Ep 197. - Israel is Protected by a Wall of Arab Rulers – Dr Azzam Tamimi
When we talk about Gaza, we often speak of it in isolation from the broader Muslim world. When the Muslim countries are mentioned, it’s normal to suggest that they have given up on the Palestinian cause. The Abraham Accords are oft-cited as an example of the Muslim world turning its back on a beleaguered member. But is that really the case? Is the future fortunes of the Palestinians linked to the Muslim rulers? To help us untangle fact from fiction, I am happy to have Dr Azzam Tamimi back on the show. Dr Azzam is a Palestinian activist, academic and broadcaster and travels extensively to the Muslim world.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
have the Arabs given up on Gaza the Arabs everywhere from the Atlantic Ocean to the
0:05
Arabian Gulf are struggling to regain their freedom and now we see Syria uh is setting
0:12
an example that what we might see be being Fallen by other places in the the strong man
0:18
is back across these Arab countries the Arabs are living in a prison their jailers are their
0:23
rulers Palestine will not be completely free until the Arabs around it are free those on the
0:30
left misunderstand what's going on in our region I personally gave up on George Galloway more than
0:36
10 years ago the Iranians need to reconsider their position you need to attend to your own
0:42
wounds first Zionism in Palestine and despotism in the Arab world are two sides of the same
0:48
coin when we talk about Gaza we often speak of it in isolation of the broader Muslim world when the
0:59
Muslim country are mentioned it's normally to suggest they have given up on the Palestinian cause the Abraham cause is off cited as an example of how the Muslim world has turned
1:09
away from their beleaguered Muslim Breen but is that really the case is the future fortunes of
1:17
the Palestinians linked to the Muslim rulers to help us untangle fact from fiction I'm happy to
1:23
have back on the show Dr aam Tamimi Dr aam is a Palestinian activist an academic and broadcaster
1:30
and travels extensively to the Muslim World dram and welcome back to the think Muslim thank you
1:39
for having me again it's always a pleasure to have you on the show and and and in many ways um today's conversation I think is is quite important because we've got the backdrop of
1:48
Syria we've got the uh the ongoing genocide in Gaza you know which is now coming to 15 months
1:56
uh we have a a situation in the Muslim world where many Western commentators have now suggested that
2:03
the Arabs have given up on Gaza I mean maybe I should start with that question have the Arabs
2:08
given up on Gaza well uh the Arabs as peoples as masses as individuals never give on Palestine or
Arabs gave up on Gaza?
2:20
on Gaza yeah um sometimes people uh conflate governments with peoples and and that's part
2:30
of the problem the problem in the Arab world is that these governments are not representative
2:37
of the people they rule these governments are the product of the world order that started forming uh
2:47
at the uh by the end of the first world war and was completely formed by the end of the second
2:54
World War uh a world order that brought to an end the ottoman calipat uh and created in much of its
3:05
territory uh entities loyal to the victors in the wars uh so Palestine is one of the symptoms a more
3:18
serious symptom that sometimes we tend to overlook is the fact that the Arabs are in shackles the
3:25
Arabs are not free the Arabs everywhere from the Atlantic Ocean to the Arabian Gulf are struggling
3:33
to regain their freedom and their dignity and uh Syria is just an example of this I mean we uh 14
3:43
years ago or 13 years ago we had the eruption of the Arab Spring starting with Tunisia moving
3:49
to Egypt Syria Libya Yemen and partly Iraq uh threatening even other places with similar uh
4:00
developments but then this was uh somehow suppressed um and the fire was extinguished
4:12
uh through the efforts of a global Coalition uh some local uh Powers more some International
4:22
Powers who feared the change came together and suppressed it now we see Syria uh is setting an
4:30
example that what we might see be being followed very soon by other places in the region which is
4:37
our Revolution is not over what happened 12 13 years ago of suppressing that Revolution was an
4:46
end of one round in this process now we have the second round there may be a third round than even
4:55
a fourth round and and therefore you see uh if you if we if if I were to diag diagnose what's
5:04
wrong with the Arabs it's not that Israel is occupying Palestine because that's a symptom
5:11
but it is the fact that the Arabs are in a prison the the Arabs are living in a prison and their
5:19
jailers are their rulers who deny them their basic rights and who steal their wealth and smuggle it
5:29
elsewhere uh so if if you look at it this way then you will come to the conclusion that I have come
5:36
to which is the fact that the Arabs have not uh given up on Palestine I want to understand
Arab World and Israel
5:42
the link between the future of the Arab world in particular and the future of the Palestinians and
5:49
where there is a connection I'm reminded of aash shalam uh his book on the titled the iron wall
5:56
and the idea is that uh the Arabs have to give up on any any Prospect or any belief that Palestine
6:02
can be liberated from the Israelis um can you just plot out that connection between the Arab rulers
6:09
on the one hand and the security and safety of Israel on the other well Israel could not have
6:15
lasted this long without the continuation of these despotic regimes across the Arab
6:21
world because it's not just American weapons and Western money and Western political and diplomatic
6:30
uh leverage that is keeping Israel intact yeah it's the existence of these Arab regimes who have
6:37
been suppressing their peoples preventing them from lending a helping hand to their brethren
6:44
in Palestine uh it it is uh the duty of the Palestinians to Rise Against occupation that's
6:53
their Destiny the people of Gaza the people of the West Bank all the sacrifices they're making
6:59
that's their Destiny and it it's their duty at the same time yet I firmly believe that Palestine will
7:08
not be completely free until the Arabs around it are free so it's it's really one project it's the
7:16
same project we're talking about here and that's why early on uh when the syrians took over uh uh
7:25
main cities recently and the regime came to an end I wrote an article uh talking about how uh the
7:34
liberation of uh the Levant is a a glad Tiding for the Palestinians because the moment these Arabs
7:43
are liberated from their tyrants uh time will will come soon when Palestine is uh is helped by these
7:55
Arabs and when and that's why the Israelis are worried of course Israelis are very worried about
8:01
what had happened in uh in in Syria of course there's a counterargument to that that many on the
Syria distraction?
8:07
left imp particular put forward and that is that Syria is a distraction in many ways um gazda was
8:14
was the focus and the fate of the Palestinians uh is is now in the balance because uh you now
8:22
have uh Syria which has gone through this this Revolution and um some may even suggest that
8:29
it's now given Israel a better opportunity on its border than it had with Assad who was part of the
8:35
access of resistance the So-Cal access un untangle that uh that that uh those Notions for me please
8:42
well there are people especially those on the left who misunderstand what's going on in our region um
8:53
they are they are anti zionists they're against occupation they're against American imperialism
9:00
but they don't seem to see that the Arabs as a whole have are are in desperate need of uh
9:12
regaining their freedom and human dignity yeah um and I have a problem with the way
9:18
the way they're they're making a distinction between the two they're not they're not making the connection um that uh uh it's okay you can support Palestine but at the same time you can
9:32
forget about what Assad did to his people in Syria I mean how how can anybody accept that if you know
9:39
exactly what Assad was doing to his people in Syria uh what every other ruler in the region
9:46
is doing to his uh people the tens of thousands of uh prisoners political prisoners in Arab jails
9:56
from the Atlantic to the gulf uh isn't that cause for concern so you see we we need to have we need
10:07
really really need to have an open dialogue with the with our friends our comrades on the left
10:16
because we we do work together on certain issues but we had uh disagreements and contradictions
10:23
on other issues uh whenever we um for instance demonstrated the against the war in Iraq we came
10:31
together we worked together when we demonstrated against Zionism in Palestine we worked together
10:37
but when we went to demonstrate against tyranny and despotism in certain Arab country they never
10:47
show up they have a completely different I don't know Reckoning probably uh or maybe
10:54
they have a different analysis of the situation um I wonder whether part of this is ideological
11:01
I'm not sure but for me it's very clear I stand with the oppressed irrespective of their religion
11:09
irrespective of their color irrespective of their ethnicity or nationality and uh I cannot see how
11:17
I uh I'm expected to support the steadfastness of the Palestinian people without supporting the
11:24
struggle of the syrians for freedom I mean that's really important coming from you because you know I think in many ways we know at least from a British context you are probably one of the
Arab Spring
11:35
the key Palestinian activists at least you know I've I've experienced your activism over a number
11:40
of decades what about this this argument that's presented that uh the Arab Spring in many ways was
11:48
us inspired and we all we often hear fragments of evidence to suggest that uh some of those
11:54
demonstrations in 2011 in Syria in later on in Libya and elsewhere uh was CIA funded in inverted
12:02
Commerce I mean how how much credibility do you give to to that level of collusion no credibility
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whatsoever none whatsoever why do you need funding to get people to demonstrate against oppression
12:14
yeah what what is it there you you're going to fund I mean their fast food meanss or what I mean
12:21
what people took to the streets because they they they just couldn't take it anymore um there was
12:28
so much despotism so so much corruption in Tunisia in Egypt in Syria in Lebanon in sorry in Libya in
12:38
Yemen in Iraq that the the people felt that they needed to change their their conditions and why
12:46
do people always have to attribute things to the United States of America as if America was the god
12:52
I mean America is just a political entity it's a country it has a government it it's ruled by
12:59
people who uh make mistakes and Grave mistakes sometimes and they they blundered in Iraq they
13:04
blundered in Afghanistan they blundered before that in Vietnam everywhere I mean since the second world war American policy makers have been making blunders uh when something good happens to a
13:17
certain Nation when people Rise Against despotism then we uh bring in the conspiracy theory to
13:25
explain it in that terms and attribute uh this to to the Americans that that's real nonsense I mean
13:32
I know I know I know for sure how things started in Tunisia how things started in Syria in Egypt
13:39
purely uh indigenous uh local uh motivated by uh the need to be free from the shackles of despotism
USA and Arab Spring
13:51
it's true when you suggest that we overplay the the role of America in the Muslim world and and
13:58
almost give it a like a Godlike uh impression however we do know that since the Arab Spring
14:06
um the first iteration of the Arab Spring as you mentioned there have been lots of counter revolutions across the Muslim Egypt uh Libya is going through something quite similar at
14:15
the moment with hafta and and UAE in collusion probably with the Americans are um are trying to
14:22
counter that Sudan is is going for a horrific time and again UAE is is part and parcel of
14:28
that Tunisia has failed in in many respects maybe that was a a more homegrown failure but there is
14:34
a failure there and the the strong man is back uh across these Arab countries we have seen the hand
14:41
of America in pacifying if not neutralizing these genuine revolutions I mean uh is that how you read
14:50
it is America quite Central to what happened to Mory for example after onee in government you know
14:56
Mercy uh was removed from Power by the generals how do you how do you see that well if you if you
15:02
are a superpower and you have interests around the world and you want to maintain your Hony you will
15:08
always uh try to reduce your losses when something beyond your uh own uh planning your own thinking
15:19
happen you try to limit your uh your losses and hopefully magnify your gains that's natural
15:29
in other words we should look at America as interacting or reacting instead of initiating
15:37
that's the problem I have with conspiracy theorists they think that America initiates everything no America or any other power in the world human power uh they want to maintain their
15:51
hegemony serve save their interests uh by planning best how to deal with developments okay the Arab
16:02
the Arab world Rose the Arab world wanted to change those regimes uh which mostly were lackies
16:09
to the Americans or or at least did things to appease uh in a in a manner that that appeases
16:17
the Americans and now the Americans needed to do something about it now to be fair initially the
16:23
Americans as well as the Europeans were willing to accommod date the changes were willing to adapt to
16:34
Mori being the first democratically elected president of a big country like Egypt yet
16:43
it was local powers in Egypt itself including the military it was Regional powers like Saudi Arabia
16:51
and the United Arab Emirates who insisted that someone like Mory could never be allowed should
16:57
never be allowed to rule because if he succeeded uh in lifting Egypt uh from the U the the from
17:08
corruption from despotism that would then be a model to to to be looked uh for by the rest of
17:18
the people in the region and the Saudis were terrified the emiratis were terrified others were terrified in the region and that's when they started sending emissaries to Washington to London
17:29
to Paris to Berlin to tell the westerners that this is dangerous you shouldn't adapt to this
17:37
you shouldn't accommodate it that's how I see the process uh happened and of course Mory may Allah
17:45
have mercy on his soul didn't have any powers because the Deep state was all against him uh
17:54
part of the business Community was against him the media was against him and now with billions of dollars being pumped in by the Saudis and and the emiratis and with the green light given by the
18:05
Americans and the Europeans he was easily toppled but it wasn't the Americans or the Europeans who
18:13
said initially no we won't allow this actually if you prove yourself and if you establish yourself
18:24
eventually they will have to deal with you and we seeing this in Syria this is not to assume that Syria is going to have a an easy ride it's going to to be a very rough ride also for Syria there
18:35
are so many challenges and there are uh many Powers uh local Regional and international who
18:41
will try and sabotage the syrians the Syrian experience but at least we can see initially
18:50
that the world is saying okay if this is what the Syrian people want we have to respect it
18:56
but we have concerns we have conditions we have this we have that okay you can have whatever you
19:02
like of concerns or conditions eventually it is the Syrian people who should determine their own
Syria and Egypt
19:08
future uh I want to speak specifically talk about Syria in a second but uh you mentioned
19:14
something in your earlier um responses which I found really interesting and and that is
19:20
you've singled out Syria and Egypt as been two important states to have freedom or for the
19:26
people to have to experience freedom in order for uh Palestinians to have their own freedom
19:32
and expand on that why are these two countries so important to the freedom of of Palestinians
19:38
like yourself well first of all there are the two two of three countries in the region that border
19:44
Palestine now we have Jordan Syria and Egypt yeah Jordan is a very small country Jordan is without
19:52
resources Jordan was created by the British and continues to be maintained by The Americans
19:58
for the purpose of uh prolonging American hijam in the region so forget about Jordan for a while
20:08
uh although of course the Jordanian population is of strategic importance for for the people of
20:14
Palestine but Syria and Egypt are both resourceful countries they're both big countries with big
20:22
populations and if they are democratically elected and if their peoples are free from despotism that
20:30
will have immediate uh and dramatic uh impact on how things happen in Palestine at least it
20:39
would deter the Israelis at least let me ask you then about Syria now Syria has gone through this
Syria and Israel
20:46
amazing revolution in this last month and I think most people had given up on on Syria sadly uh but
20:53
the turnaround of events is is truly a sign of Allah subhana tala's magnificence I think and and
20:58
I know you've referred to this as well in the past um but Syria has been very uh tight lipped about
21:06
Israel and some have uh in particular the Iranians I found have have made have have pointed that out
21:13
as some form of collusion there was a a statement made uh by the a governor in Syria the other day
21:20
which some pointed to to suggest that the new Administration in Syria does not want to challenge
21:27
Israel in fat there was some conversation about maybe even normalizing between the two countries which I think was dispelled by jalani um why has Syria been quite diplomatic let's say about the
21:39
Israelis especially since Israelis have been bombing parts of of Syrian infrastructure and
21:45
and and of course has invaded has have invaded the the Golan hiatts um yeah explain you like from a
21:52
Palestinian perspective do you worry about about the Syrian position on Israel well I personally
21:59
fully understand that for the syrians at the moment the priority is to rebuild their lives
22:06
you have a country that is almost entirely destroyed yeah big cities when you see the
22:14
pictures you think it's Gaza yeah you can really hardly tell the difference between what happened
22:20
to Aleppo Aleppo or uh some Palestinian camps like aluk in Damascus and what happened to RAF or or
22:30
to Bahia or any part of of Gaza um so the priority for them is to really rebuild the country and
22:40
the priority for them is to U get their people back home there are millions of syrians who were
22:48
banished and they live in the diaspora and some not in a very wholesome uh situation so you want
22:56
to bring them back and you want to absorb you want there's there are so many challenges uh that uh
23:03
need immediate attention uh however uh of course the Iranians and some of those who are supportive
23:14
of the Iranians might make statements accusing the Syrian Revolution as being associated with
23:23
the Americans or with the zist that's nonsense of course I don't accept any of this yeah
23:29
I I can see that this is a Syrian Revolution a genuine Revolution against despotism and against
23:36
corruption and alhamdulillah it has succeeded yes however statements made by by some well
23:43
so far we've just had one official yeah uh I think his name is mAh Marwan uh the governor
23:50
of Damascus Damascus yeah uh well first of all as a governor of d m muscus he should not have
23:57
spoken about matters of international politics or Foreign Affairs that's that's not his his business
24:05
yes secondly if he made those statements he he must be uh a fool uh probably somebody whispered
24:18
into his ear uh trying to convince him that the heart to Washington uh can be reached via
24:25
T Aviv this is a slow that some Arabs hoisted at some time right that led to the to the abrahamic
24:35
agree uh treaties or records and and and it's it's nonsense uh however after he made those uh after
24:45
PNR um published a report about what he allegedly said to them he came up with a video clip denying
24:58
that he said any of it now if you ask me personally I think he said it but I think he was a fool but that that that that now he is denying that he that he ever said it well uh we
25:12
hope that the uh uh senior officials in the new Administration will come out with clear statements
25:21
we're not asking them to wage war to liberate the Gan Heights or which is Syrian by the way or
25:27
liberate any part of pal but we're asking them to make their position clear VAV the Zionist project
25:36
Zionism is a threat to humanity Zionism Zionism is a threat to all the Arabs and the Muslims the
25:43
Zionist occupation of Palestine is illegitimate and therefore no one should be allowed uh within
25:53
the Syrian Administration to play with this uh with this issue um and U that's why I have advised
26:02
our Syrian brothers that uh they needed to run training courses for their newly appointed senior
26:10
officials who deal with the media not everybody needs to deal with the media but if you want to deal with the media especially the foreign media the Western media you need to understand how to
26:20
deal with them because they will they will they will ask you questions and some of these questions are going to be tough they they are going to set traps for you so you need to avoid falling
26:29
into the into those traps so I I advise them that their officials need to have some uh specialized
26:37
training courses on how to deal with the media so you you accept I mean you know a a governor here
Syria’s position
26:44
of there may make some Ry comments but you accept the basic premise that the Syrian administration
26:49
at this stage has to create a space for itself where it can build and rebuild its country and uh
26:55
build on capacity and any uh conversation about you know liberating Goen Heights or liberating
27:04
Gaza is is worthless or it's a it's a uh you know it's it's talk which isn't going to help
27:10
the situation in any practical in any practical form what about how do we square that with you
27:16
know I know you are very conversent in in sort of theam Shar when it comes to uh defending one's
27:23
land and we know from a young age I remember at madas side there's a very basic premise
27:28
I I learned which is that if your land is occupied it's your responsibility to defend yourself and
27:36
if you can't then the Muslims surrounding you have to come to your Aid and the Muslims Until
27:41
the Whole World's Muslims have to come to your a and so there may be some an argument that some
27:46
Muslims put forward maybe naively but put forward to say that the first thing the Syrian government
27:52
need to do to to uh fulfill its obligations is to come to the aid of their brethren in Palestine as
28:01
a as a Palestinian and as someone who who I know is an Islamic thinker how do you understand that
28:07
well no you cannot be so uh deeply wounded and stand up to attend to the wounds of others you
28:19
need to attend to your own wounds first yeah you need to heal your own ailments um so I I I fully
28:28
understand that Syria in its in its current position cannot do much in terms of lending
28:36
support uh to Palestine or liberating the golen heights uh but what I am expecting from the Syrian
28:47
Brothers is to have a Clarity of vision Vis A the Zionist project uh and to uh draw the line yeah
28:58
yes we cannot at the moment do anything and this is not our priority that's fully understandable
29:04
but we would never recognize the legitimacy of the occupation of the Goen Heights or the occupation of any parts of Palestine from gazda to the Golan this is all Arab Muslim land uh
29:15
this much has to be said um but I do I do F fully understand this is a a terribly uh wounded country
29:28
you you you need to really heal it first before you think about anything else you you followed
Arab spring failures
29:35
the Arab Spring the first iteration of the Arabs being very closely and now we've had a number of
29:41
failed attempts Tunisia is probably an example Egypt for sure Libya Sudan um you know Yemen uh
29:49
Iraq to a degree you know these are in many ways failures or at least they're unfinished when it
29:55
comes to Aros spring um Syria has through an armed struggle has managed to remove this despotic ruler
30:03
what lessons can the new Syrian State learn from this first cycle of the Arab Spring well the first
30:10
lesson is that this wasn't really an absolute failure that was as I mentioned earlier a first
30:17
round yeah in a continuous process of Revolution that eventually will deliver right uh but secondly
30:29
um that A Change Is Not uh such a major change doesn't come free of charge the Syrian people uh
30:41
offered so many sacrifices Millions have lost their lives Millions were banished uh country
30:51
destroyed um but it wasn't it wasn't really the a militarization of the Revolution that
31:00
brought about the current result I I I make a distinction between the two yeah I'm still in
31:07
favor of the opinion that the militarization of the Revolution early on wasn't a good thing for
31:14
the revolution it didn't serve that because it provided the regime and its supporters
31:19
International supporters especially Iran and Russia with a justification to come in and use
31:28
Force to crush the revolution yeah however it's it's really late latter developments I mean there
31:36
were there were a number of factors that came together and precipitated the the uh the current
31:42
situation we probably don't have time to to to go through them uh but uh the regime itself has
31:50
proven to has proven to be horor uh incapable of protecting itself the Russians were increasingly
31:59
preoccupied with uh Ukraine the Iranians uh also suffered a lot because of the war in
32:06
Lebanon hisbah had to withdraw from Syria uh and the idlib region where the provisional government
32:16
has been functioning for the past decade or so uh uh was transformed into um a launching pant for
32:27
the current process but the current process wasn't planned uh even uh the edlib uh government all it
32:38
had in mind was really expanding the region detering attacks against it probably take
32:46
halab or Aleppo in but they never expected the regime to fall uh so quickly the regime itself
32:55
probably was taken by surprise everybody was taken by surprise so one can really write a thesis about
33:05
the various factors that came together in order to facilitate the victory that we have seen if we
33:14
were to draw comparisons between um the example of model of Syria yes there was an arm struggle
Egypt’s deep state
33:21
and the state fell apart uh and so it became relatively easy then to Capital Damascus but if
33:29
we were to draw uh uh parallels between that and say Egypt where there is a deep State and a deep
33:36
state is extremely powerful maybe it's a mixture of army personnel and and the generals and and
33:43
I don't know a secular liberal Elite um it just seems to me that the Egyptian state is far more
33:51
cohesive than maybe the Syrian state is that how you read it you know how how how could how can
33:57
can one bring down the Deep state if it's not through an armed struggle say in Egypt well indeed
34:03
the Deep state in Egypt is much more cohesive much more powerful um cannot be compared with
34:10
Syria because remember the syrians had to call the Iranians in yeah uh and then the Russians in 2015
34:19
because they simply couldn't uh protect the regime yeah uh yet in Egypt the security agencies is the
34:28
Army in particular all intact all they they act as a as a as a block yeah uh that uh controls the
34:41
country controls the economy in the country yeah uh it might seem difficult to envisage today uh
34:50
the collapse of the deep state in Egypt yes but it it is possible right it is possible if the
34:57
people of Egypt one day wake up to to start another Revolution that they decide this time
35:05
to sustain and maintain for as long as it takes I mean in the in the first round one of the uh one
35:15
one I don't call it a mistake I call it anad in order to save the blood of the Egyptians was to
35:21
reconcile with the Army and to work with the Army uh through a process of establishing a democratic
35:32
Egypt of course the Army wasn't serious about this wasn't honest about it and uh it was waiting for
35:41
the right moment to uh uh to attack and have and perform the coup yeah I think the next round will
35:49
be different uh is there likely to be violence in it I really don't know I hope not I wouldn't want
35:57
to see any Bloodshed uh but if the Army Falls in Egypt because of so much corruption because
36:04
of so much oppression and injustices and uh it is possible that we will see units turning against
36:12
each other but what you really need in any of the other Arab countries unlike the previous round is
36:20
a a sustained Rebellion uh that continues until the Deep state is dis dismantled you
36:29
cannot rebuild on an existing state you have to dismantle it can I go back to my original
Arabs and Gaza
36:37
question about whether the Arab people have given up on Palestine um I I you know I I sense it
36:43
whenever I speak to any Muslim let alone an Arab uh there is deep frustration and anger and worry
36:50
and anxiety of about what's happening in Palestine but you know if you visit any of the big cities
36:57
in the mus anman or Cairo or any of these places you will see that there are Muslims going on you
37:04
know our brothers and sisters are going about their business uh and and tended to their
37:09
luxuries even uh in a way oblivious that a few 100 kilometers away less than 100 kilometers away in
37:16
some instances there are people being completely annihilated um like is there is there no personal
37:23
culpability there uh that we have we have got to a stage where uh we continue our lives and maybe
37:31
that applies to us here in the west equally I suppose but we have we continue our lives yet there is a genocide taking place um I think the general feeling everywhere and I've just
37:43
come back from Jordan yeah is that uh we feel a lot of pain for our brothers in Gaza we wish we
37:52
could do something for them yeah but we feel we are unable to do anything right simply because we
37:58
live uh in a situation where these governments um their own priority really their their main
38:09
priority at the present time is to prevent that aid from reaching the Palestinians yes and uh
38:19
we have reached the stage where even if you tweet something uh or post something on the social media
38:27
yeah you might end up in prison and people generally are worried about what's likely
38:33
to happen to them or to their children so there is there there is pain and there is fear at the
38:39
same time uh so the Threshold at which there is an eruption hasn't been reached yet yeah but that
38:48
doesn't mean it will not be reached we reached it before in 2011 and we might reach it again anytime
38:57
soon can I ask you about Saudi Arabia um there's conversations and you we pick it up in the press
Saudi Arabia
39:05
that uh Muhammad bin Salman the day facto leader of Saudi Arabia is uh is currently involved in
39:12
the negotiations with America and Israel uh to possibly tie in uh the you know an expansion
39:19
of the Abraham Accords to some form of peaceful settlement in inverted commas in in Gaza um I mean
39:26
how do you read what's going on there in terms of you know s bin Salman's normalization efforts but
39:32
also uh the idea that possibly a ceasefire or even a peace negotiation uh could could you know could
39:41
be connected to to his efforts to to create some form of Security deal with the Americans well it
39:47
is um unlikely that the Saudis can do much so long as the war is still uh raging right so that's why
39:57
every body is waiting for Trump to come and Trump is their friends in as much as he is the friend
40:02
of Netanyahu he is the friend of the MBS and the mbz yeah um now if the war comes to an end and it
40:12
all depends on what sort of conditions the war comes to an end in yeah they might resume what
40:20
they were uh talking about uh on the eve of the 7th of October 2023 the Saudis were preparing to
40:28
sign the abrahamic Accords yeah uh and they want to do that but of course they cannot because it
40:36
looks awkward I mean how can you uh when the war is going on the way it is when this uh genocide
40:43
is being perpetrated by the Israelis every day um so time will only tell I think for the for
40:51
the time being what Muhammad bin Salman and the other Arab rulers are doing uh is to maintain the
40:59
populations under control and he himself admitted in an interview uh previously that uh he doesn't
41:09
himself care about Palestine or the Palestinian issue but he knows that the Saudis do care his
41:14
people do care how do we know that well well we know from uh a poll that was conducted recently
41:22
I think a very high percentage of the Saudis in excess of 90% are concerned about Palestine
41:28
concerned about Gaza you know the the the these are Arab Muslim peoples I mean if I think well of
41:37
myself I have to think well of them yes and I know that they feel for us they feel for our people in
41:42
Palestine yeah but again they are in shackles and there are to today there are in excess of
41:48
30,000 political prisoners in Saudi jails many of them are Scholars uh reputable some of them are
41:59
human rights Defenders some of them are thinkers lecturers so you see the the the repression that
42:07
is that is used on the people is is so huge that people become frightened over the pasio um we on
Iran
42:16
this show have been quite critical of Iran's role in the region and in Syria but of course we can't
42:21
take away from the fact that um Iran has played at least some role in uh in funding for proxy its
42:30
proxies like Hezbollah and uh and these proxies have been quite uh prominent in uh in weighing the
42:38
Israelis down especially on the southern Border in Lebanon uh and then of course the hoies in in
42:44
Yemen now as a Palestinian how do you weigh up or how do you observe Iran's very belligerent
42:50
role in the Muslim world and and it's its horrible role in say Syria but also its role in in helping
42:57
Hamas and helping the resistance in in Palestine well I really hope that the Iranians uh learn a
43:05
lesson from what happened in Syria yeah that you cannot claim to support Palestine and they
43:11
do support Palestine I'm not denying that yeah uh while at the same time you support despotism and
43:19
you support dictators who are killing their own people the Israelis are killing the Palestinians
43:26
but Bashar al- Assad was killing the syrians and and that contradiction is going to cost the
43:32
Iranians a lot I think the Iranians have already lost a lot yeah and it's a Pity because in 1979
43:41
the Iranians had a revolution against dictatorship against the Sha and every Arab dictator that the
43:52
Iranians today have good relations with is another replica of the Sha is just doing what the Sha was
44:01
doing to the Iranians um it's really a Pity and it's very sad that uh uh Iran and its proxies
44:11
are losing as a result because they couldn't make that distinction um or or they couldn't see that
44:22
Zionism in Palestine and despotism in the Arab world are two sides of the same coin and therefore
44:29
you have you you cannot go to bed with one of them and claim to fight another uh I regret that we
44:38
recently heard uh statements that are not helpful at all that are not promising uh from the superior
44:46
leader of the U Revolution K as well as from the from the foreign minister the Iranians need to
44:54
reconsider their position they need to realign with the masses rather than with the governments
45:03
and you cannot create proxies at the expense of uh the rights of the indigenous populations there
America’s decline
45:11
is a a conversation or an argument that behind Israel of course is the billions of dollars of
45:17
us funding uh and United States has a cast iron security arrangement with the uh with Israel
45:27
uh and so uh if any state if any Muslim peoples were to challenge uh Israel hegemony in the region
45:36
it's really challenging America and so from a from a sort of tactical or strategic perspective uh do
45:43
we need to see the decline of America before uh one can see Gaza and the West Bank and Palestine
45:51
liberated from this settler Colonial Enterprise well the decline of America is inevitable because
45:57
America is an oppressive power it's a tyrannical power and these sort of powers don't last look how
46:06
many uh how how much how much uh misery America has caused to the world yes in Asia in Africa in
46:17
Latin America in Europe everywhere so the American decline is not necessarily just linked to what
46:27
it does to us in Palestine or in the Arab world yet I think we sh we we as Arabs and and Muslims
46:37
cannot wait yeah for America to decline in order to perform our duties we have duties to undertake
46:44
and that's what the people of Gaza have done they they they they they they did not wait for
46:50
for America to decline in order to uh rise against their oppressors yet there is a price to be paid
46:59
for that and Gaza is paying a a hefty price and we need uh to come out of this experiment with a
47:09
conviction that we cannot gain our freedom without paying the price is going to be a very Hefty price
George Galloway
47:18
um going back to that discussion we had earlier on about the left I know you've uh uh you had a
47:24
relationship with George Galloway and you know at one stage in the Iraq War uh there was a a
47:29
close relationship with uh the left and and uh you know there was a Meeting of Minds between
47:36
the Muslim Community and and the anti-imperialists George gal recently said that he's given up on the
47:41
Arabs and I think it was in the context of the of what's happened in Syria had it didn't go his way in effect um like can you comment on on that and and maybe sort of the ongoing I don't know if you
47:53
still have a relationship with him but you know your feelings about uh what he said at about the
47:59
Arabs well indeed in the anti-war alliance uh we had very close relationship with George Galloway
48:06
and the left in general but uh I personally gave up on George on George Galloway more than 10 years
48:12
ago yes uh we had a disagreement over Syria uh he stood by Bashar we stood by the people that
48:21
Bashar was persecuting yeah and uh he even once threatened me um because uh I shared um a clip of
48:33
him in Parliament uh when he was um I think uh he was uh spoken against by the prime minister at the
48:47
time or something over his support for dictators in the Arab world right uh because I shared that
48:55
clip uh he contacted some of my friends and threatened me so I had no relationship with
49:02
him since then I feel sorry for him yes because if you support the Palestinians in their struggle
49:08
against Zionist oppression you should support the victims of Oppression everywhere yes this
49:18
is not ideological this is not left and right this is a human thing yeah uh why should the
49:25
Palestinian have have the right to be free from oppression but the syrians don't have that right
49:31
or the Egyptians don't have right everyone in the world has the right to be free from oppression one
Gaza
49:38
final question we've seen 15 months of genocide and um uh there are many people who are becoming
49:45
weary of just the the daily scenes on our social media feeds of hospitals uh being invaded of of
49:54
people burning in tents um uh it's horrific what we see on our screens and there is a feeling that
50:02
maybe of hopelessness that's that's seeping into the anti- Zionist movement the anti-war
50:10
movement uh we've tried everything you know we've demonstrated uh We've petitioned we've boycotted
50:17
but there is a resilience there uh and a collusion with the media and with the apparatus of the state
50:27
um you know as as a Palestinian as an activist there someone who's who's uh fought for Palestinian and and broader Muslim rights for for a very long time um like how do you perceive
50:39
that what we're going through at this moment in terms of emotions uh and feelings about about
50:45
this genocide yes I agree with you it's horrific uh especially that we see uh every minute new um
50:57
Images new footage of Bloodshed of Massacre of genocide of hospitals being burned down on the
51:05
patients and uh medical staff but for those or to those who have uh sense of hopelessness developing
51:15
as a result I'd say to them the Palestinians are not hopeless the people of Gaza themselves despite
51:22
all the pain are not hopeless there is a still resistance and Israelis are suffering and are
51:33
um taking casualties as a result um and I I think it's a matter of time when the balance of power
51:44
will be tilted in favor of the Palestinians uh so if the Palestinians have not given up if they
51:52
are not capitulating why should those who support them from Far uh have this sense of hopelessness
52:01
you should still have hope you should think of new ways and methods uh of expressing solidarity
52:09
and uh lending support to the Palestinians uh rather than falling into this trap of
52:15
hopelessness Dr aam Tamimi it's been a pleasure as always thank you so much for your time you're
52:22
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52:30
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