Restriction of the asset transferring of the ownership of the asset from
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a private individual from an organization from an entity from a government to Allah subhanahu wa tala and the benefits that come from that asset is then given to the community at large and when we
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mean restriction we mean that once a particular asset has been designated as a wealth that can
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no longer be transferred the ownership can no long it can no longer be sold it can no longer be inherited and it can no longer be given as property and ownership of anybody else it's been
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exclusively permanently perpetually been given to Allah subhah wa tala okay so I want to understand
Purpose of Waqf
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this so um the the idea here is that uh you have an asset and that asset now becomes the property
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of Allah subhana wa tala and so what you can't own it an individual can't own it you can't transfer
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it you can't inherit from correct you can't okay and and what's the what's the purpose of holding
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on to this asset then okay so for example I have this cup it's in my possession I actually own the
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cup I bought it it's in my possession I own the cup now if I want get one by the way thank you if
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I wanted to designate this cup as a w yes I would make the intention that from this moment onwards
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this cup is now W that means that I no longer own it I can't do as I please with it when it was in
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my ownership if I wanted to destroy a if I wanted to gift it to you if I wanted to sell it and if I want to leave it in my inheritance I could yes the moment I've designated as W the ownership now
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transfers to Allah okay then I have to stipulate as the as the W as the person who's designating
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this cup as a w what I want the W to be used the cup to be used for so I can say that the purpose
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of this cup brother Jal is every time someone comes into a studio I want you to give them water in this cup so now that's the designation of the cup as a permanent endowment it's perpetual
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you can never be used for any other cause and I've also stipulated the condition for which I want and the benefit I want yeah so how does W uh because it's it's a given how does a a w differentiate or
Waqf vs Zakat
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how do you differentiate between a wak and zaka for example so the difference between zaka and
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zaka is very clearly outlined by Allah subhah wa T in the Quran the prophet sallallah Al mentions
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in the narration that zaka is 2.5% of a muslim's wealth uh as long as a a Muslim has um the nisab
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which is the minimum threshold for paying zaka then they have to pay 2.5% of all of their um wealth and more importantly The Avenues in which zaka can be spent have been clearly defined by
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Allah in the Quran so in Allah mentions the verse and then there are eight avenues that
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Allah subhana mentions so the zaka the expenditure of zaka have to be restricted to those uh causes
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that Allah has very clearly defined s on the other hand is voluntary charity so you and I
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many Muslims around the world give charity on a daily basis that charity is s which is voluntary charity the usage of that charity is far more flexible the scope of usage of the charity is
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far more flexible and W is a type of not Zak so a voluntary charity that's been given the
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key difference of course with the w was as we've mentioned earlier is the perpetuity s and we'll
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touch on this later on is if I give charity once that charity has been given once and the money
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has been used or the clothing or the food items have have been used with W the key teacher is
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the sustainability is the longevity is the fact that when I give my S when I give my charity in a
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wealth then that's going to remain forever for as long as Allah subhana wills and and how comes how can it remain forever what is it about the work that allows it to be Perpetual of course it's
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the intention and that's the key thing in in in Islam every action revolves around the intention
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with which the action is being carried out so in the case of w the key feature there is the
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person the W who is giving um the benefactor who's giving the W has made the intention that from this
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point onwards if I am giving a charity towards a w I'm donating I'm giving a donation towards a w
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my intention is that I am giving charity towards a w and whatever the purpose for which that W has
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been set up the money will remain in that for as long as Allah Wills so if for example I say
Different Waqfs
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uh I leave in my my inheritance my will that my house correct is going to be Al right or not my
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inheritance because that's maybe more problematic I say now I'm going to leave my house is now a an
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ala property a wak property so that means now that uh the ownership of that house is transferred to
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Allah subhana wa tala and all the profits that may come from rental whatever it may be exactly
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that that uh Prophet goes to charity exactly so now you as a person who is the benefactor you're
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the one that's designating your house as a wealth you will decide when you decide to designate your
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property as a wealth you will say okay my property is what from now on for example you have private
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So a family W this concept exists and we we'll mention this even from the time of the messenger of Allah sahu alai wasallam the precedent has been set came to the prophet once and he said oh
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messenger of Allah I've got a piece of land which I received at it's the most valuable asset that I possess yes the most valuable piece of land that I have what should I do with there the prophet says
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to him and this is where the concept of w comes from he says to him why don't you give the land
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as weal meaning give it so that and transfer the ownership to Allah and allow people to benefit from the produce of the land So based on that suggestion of the Prophet sallallah Ali
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wasallam designated his piece of land as W so it was never to be sold never to be gifted never to be inherited and he made an intention that the produce from the land whatever was going to come
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out the benefits that were going to be extracted from the land was going to be used for the benefit a for his family members and also for the Muslim Community at large so in your case you could very
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well designate that my property is W so it can't ever be sold and transferred but I stipulate that
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it is going to be primarily for the benefit of my descendants so anyone from my family members that needs a place to stay they can stay in my house for free and then if the the house
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is the property is vacant I also add a condition that it is there any traveler to say for example any Muslim that needs to benefit okay that's interesting so uh how prevalent were these W
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or these ala in Islamic history okay so right down from the time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam if we consider that a Masid is also a form of w because the Masjid is not in
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the ownership of any individual right nobody can buy or sell a Masid once it's been designated then
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it's now in the ownership of Allah then we can say that when the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam migrated from Mak to M he built the first Masjid in Islam which was m so technically speaking MBA
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was the first W he then arrived in Medina and he built M that was also a the first recorded
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incident in the Hadith is when Allah revealed the verse of the Quran at the beginning of the fourth you will never attain true piety until you spend from that which you love a companion by the
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name of he came to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and he said oh messenger of Allah Allah
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has revealed this verse of the Quran that you will never gain true piety and righteousness until you spend from what you love the most prize asset that I possess and I own is it's this date palm Garden
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that I have so from From This Moment onwards I give it in charity for the sake of Allah the
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prophet Sall wasam actually remarked at the time what an excellent gift that is what an excellent means of Charity that is and then he gives him a suggestion why don't you give that Garden for the
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benefit of your family members and for the Muslims at large so says okay he goes home he speaks to
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his family members he speaks to his wife and he says that this date Orchard this Garden From This
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Moment onwards I have designated it for the sake of Allah so we can no we are no longer the owners of it she actually in some narrations it mentioned she says to him that when you made the intention
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did you also make intention for me so he says yes I made intention and she was very happy she said this is also what I was thinking that I want to be part of this a and this reward that from this
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moment onwards this Garden is now work for the sake of Allah subhana waala if we move a bit on there was actually a non-muslim Jewish scholar by the name of M he was very impressed by the
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prophet sallu alaihi wasallam and in his will he stipulated that when I die the land that I leave
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behind I want it to be given to Prophet Muhammad now there's a difference of opinion as to whether he actually accepted Islam or not but on his death his instructions were carried out and there were
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seven or eight pieces of land that he owned and they were given to the prophet Sall wasallam the messenger of allaham designated each of them as a w and allowed them to be used for the benefit
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of the Muslim Community you then go forwards you have obviously the very famous One The Well of Ruma Thea which is now known as The Well of when the Muslims first arrived in Madina there was a
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shortage of sweet water to drink and so there was this well which was owned by a particular
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individual at the time who was not a Muslim and he was charging a very high sum of money for locals to use the well and to benefit from the water so the messenger ofam seeing the need of
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the people one day addressed his companions and said who will purchase this well and give it for
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the Muslim Community so says I will take the the I will take that on he approaches the individual and
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he offers to buy it of him he refuses to sell so eventually they agree on a deal where says I will
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purchase half of the well and you own half of the well so one day I will own it the other day you have ownership he agrees so on the day that owned the well or it was his turn to benefit from the
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water he made a public announcement that anybody that wants to benefit from the water of the well is free to do so and so everyone used to come on that day and take the water and then the next
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day which was the ownership of that particular individual very few people used to go because he used to charge large amounts eventually he sold it and purchased the entire well the prophet
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actually said to him at the time when he made the announcement who will buy this well in exchange for Jenna and as on many different occasions he took on the responsibility the power of w
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is something which can be demonstrated from this act of so400 years ago he purchased The Well of
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Ruma the well was designated as a w even beyond the life of it was used to it was used to provide
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water to the inhabitants of Medina not not only that but it the water from the well was used to irrigate the plants the crops and the farms around the well that well still exists till this day the
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Saudi authorities have taken over management of the of of the well and of the W ofman and believe
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you for 1,400 years later that well annually generates an income of 50 million Saudi r,
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1400 years ago purchased the well it's now generating an income of almost 50 million
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Saudi reals until this day the produce that comes from the water in the well the Farms the
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date palms in and around that produce uh dates Etc the those that manage this W they give half
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the produce to the poor residents of Madina so they benefit from it and the other half of
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the investment the Returns on the investment are reinvested back into the well the W of so the of
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continues to grow now this was in the time of the Prophet when designated his piece of land
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as as a w he asked the companions to witness the agreement when they saw that the khif of the time
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was actually donating the land that he owned as W many of the they followed suit is a companion who
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was witness at the time when he was drafting the the W deed he says that on the back of that all of
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the major companions who could afford to donate a piece of land an asset or some something they had
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their own wealth so all of the famous companions the wives the Blessed wives of the Prophet they
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all had their own and this was in the time of the Prophet wasam if you move forward you move
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forward from the lives of the Companions and and and you move forward slightly in the third and fourth Century after the prophet that's when the of began to be codified and as I mentioned that's
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when the scholars came up with the definition of what the W entailed yeah you'll find that one of
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the earliest institutions of for the benefit of the community at the at large was so this was
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the first ever University in the world and this was a contribution you can imagine not only which
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benefited the Muslims at the time but that that Sunnah in essence that action has been emulated
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across the globe and now you have universities all over the world ftim was the name of the lady she
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inherited some wealth from her father and she and her sister donated and designated aspects of that
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wealth as well so what she did is she purchased a piece of land and she said that I want a Masid to be built on this land and alongside a Masid an institution was built the first University
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which today is known as J was actually built and that was aw you move forward again then you have
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the famous alar university in the 10th Century again an endowment aw which stands still today
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generating millions of dollars of Revenue and the the dollars the the revenue is then the proceeds
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of the W is then reinvested back in and used for the benefit of of the university and to provide services for the community move forward again you have actually the famous n madasa so IM gazali was
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actually a professor in the N madasa which was a weal if you then move forward you known batuta
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the famous traveler he actually documents in his journals that when he went uh to Damascus he was
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amazed at the number of IND ements that were set up in Damascus and he actually wres he he says
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that I can't believe how many different causes and how many different people benefit from the
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endowments and the a of Damascus he says there is a w that looks after animals there is a w that's
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been primarily set up to provide jewelry and clothing for a bride a W's been set up to support
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people who don't have utensils in their house explain that bride thing to me so for example there is a woman who is about to get married yeah and she can't afford to purchase jewelry for her
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wedding for her wedding day she can't afford to purchase a good dress for her wedding day there was a w that was set up the primary objective of that W was the proceeds from that W would be given
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to anyone who is about to get married and wants to use the funds from the W to purchase jewelry for
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example to purchase uh wedding dresses for their wedding day so that's to that's how creative they
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were that's how far and wide influencing wide reaching the aath were in those times then of
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course in the time of the Ottoman era and it's no exaggeration to say actually the historians mention that at the peak of the Ottoman area the W supported a individual literally from Cradle to
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grave and the historians mention that the Ottomans had actually set up a w system which they call the
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K system the Kia system in essence was they would get a piece of land and they would build a Masid
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there that entire land was designated as W they would build a Masid and surounding the Masjid they would build other institutions so there would be other buildings some would be colleges some
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would be madrasas some would be soup kitchens some would be for example for health to to treat people
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and as time went on and the leaders were replaced each would come and build a new one and they would
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VI with one another to see how many services they could actually provide for their local community and till this day actually if you visit Turkey especially in Istanbul in the masjids in the
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courtyard you'll find a pillar um which it's like a stone pillar and it's got a concave Hollow top
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the idea was any person rich or poor that wanted to give charity whether it was monetary charity
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whether it was items of food they would come and secretly leave the charity in the pillar and any
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poor individual who needed to benefit from the charity and whilst maintaining their dignity
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whilst avoiding the concept of reaching out and begging they would come to the courtyard and they
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would take whatever they needed from that and they would use it for their purposes and this still exist today so the W in the ottoman era was so powerful that a person would be born in a hospital
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which was funded by the wealth the cradle that the child slept in would be funded by the weal
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the the schools the colleges the universities that the child received education as growing up
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they were funded by the wealth even the medical services that the adults would require anyone in
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the community would require was funded by the W to the extent that when an individual passed away
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the very coffin that they were buried in the very stretches that were used to transport the body to
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thean was funded by the W and the grave was funded by the W so literally from Cradle to grave the W
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supported the entire institution and he supported the entire community so that that's really
Role of state
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fascinating stuff um uh explain then the role of the state because of course we live in uh Modern
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Nation States where the state is mive the state is a very big Enterprise and the state provides
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services they provide all of those Services you mentioned in your last comment that's all provided by the state right uh did the state the ottoman State the ottoman sultanate Theif did it
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have any part to play in organizing these WS okay so you had the public yes so public uh government
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for example uh organizations that would set up an endowment for public services money come from
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for for those so that would be either from the government so for example in in in this modern day and age yeah you've got an example of a work which is the zamzam tower complex in Mak okay so
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the actual complex was built upon the money which was donated by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia right
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so you'll actually see on the clock tower it says Malik ABD so it's been donated by the the
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The Sovereign so to speak the country so to speak and the usage is the Returns on those are used to fund the the Haram the services within the Haram so though there were endowments that was set by
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the W the key and the feature of defining feature of the was localized control and so the W boards
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that were set up in essence were very local so there was no State influence in the governing or
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the distribution of the proceeds from the W it was very very localized there was no centralized just
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as you mentioned in this day the state rules all in fact that actually leads us nicely to the fact that the demise and decline of the AA started during colonialism so in the 18th and
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19th centuries when the colonialist began to influence and and the concept of State Nations
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and and nation states rather when the concept of nation states came about so if we take an example of India India has one of the largest a in the world currently their a is to the value of $4
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billion and at one stage in India more than 50% of all land that was owned was a was W and a very
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similar story in the ottoman area 50 to 60% of all land within the country was designated as well for
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the benefit very different to what we see in this day and age so in India when of course the British
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came over if you imagine from the perspective of the the the colonial Powers they are coming into
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countries that are flourishing that are thriving and they're thriving as a result of the W concept
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from Financial perspective the W supported the entire Society everyone within Society
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rich or poor could benefit from the WF and they benefited from the services of the W so if you're a colonial power and you're coming into a country that's financially thriving and that has a strong
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identity about itself of which the W is a key and integral part then what's one of the first things that you do I mean many of them they could have committed genocide many of them killed thousands
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in fact yes as we know in the case of Algeria as we know in the case of India but one of the things that they did is systematic ially they made a concerted effort to dismantle the wealth
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and dismantle the a institutions so if you take a look at for example India in the 19th century
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the government the British government at the time passed what they call the W act and remember all this time as we mentioned the W was under local control the local you have what we call the mut
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or those that were responsible for managing the a yeah the British came in and they created in 18 61
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what they call the India wak Act and the purpose of this act was in essence to gain control of the
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wak boards and thereby getting control of w because they understood their significance
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and they understood what role the W played and so they passed this act and they slowly slowly
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began to take control of Institutions that were never meant to be under the control of a government they were never meant to be under the control of any individual as we mentioned
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right at the beginning the whole premise of w is that the ownership belongs to Allah it doesn't belong to any individual and these uh the British when they came they recognized the power of the W
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and they began passing these acts and these laws in order to bring about the control why
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because as you mentioned with States it's about centralization it's about control the state is supreme and the state controls everything these a were completely opposite they gave autonomy and
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control to the local population to the local community and so what they did is they passed these acts in order to bring these a under their control course there was a lot of fight back there
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was a lot of push back and in 1913 you have what was the musl W act that's what he was called the
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musl ACT which they brought in in order to bring back a little bit of control and to reuse the for
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what the original purposes was so the British what they tried to do is by redesignating the a under
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State Control they could use the proceeds of the whatever they like and so they used it to fund
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their military Ambitions for example and that was complete completely not what the W was set up for so because of this fight back in essence 1913 the musl W Act was enacted which gave back
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control of Al uh little by little to the way the initial donation was intended or the the
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re the benefactors intended but the consequences of that the consequences of colonial rule was such
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that till today the BJP government in India as we speak are once again trying to change legislation
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to regain control of AA I mentioned $4 billion worth of AA currently in India that's a large
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amount of money for the benefit of the Muslims and not just the Muslims but for the community of India so little by little as these AA boards came under the control of States they began to appoint
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W boards and they began to appoint authorities which had their own people that would govern the
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wak and hence it led to corruption it led to the demise and the downfall of w Algeria very similar
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situation when the French came in there they understood and they recognized that W was integral to Algerian society and so they adopted a twofold method one of the first things they did was they
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tried to come at it from an Islamic perspective so they said that W is not mentioned in the Quran
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Allah only mentions zakah in the Quran so it's not even an Islamic concept and so they used the Quran
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in order incorrectly in order to try to dismantle the so they basically basically said all of these
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lands and all of these a that have been set up all of these a that have been created in Algeria they
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islamically incorrect they should actually be in the control of the state and they forcefully took
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possession of many of these plots of land the second thing they did is they outlawed private
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they outlawed the family W so they said there is no such thing as a family w why because the
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Quran States the principles of inheritance the Quran states that the inheritance is for certain
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causes only can a person cannot generate or create a private wealth and so they use these methods in
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order to forcefully throw and and remove the idea for which the wa was set up change the proceeds
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change the uses and the causes and so this led to the decline of a but initially the concept of a w
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is a very independent localized method where you have loads of a across the country and the local
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people are the first and primary beneficiaries of the we and so the state is not really responsible
Reliance on Waqf
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over the work it's really the local boards that are responsible for how that work is uh how the
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proceeds of the work uh according to the original intent how those proceeds are are distributed so
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I'm remember right in then saying that um the ottoman state by and large did not provide
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centralized health and education but it was actually the work boards and the work designation
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that provided uh these uh Public Services exactly that so because these Al went back generations
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and centuries those that were responsible for managing the AA were the local authorities the
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local boards and so they were the ones that were responsible for maintaining for example the structure the building the upkeep of all of that and distribution of the funds from the W
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they were the ones that were responsible but when colonialism started and all of a sudden you've got the influence of the western Powers coming in and even in ottoman era towards the end of the Ottoman
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era the state began to interfere and they began to interfere in these local W boards and they began
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to take uh possession of all of these a and hence why it even led to the demise and collapse of the
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a within the ottoman era why because of State intervention that actually shows you that the
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model of w is localized it's decentralized there is no State intervention or management of a there
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are very very small a all over the sometimes can be very large but it has its own localized body
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and when the state interfered with incorrect intentions of course if the state has the same intention but when they interfere with these wrong in intentions with uh oppression and Injustice and
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with the with the concept of taking control and power and centralizing that then of course it led
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to the demise and decline of Thea um M I've read a number of Islamic economics books uh that look at
Islamic economists and Waqf
29:53
the economic system of Islam LLY written recently the 20 21st century and they tend not to focus
30:01
on the elaf at all if any if anything there is an absence of a conversation about what but it seems
30:07
to me that the economic order of the past was almost built on ala you couldn't provide services
30:15
without without wa Anda like what's going on there why is it that modern uh Islamic Economist are not
30:23
emphasizing the and that's not surprising because as I mentioned that the dising or the decline
30:28
of the a started in the 18th and 19th century because of colonialism and so there was actually a
30:34
concerted effort as I mentioned among orientalists on trying to prove that W was a medieval system
30:41
that W was a backward system and it was Ain to oppressive churches that wanted to control
30:47
the usage of land it was akin to Old regimes that wanted to have authority over how wealth and land
30:54
should be used and how it should be distributed hence why you'd find it's no surprise that these authors even even Muslim authors they don't refer to the W system they don't refer
31:04
to how integral the W system was even as early as a 16th and 17th century within the ottoman
31:09
era winding back a little bit and and and trying to understand the W umman Jania Masid in isul is
Generating funds
31:19
a prime example often use as Al as a walk property right how does SU Mania generate funds today like
31:26
how does it work I mean I'm not asking about the specifics but what would it do to generate funds in order for in order for those funds to be utilized for the mid as well as the surrounding
31:37
Community okay so usually I mean in that specific context I don't don't but generally once a w has
31:43
been designated I give you an example so we have a building we have a Masjid that has been designated
31:49
it's a site that's been designated as a w right wherever he is it's a large site the primary purpose of a mid of course is to provide prayer facilities so people will come in and benefit are
31:59
free services free services but the Masid then also provides because of its space additional
32:05
services for example they have a hall and so they say we will be hiring out or renting out the hall
32:10
for whatever functions Etc the money that comes from hiring and renting these Halles out will be
32:16
put into the W will be reinvested back into the W to provide additional services for free for the
32:21
benefit of the Muslim Community and that that's the Perpetual nature of the which we'll touch on later as to why W is so stainable why have Western institutions such as the universities
32:31
that we've mentioned why have they copied in essence the Islamic concept of w how come they've grown multi-billion dollar organizations and institutions using this sustainable method
32:40
of the W when this should come to well no let's come to that now so the Perpetual nature of these works right because uh you said something really interesting at the start where you said that um
32:51
there is a difference between say zaka in terms of reward and work because work is perpetually it
32:57
continues even after you die um so explain that idea of how how that comes about yeah okay so if
33:05
I give you an example using my own organization National wealth if you donate once in charity
33:12
you give 1010 to a charitable organization your 1010 has been used and it's been used for whatever
33:19
purpose you donated for example to purchase a food pack yeah now that 10 pound's been used the food Pack's been consumed and your charity is done of course it's reward it's rewarding yeah and um but
33:29
the minute the food pack is consumed the purpose for which the charity was given that charity has now come to an end you have the concept of which the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam mentioned
33:39
yes that one of the things that will benefit a Muslim after his death is perpetual and continuous charity now what is for example you donate to a charity to build a well in a particular country
33:52
or a water pump now is what that you've donated once they've purchased the water pump using your
33:57
donation for as long as that water pump remains active you're going to be getting rewarded so
34:04
that's a higher level of Charity now then just giving one off but where W comes in and where
34:09
W comes in is it's not just but it's increasing so for example at National w we have a four-stage
34:16
model so first is you donate to National W the Muslim Community donates right our model is that
34:23
we pull and collect the donations from the Muslim Community and we invest those donations in assets
34:30
that generate returns for example property using the donations from the Muslim Community once we've
34:37
pulled those donations we purchase a property that property is now designated as weal the donations
34:43
from the community has been designated as a wealth so it can no longer it's not it's legally it's in the ownership of the charity but islamically it's not in the ownership of any individual it's going
34:53
to remain perpetually as a wealth we then rent out that property the Returns on that property at
35:00
National w we have a 50/50 model so stage number three is half of those returns are reinvested
35:06
back into the W to ensure that the W continues to grow and the other half are then given as
35:12
grants to eligible projects and organizations within the UK which will come to later on but what that does is your initial donation of £10 or1 or ,000 yeah you donated once but because
35:26
of the fact that we've invested your donations that original donation is preserved in the asset
35:32
so your initial donation has been preserved in the property we've purchased the property using
35:38
your donation but not only that your donation is now generating returns so your initial £10
35:45
at National walk for example our investment method is we aim for 80% annualized returns
35:51
so your original donation of £100 for example by the end of year one is no longer just £100
35:57
it's now £8 why because your £100 is preserved in the property and the rental income that's being
36:03
generated from the property on the £550 model is that it's generated £80 worth of income 40
36:10
of that has been given to eligible causes and £40 has been reinvested back into the W so you started
36:16
with a donation of 100 you started with a donation of a thousand rather and by the end of the first
36:22
year the ,000 has become ,40 so your donation was th000 but by year one it's now 1,40 multiply that
36:31
after 10 years after 50 years after 100 years and you can do the figures you you you you you do the
36:36
numbers so from a rewarding perspective from a just just even thinking from the perspective of
36:42
a reward giving charity one off that's rewarding giving is more rewarding and then giving to a is
36:50
the most rewarding why because your numbers are just multiplying your numbers are increasing even after you're gone your initial donation is still there so it's not just a but it's a perpetually
37:01
increasing for as long as that asset and that W is intact and that's why donating in weth is possibly
37:08
one of the most rewarding types of donations that a Muslim can do right because 100 years 200 years 300 years later that money that you originally put into the work is still being utilized for
Waqf Political fund
37:18
the causes that you've designated exactly in the first place all right let let me uh give you a real life example I've been in conversation with a number of people about starting up the political
37:27
fund y right because politically in the UK we don't quite have that level of influence that we
37:34
believe we did have right and you know we know from the elections and everything you know in Gaza uh there has been you know a we've been quite shortsighted in the way we viewed this particular
37:45
area it's one of the many areas that the Muslim Community need to focus on how would the W idea
37:51
help build this fund so for example one of the areas that National W wants to fund is actually
37:57
Civic and political engagement so the proceeds from the W that we have the Returns on that yeah
38:05
we would give grants out to organizations that want to engage in Civic and political engagement
38:11
within the UK so one of the reasons we actually set up the W was one the primary concern for most
38:18
Muslim organizations in the UK is finance yes I mean I've been involved in a number of different projects number of different organizations I know a number of very talented individuals and Scholar
38:27
who are doing amazing work but their work would be magnified if they didn't have to worry about finance and so w is about sustainable Finance it's about sustainability longevity perpetuity
38:38
so what national W would do is or what any W would do would say Okay part of our grants is
38:46
to provide funding for an organization that's looking to look out for the interests of the
38:51
Muslim Community in the UK politically and this is where I want to mention a point from everything we've talked about so far we've understood that W is about empowerment W sustains the Muslim
39:01
Community and one of the things that we want to focus on in National W is about empowering the Muslim Community National W wants to empower the Muslim Community in the UK so that all of the
39:11
effort that's been done throughout the past few decades to generate and to preserve the
39:17
institutions of the Muslim Community to establish the institutions the mid halal food the rights of
39:22
the Muslim Community in the UK those rights are not only preserved but the Muslim Community in the UK can continues to flourish and develop and of course the political advocacy media engagement
39:32
Civic engagement is a key aspect of that now for the for over a year now you and I and the whole
39:38
world has been witnessed to a genocide that's been taking place in Raza how do we as Muslims in the UK benefit and assist the Muslims in Gaza you've had Sami Hamid on your podcast a number of
39:49
times and he's spoken emotively and powerfully on how much Collective power the Muslim umah has and
39:55
he's spoken about using our social media Platforms in order to to to to combat against oppression in
40:01
order to raise awareness with regards to I'm going to mention a different point here yeah
40:06
what national W wants to do is we want to empower the Muslim Community I give you an example was one
40:14
day sitting with a group of Companions and he said to them that if each of you could desire something what would you wish for so one companion raised his hand and he said I wish that I had a
40:24
room full of gold so that I could give the the gold in charity in the way of Allah then he said
40:30
okay think again somebody else raised his hand and said I wish I had a room full of pearls and I would sell that and give it for he said think again and so they said to him oh am you advisers
40:42
and his his response is very interesting he says I wish I had a room full of mu who was mu was the
40:51
leader of the ANS a giant of figure someone who was so influential and empower ing within his
40:58
community that the day he accepted Islam by that evening his entire tribe accepted Islam following
41:04
Su so what was doing was sending a message to the companions that it's not necessarily about
41:11
always what was doing was sending a message to the companions he was empowering them he was saying
41:17
that we need the likes of who as an individual will Empower an entire generation as an individual
41:24
will entire will Empower an entire community so what we want the Muslims in the Muslim Community
41:29
in the UK to do is to change their mind mindset we want them to change and shift their ideology
41:35
we're not just in the UK to earn our money and to build our portfolio of properties but rather
41:42
we have an obligation in the UK to assist and support the Muslim umah globally how do
41:47
we do that you mentioned politics you mentioned political advocacy if every Muslim has a vision
41:54
and an idea that I want to support the Muslims of Gaza using my charity using theod that I give I
42:01
want to empower the Muslims of Gaza yes how do we do that now let me give you a figure according to
42:08
Oxfam world hunger could be eradicated completely by 2030 by spending just above $30 billion a year
42:19
that's in seven or8 years time we would eradicate forget about just hunger in a particular place but we would eradicate world hunger by donating $30 billion towards this uh towards uh poverty and
42:32
alleviation of poverty let me give you another figure the Muslim umah collectively globally
42:37
donates on a yearly basis over $600 billion of zaka $600 billion of zaka collectively the Muslim
42:47
umah gives zaka according to devx news now if the world food organization and Oxfam are saying that
42:56
we require $30 billion for the next 7 years to eradicate poverty completely over the course of
43:02
7 years that works up to more than just above 300 billion dollar the donations of just the Muslims
43:09
for one year is enough to do what to eradicate poverty completely why doesn't it happen and
43:15
that's what we at National want to focus on is we want the Muslim Community to change their ideology
43:21
with regards to charity giving so absolutely support human relief projects support emergency
43:27
relief project support existing charitable organizations in the UK who are doing amazing work in Gaza in Syria in in different locations across the world but you as a Muslim in the UK
43:36
think big think how your charity can influence and impact the Muslims of Raza how can your charitable
43:44
donation support to alleviate the ongoing and remove the ongoing genocide in Gaza now the
43:50
Muslims may be sitting and think this is beyond our reach no he absolutely is not beyond our reach what we need to do is think systematically to think strategically to fund those institutions
44:00
and organizations that will Lobby the powers that be that we will no longer sit back and accept
44:06
an ongoing genocide we will no longer accept that our Muslim Brothers around the world are systematically slaughtered in front of the eyes of the world media and nobody's doing anything
44:15
about it and I'm going to give you another figure on that aspect people usually when the Muslims are
44:21
talking about this they say that oh we don't have enough funding all the powers that be are funded
44:28
and let me give you a stamp the United States has funded Israel since the formation of Israel more
44:36
than $300 billion the total donation the total funding of Israel from the United n United States
44:43
has been over 300 billion let me go back to the figure that I mentioned of zaka yearly the Muslim
44:50
Community donates how much in zaka 600 billion and there likely based on the stats in the UK
44:57
60% of donations are Sak donations 40% are zaka so if we replicate those figures then
45:04
we say that we have hundreds of billions of dollars of power within the Muslim umah why
45:10
are we not spending that effectively so what do we need to do there are organizations for example has actually set up a forever the purpose of that W is to support the Muslims of Gaza specifically
45:22
so if we were to support organizations such as that if we were to support organizations whose sole remit is to ensure that they support the Muslims of Gaza we went back and we discussed
45:33
the various a that were set up in Damascus and and in the ottoman era and they were catering for the various needs within the Muslim Community imagine a w that caters for Gaza so not
45:44
only the rebuilding of Gaza not only emergency humanitarian relief in Gaza but that W focuses
45:50
on owering organizations advocacy organizations that will Challenge and go to the human courts and
45:57
that will Challenge and go to United Nations and represent the interest of the Muslims of Gaza to say no we won't sit back and accept a genocide as it's happening we won't accept the inhumane
46:06
treatment of our Muslim brothers and sisters but rather we as a Muslim Community in the UK UK are going to do something about it we are now going to give our charity systematically strategically
46:17
we're going to set up a w that's going to support the Muslims of Gaza that's the power that W can
46:23
do and that's what we at National W want every Muslim in the UK to do that you've been giving and alhamdulillah we give the Muslim Community in the UK on a yearly basis gives more than 1
46:33
billion pounds in charity so we're not we are the most charitable giving community in the UK so we
46:39
give but it's time we now strategically give it's time we support organizations such as the ones
46:45
that you were referring to which will empower the Muslim Community in the UK politically which will look after the interest of the Muslim Community in the UK but we will also empower the Muslim
46:54
Community and the Muslim umah globally um now your organization National W um as you said you
47:01
designate a number of areas of concern where the proceeds of the work will be will be given correct
National Waqf org
47:08
so I've seen the list on your website you give to spiritual preservation and Civic and media and and
47:14
uh and economic relief and environmental issues so there is a number of areas that you focus on um if
47:20
someone uh originally you said initially you said that the W uh is design ated by the the person who
47:29
who uh gives the money designates how that fund is going to be used in your organization's case
47:37
you do that designation right so it's not the the person who puts the money into the work uh can't
47:42
say for example I want my money just to go into I don't know Youth Empowerment and Leadership you're
47:48
organizing that work yeah so that's a recognition is that is am I right that's correct so those six
47:54
cause areas were chosen by us because we feel that these are systematically the most important areas
48:01
for the Muslim Community in the UK to fund in order to preserve our existing institutions that
48:06
also to grow and develop the Muslim Community in the UK right and that's actually recently there independent research has been carried out that actually verify that the co areas that we have
48:16
selected are those areas which the leading Muslim thinkers within the UK and the Muslim Community
48:21
feel are the most important they're wide ranging and they're Broad and the reason is because we feel that these are the areas that the Muslim should focus on these are the areas areas that
48:31
the Muslim Community in the UK needs to focus on in order to develop themselves in the UK in order to ensure that their rights to practice Islam to practice normative Islam in the UK is
48:41
preserved so for our model is you give donation to National wealth and as I've mentioned previously
48:47
those donations will be invested the returns are then given as grants to any of these projects I give you an example of grants that we've already given yeah so we've given Grant to an organization
48:57
called spinny Hill so they work to empower uh Muslims that are battling drug addiction so
49:05
they work to rehabilitate those Muslims that are battling drug addiction yeah so using our grant
49:10
alhamdulillah spinning Hill was able to support individuals that were ostracized from their
49:16
families that had to give up their families in essence because they were suffering from addiction yeah so that's an example where your your donations are actively making a difference
49:26
to people on the ground saence Institute one of the donations that we gave was to uh to to fund
49:34
their Lighthouse project the lighthouse projects deals with Muslims that are having concerns with
49:39
regards to their faith or having doubts with regards to their faith we funded zua welcome which is a charity that actually provides Educational Services for refugees so those
49:49
refugees that come into the UK and the children that require madrasa Services then zua welcome
49:54
cers for these children so we provided a grant to these individuals so these are some of the courses that we've already supported so by donating by supporting our organization or by supporting a
50:04
generally your money will go that much further so we're saying that National off is not just about sustainability but it's about strategy it's about identifying the key causes that will use
50:16
the charity and that will use the donations to ensure that we are funding those Avenues
50:21
which are most desperately needed both in the UK and funding them correctly do you have to be uh
50:27
a rich person to put money into into alov you have to be a multi-millionaire so sometimes people ask
50:34
the question that how does w fit in the modern socio economic context yeah so as we've mentioned
50:41
previously it's not necessarily only the rich people that would designate property in this day
50:47
and age or in the in the time of the companions they were asset Rich yeah many of them at times would not have enough liquid Capital to be able to purchase their daily food but they own land
50:57
they owned assets and so they would designate property and land but you don't necessarily need to be rich in order to contribute to which is where National wealth comes in so we've used
51:07
the concept of cooling donations together we allow every Muslim in the UK regardless
51:14
of their financial capacity to get involved in a wak so where previously historically it may
51:21
have been okay if you've got excess property if you've got an asset that you want to donate as W
51:26
then you can do so we're saying no whatever you donate whatever amount you want to donate we're going to pull those donations and we will invest those donations into assets that will generate
51:36
returns so you have a part to play in W every Muslim in the UK has a role and can contribute
51:42
towards establishing of a w and how do we make sure that like what what's your um I don't know
National Waqf structure
51:48
your your procedures to make sure that this money is going to the good causes and like explain your
51:55
organization or structure okay so National wealth is a registered charity as we've mentioned we
52:01
have our investment Department the investment department overall we also have a Shar board so
52:06
we've got Scholars that sit on the Sharia board they ratify every activity within National walk sure so they are actively involved in ensuring that the Investments we make are Sharia compliant
52:16
the Investments we make are morally ethical as well and then even the grants we have a grant giving committee so the job of the grant giving committee is to ensure that the applications
52:26
that are coming in for Grants so from time to time periodically when we make an announcement
52:32
that National weth is now inviting applications so we may say for example National off is inviting applications for organizations that are working in the youth space so if your organization is working
52:42
in the youth space and you're not eligible to receive zaka funding then make an application to National wealth our grant giving committee will then grade those applications based on
52:52
longevity based on uniqueness Etc and then they will decide that which of the projects receives
52:57
the funding we then have an ongoing monitoring process which is not just the case of handing a
53:02
pile of cash to an organization rather we have an agreement in place with the organization
53:08
certain factor C an agreement in place with the organization whereby we will agree what
53:14
outcomes and what objectives the organization will achieve using the grant that we give them and then periodically we will actually actively monitor so we'll receive feedback from the organization
53:23
to say okay we agreed that the grant will be used for x Y and Z and you are using that for XY and z
53:28
or you face certain challenges shall we change that so National W has an investment committee
53:34
a grant giving committee all of this which is overseen by our Shia board and everything is
53:40
transparent which organizations have received our grants what they use those grants for all of this is in place so I one final question for you um like what do you see as the future of your
53:50
organization and alaf in general in the ukuk as I mentioned at the beginning that National wealth for the first objective of that National W is to create sustainable funding is to provide
53:59
strategic funding yeah but as part of that the second objective of national W is to empower organizations to set up their own a so what we want is we want mid we want Charities we want
54:09
organizations to set up their own a in order to ensure that they are sustainably funding
54:15
their own organizations that the Masjid is not always requesting donations from the community the organization is not constantly in need of funding in order to carry out their activities
54:24
but rather they have their own a in place that is going to provide the funding and we as National
54:29
wak are happy and ready to assist any individual any organization that wants to set up their own a
54:35
right and what we see ourselves is to create a structure whereby we work collaboratively with
54:40
all of the a in the UK to ensure that there are strict governance in place on how to set up a w so
54:45
we mentioned alhamdulillah we have a sh Bo we have scholarly input and so from a Islamic perspective
54:50
how does one go about setting up a w we've got the expertise in order to assist and advise them there
54:56
from legal perspective what's the most efficient and effective form of setting up a w in the UK to ensure that it's most tax efficient to ensure that the perpetuity of the asset and of the W
55:06
is in place so that's certain that that's some of the things that we're working towards what we see is we see the w space growing in the UK already in the last two to three years there are a number
55:16
of a that have started in the UK though they're all in the infancy stage but alhamdulillah this
55:21
Sunnah and this tradition is now beginning to be revived in the UK space and alhamdulillah for that and so we see ourselves working collaboratively with all of these a in the UK to ensure that
55:32
some of the mistakes that are currently being made in the humanitarian sector whereby certain
55:38
area certain countries are overfunded and other areas are underfunded are not replicated in the w space to ensure that there's a collaborative approach between the a to say that okay all of
55:48
these causes are equally important and we will work collectively collaboratively to ensure that
55:54
all of these projects are funded the way they should be and they are actively monitored and
55:59
together we will ensure that the Muslim Community in the UK grows I think we've uh had a really
56:05
fascinating conversation here about walk thank you so much for your time no problem jaak for inviting
56:10
me please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube
56:16
channels and head over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter
56:27
okay
English