Ep 195. - Why the West Wants to Bring Down the New Syrian State - with Sami Hamdi (Part 2)
The situation in Germany is very tense for Muslims. The recent Christmas market attack has brought into focus how the political elites in the country malign muslim voices. but it goes deeper, there is a systematic campaign to make advocating for Palestine unlawful. Hebh Jamal is a Palestinian journalist and activist based in Germany , currently working on an upcoming documentary film, The Reason of State: Germany’s War on Palestinians.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
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remove Shar remove Islam foreign powers using those minority populations against
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him the Americans have said to me that I have to remove Shar Western Powers act against any whiff that Islam might be part of the government they're interested in making sure that Islam never
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manifests itself politically why care about what the West thinks in the first place here
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we go he's already compromised on Sharia Bashar Assad massacred tens of thousands
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of Syrian women Jeremy Bowen didn't ask about them first your more interested in alcohol and the Flesh of Syrian women are you still convinced that turkey was not the
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power behind this revolution I think that many people ascribe an omnipotence to the
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US that belongs solely to Allah subhana wa tala alone I didn't do the J but I'm going
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to tell the how it should be done Islam is Central to US foreign policy in the
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region in this second session of our 202 24 Roundup we have Sami Hamdi back on a show to
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discuss Syria in some more detail Syria is in many ways a ray of Hope but also raises all
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sorts of uncertainties for all of us what path will the Revolution take how do we assess galani
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and the rebel movement what are the demands of the regional and Global actors ideological and
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otherwise and how does Syria navigate Israel's anxieties about the new government and its
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Islamic color Sam once again and welcome back to the thinking Muslim uh Sammy uh the last time
Ahmed Al Sharaa
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we spoke we looked at uh Gaza and we looked at whole array of U issues that the Muslim umah had
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to Grapple with in 2024 and you gave some uh uh some nuggets of hope I suppose uh for 2025 today
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what I want to do is focus very specifically on the Syria challenge because I think it warrants
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a show in itself now we've had a month since um the Rebellion began and around three weeks since
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um in effect um Assad had has had left Damascus and and now we have a a rebel government or this
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new government uh led by HT HTS in power how do you rate um Ahmed as shar's Government so far or
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his interim government and some of the acts that he he's undertaken I think that when you look at
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the decisions that the new Syrian government has taken the statements that have come out from its
2:32
Representatives whether it's Ahmed Muhammad Al bash the new prime minister and these others I
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think it's clear that the overwhelming Focus or priority at the moment is how to ease the tensions
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or ease the concerns or ease any anxieties amongst minority groups within Syria itself I think the
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reason for that is that the analysis of the new government is that the backlash from foreign
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powers will not be manifested by a foreign army but will be manifested by taking advantage of any
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anxiety amongst the minority groups to use it as a Cassis belly or to use it as an excuse to either
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continue sanctioning the government in Damascus or to use it as an excuse to start arming militias or
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to use their anxiety as an excuse as to Strongarm the government in Damascus and I think what the
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focus of this government is is to try to assure these minorities that oh alawi there's no need
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to go to Iran we're not going to take revenge on you for what Assad did oh Christians there's no
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need for you to go to the US or to go to Russians we're going to protect you we're going to allow you to celebrate Christmas we'll even make it a public holiday and add an extra public holiday
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something that even Western governments don't do Muslims are larger in terms of percentage here in the UK the UK government doesn't make Eid the public holiday ahed has gone above and
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beyond even Western governments to reassure minorities that there will be nothing done to harm them and they will be safe and even videos that went viral of Christmas trees being Burt or
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the like it turned out that it was a fake video and there were videos instead of his Fighters
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providing security for Christians to do Chris I think the reason why Ahmed is so focused on
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this is that even when you look at the headlines Candace owens's immediate reaction to Syria was
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Christians are about to be killed the immediate concern was over the shrine of s z so ahed
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ended up sending troops there in order to prevent anybody from violating that particular Shrine and I also think that when you look at the statements coming out from Israel which said that we need to
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go and support the Kurds now in order to prevent them from being under the fold of Damascus ahed
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Shar is trying now to appeal also to the curs to say we have no problems with them whatsoever the SDF needs to put down its arms there's talk suggestions of discussions between them erdogan
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wants to crush them but the idea being is that what is the greatest threat that I am facing now
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immediately and Ahmed believes the greatest threat is not minority populations but foreign powers
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using those minority populations against him and he's trying to cut the road by going to them
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directly in Aleppo and the like and telling them I'm going to look after you you're going to be
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safe whatever fears you have about Islam I assure you that any policy that we make will not harm you
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and so far at least from the statements coming out from the leaders of these minority groups it does appear to be working I mean is that Ahmed Asar being clever or do you think that uh he's
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overcompensation here and it's a bit too much the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam I don't want to compare him to the current leadership in Syria but rather using it as
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a maxim or rule before he enters qur he gives amnesty or gives security to the leader of qur
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Abu sufyan yes and he announces that anybody who stays in their home is safe and anybody in the home of Abu sufyan is safe and remember sufyan is an individual who when he meets with the prophet
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Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam beforehand in order to discuss the surrender of qur wants
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to chop off Abu sufyan head and so do some of the other sahab it's Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam who comes out and says that he's safe when he's there I don't think there's anything
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necessarily wrong with the idea of trying to reassure the civilian population that the age
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of War is truly finished remember Ahmed Shar has entered Damascus him and his groups as an umbrella
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force of more than 26 27 different factions according to reports Ahmed has to try to how do
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I unite these 26 27 different factions how do I if I look at Tunisia and Egypt UAE and Saudi Arabia
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ran wild in trying to topple the democratically elected governments over there how can I reassure them there's the aim of the game for Ahmed at this moment in time is I need to make sure I shut the
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doors of where the fitna can come from where these issues can come from I think that some of accus them are overcompensating although I don't necessarily agree
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I think mely if we make a comparison I think that he's gone further in terms of providing security for Christmas which is perfectly fine we have reports of the Jews celebrating their
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holidays in Medina and the prophet Muhammad asking about that which is where we got the fasting forh when you asked why you celebrating him he said this is the day M was saved and he
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said we are you know we we are we have a more Primacy to M we will fast on this day but the
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point is here they were celebrating it I don't think there's anything wrong in that I do think
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that the addition of an extra day for a public holiday to celebrate Christmas certainly reflects
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an awareness of the deep sensitivities amongst Western Powers towards any form of Islam in
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governance and the impact that Islam might have and I think that when you look at Sudan for example when in n in 1984 was threatened by the US Envoy n adage impos not impos Shar
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but added sh to the Constitution imposed implies the people didn't want it when announced Shar in
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1983 or 1982 the US Envoy visited him in about 1984 and said to n that either you
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remove Shar or we will bring you down this spe we will topple you and nir famously one of his
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advisers walked in on him and nir was lying down and he said what's wrong Mr President he said the Americans have said to me that I have to remove Shar if I remove it my people will hang me and
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if I don't remove it America will hang me and I don't know if either step I'm going to be ruined in Sudan now one of the reasons there's a genocide is that the Americans want bypass
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the Sudanese people by insisting there should be no elections so that in the two-year transition
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they removed Islam from the Constitution and they normalized ties with Israelis Ahmed Shar adding an extra public holiday I'm not interested in the whole you know is it right is it wrong like
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that's irrelevant in this particular discussion ahed Shar is aware that he has to go above and
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beyond to reassure these parties because they have the power to remove him should they decide
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to do so and I think that it's not just melan I do believe he does want to bring these minorities
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together but I think that those who've criticized him for it perhaps don't necessarily appreciate the extent to which Western Powers act against any whff that Islam might be part of the government
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and I think it's significant that Bara Leaf the US Representative that to Damascus some of the
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foreign ministers they did press conference with Ahmed or they photographed themselves with him Barbara Leaf didn't do a press conference with Ahmed suggesting that when she came she set out
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her List of Demands that the Americans wanted and they went out and it remains to be seen whether
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these overcompensation as your question called it or I wouldn't call it overcompensation the
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overcompensation whether it will actually work or not becausei did it in Tunisia and when s toppled
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him it didn't help him in the end Mercy did it in Egypt and Bill Clinton did not give it any
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consideration whatsoever when she ran to recognize CC's cool I do think that the Americans are less
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interested in the rights of minorities and less interested in Christmas public holidays as much as
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they're interested in making sure that Islam never manifests itself politically and I think when we
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talk about overcompensation the question here is is adding two public holidays for Christmas which
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is something something that the UK does not do forid which is something that America does not do forid where the Christian population is about the same in terms of numbers in percentage I think the
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UK has a larger Muslim population UK government doesn't and I'm not saying UK government should do it I'm saying UK government doesn't need see a necessity to do so in order to elay the fears of
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a Muslim minority in the UK it doesn't see a need to do so nor do many Muslims even demand it these
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days you just go to the school you say it's they give you exemption and you're allowed to stay home and to go and celebrate it which is fine Muslims they don't complain about this but if the UK
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doesn't see a need to do this to ease the minority why does Ahmed in a majority Muslim country see
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the need to make it a state holiday as opposed to a discretionary holiday in the way that it is in
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the UK and the US and I think that reflects the fear that he has more than a suggestion perhaps that this is something that he felt that he needed to do so let's get this uh clear the fear isn't
Implement Sharia?
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really about minorities in in and of themselves the fear is about how the West is going to look
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upon this new fledgling government and if the West moves against the government uh by uh
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utilizing uh the treatment of these minorities that may undermine uh the Syrian uh government
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and the Syrian State okay um I suppose some of my viewers would say well why care about
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that like why concern yourself with what the West think surely you've now got government you know
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you know we uh we don't care about what these people they want to take us away at the end of the day and we've you've demonstrated that through
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those examples why don't we just say to hell with it let's Implement our Sharia
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and let's see what the worst the West can do well let me push back on the question
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slightly I do not think that there is necessarily a consensus that what has been done contradict
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Shar no when the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam enters Medina he establishes
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the Covenant of Medina with who he establishes it with the minority communities in Medina he
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established it with the Jews and the Christians and in that Covenant is an obligation on the state
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to protect the minorities against anybody who seeks to oppress them and an obligation on the
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state to allow these minorities to live their lives in the way that they have ordained their
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lives to be lived according to their own book so it's a proactive obligation that the prophet
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Muhammad has imposed on the Muslims towards the minorities now I know that I've answered the
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question from the angle of fear but there is also an angle that I do believe the Syrian government
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is pursuing which is that aside from the risk of the western states islamically if a Christian
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wants to go and celebrate Christmas there is no precedent in Islam where the Muslim says
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you're not allowed to if the Jew wants to go and celebrate you know rash hashana and these others
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there's no precedent in Islam where the state prevents them from celebrating it particularly
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in their own quarters or the like in Andalusia it was renowned that they would celebrate in their own quarters which is why in Andalucia you had the Christian quarter and the Jewish quarter it didn't
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mean that only Christians live there it meant that Christian celebrations would take place there that
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Jewish celebrations would take place there not because the state sanctioned it but it's just the place where the Christians used to gather implying that the state felt itself obliged in
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order to provide these Havens for these minorities to do so and that's why I think the debate as to whether it's Islamic or not what I suggest about the UK doesn't do it I'm not saying that he's done
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something contrary to Islam I'm saying that Ahmed has gone further than any Western State
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in providing minority rights he's gone further than any Western value in terms of providing that
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and that's why I gave the example ofid versus Christmas I've seen some debate amongst Muslim quarters saying oh look this undermines the Islamic nature of the state but I I don't think
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necessarily that it does no I'm not arguing that I mean I I can see how from an Islamic perspective if anything this isn't a problem but more my question I suppose was more um why care
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about what the West thinks in the first place so let's put it this wayed leads the force the Syrian
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government leads a force that's composed of 26 27 different factions these 26 27 different factions
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were unable to unite as one faction against Bashar Al Assad they remained 26 27 factions and even in
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their agreement to come together they came on on an agreement to operate under an umbrella but not
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as one force one of the things that Ahmed has been able to do is he's been able to convince most of them to disband and join the Army in order to which is a significant development yeah but the
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reason why I mention it this way is let's flip this let's flip sides and let's suppose that
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we are now American policy makers sitting with Jake Sullivan and Brett mcer and these people
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and we are concerned that Syria is actually free and we don't want the syrians to have their free
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Syria what's the first thing we do we don't send in the US Army we send delegates to go
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and meet some of these leaders of the factions we send delegates to go and meet the Kurdish militia
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we send delegates to go and meet Iran and to go to meet Iranian militias and we say to them
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that Ahmed might be able him and his government to unite the syrians enough under a consensus amongst
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one government this will give him an independence that might threaten the Israelis an independence that might make Syria into an independent force that might cause US problems similar to how it
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used to cause US problems in the 50s and 60s under when ABD nasar was in Egypt and you had
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these other figures around the Arab world King fisel and these these others emerging we don't want that to happen but our population in America does not allow us to send troops and Donald Trump
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is coming to power chances are he won't allow American troops to come here so who do we go to we will go to Kurdish separatists we will go to one faction and say why did Ahmed Shar give
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the governorship of aleo to this person and not to you we are we want you to have more representation
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in the government we want to support you in this representation in the government we want to boost your civil societ Society over here we want to send you know the organizations to
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send them to us University so they can go back and we can show them how it should be done we want to you to go to the streets and demand more secular rights we want banners for a secular State
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we want popular upheaval we want think tanks to talk about how ahmed's governance is going
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to cause problems with regards to minority rights and it might lead and then we want of course social media campaigns to give examples of how minorities have been oppressed in the past
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and therefore all of a sudden you have a poor M Syrian who is amongst one of those minorities who
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has no objective reason to fear but now suddenly fears because of the movie that has been painted
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and now when the protest Rises up and when somebody files one bullet and the security
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forces respond and fire a bullet and then the media cover that that exchange and suddenly it
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becomes violent force that is being used so you have another protest not for the minority but a
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protest against the security forces using Force against protest and this is against rights or the
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like the security Force doesn't know what to do neither does the government and it Cascades until you have another crisis instead what Ahmed is worried about he's worried about this cascading of
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events because this is what happened in Tunisia where you had the growth of so-called Civil Society where money was pumped in from outside where we had new think tanks new NOS we had new
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Charities we had new thinking emerging that was heavily back that didn't reflect the sentiments
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of the population which consistently voted for the government the same thing that we saw in Egypt we
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saw this funding of Civil Society Ahmed Shar is concerned that in this very nent period in this
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very early period in this period where everybody is asking questions because they don't know the
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certainty is not there the assurances are not there I think that the aim at this moment in
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time is how can I ensure that a West that doesn't have the appetite to get involved directly how can
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I ensure that the West can stay off my back while I focus on what's happening in Syria itself and
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the final point that is worth mentioning here is one shouldn't underestimate that the power of the
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West in its ability to topple governments in the region lies not in its military force it lies in
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its ability to prey on anxieties within Muslim societies it lies on its ability to to find the
19:29
collaborator it lies on its ability to present an argument that can convince a seemingly innocent
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individual and say you know yes I know your Sunni Syrian friend is your friend today but did you
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know they're the majority if they all turned on you one day you Shia you'd be in serious trouble oh my goodness and then Iran comes and says we can help to prevent that situation from happening
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here's a gun here's some money come to K go back to Syria form a militia here's some flags that
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you can wave oh my God they're coming after you you have to go and attack them often evil people
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don't start evil it's often a trend in which people eventually go on a path that leads them to
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it and that's what I think Ahmed Shar is concerned about more than anything else because and I think and I give you a much better example and I promise this is the final example I give when we look at
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the fact of the Shia militias that slaughtered in Iraq and Syria when you talk to Shia population
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they tell you about Samy look what Saddam did to us look what these people did to us before look at you're like okay but sunnis condemn that wrong that doesn't justify the wrong that these militias
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do instead there has to be a third way ahed and indeed the Syrian government at this moment
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in time want to cut off the road that will allow Western powers to pray on legitimate unfounded but
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legitimate understandable fears wants to cut off the road of them playing on those fears and wants
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to say to the Syrian Society I'm not here to kill anyone I'm not here to oppress anyone I'm not here
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to eradicate Christians I'm not here to eradicate the Jews when the Muslims when the Islamic empire
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spread Christians were not eradicated the reason their populations declin was because many became
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Muslim it wasn't that they were eradicated or killed Muslims are not Crusaders who go into cities and Massacre Muslims are not Christopher Columbus who goes in and kills the native IND
21:18
Native Indians Muslims are not the Catholic Isabella who goes into Andalusia and kicks out the Jews and the Muslims the Muslim Heritage and example has always been throughout history that
21:28
Allah will punish a Muslim who does not uphold those rights and I think that's also part of the
21:33
reason it's not not just fear of the west but also because the model that Muslims are taught
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is one in which there is a pluralism with Islam at the top a pluralism that allows these societies to
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practice their religious holidays and practice their religious rights under the framework of Islam so can I then ask you about the Sharia and the framework of the Sharia because interestingly
Jeremy Bowen Interview
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that question that was asked by the BBC journalist Jeremy boen uh the one of the first questions he
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asked was about alcohol and whether alcohol will be allowed to be consumed and sold uh in Syria
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and um Ahmed aar's answer was was to fudge it in a way wasn't it to his argument was we've got a
22:14
constitutional committee which will be independent and they're going to decide on some of these big matters it's not my arbitrary decision to make uh but of course we know that in a Sharia um
22:24
Christians and Jews and are allowed to drink alcohol in their quarters and they're allowed to brew alcohol and there isn't you know it's not as if uh even in in you know Islamic Society
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alcohol was completely banned it's just banned for Muslims right um I suppose uh some people
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have extrapolated from that answer and I think it's a mean way of extrapolating but some people have exaggerated and said that here we go he's already compromised on on Sharia so just to take
22:51
that point but but then to broaden it to Sharia generally like would your advice be based on
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you've said so far with namiri in in Sudan and and and the way in which the West would never tolerate
23:04
Sharia would your advice be you know be strong on Sharia the reason why I think that question
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is slightly irrelevant and I know it wasn't your question it's question other people is because Jeremy Bowen did not ask those questions out of a genuine fear for the right of alcohol or the
23:19
genuine fear for the rights of women yeah Bashar Assad Massac tens of thousands of Syrian women
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yeah Jeremy Bowen didn't ask about them first Israel is slaughtering thousands of Muslim and
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Christian women in Palestine no one is interested in those women's rights in Iraq the Iraqi AR the
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US Army went in and they slaughtered and raped Iraqi women no one asked about women's rights
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then no one cared about those women rights at that particular time either when B Ali banned a hijab
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in Tunisia no one asked about the women's rights to wear hijab instead many called it liberation
23:58
of the women in the line when the French would line up Algerian women doing during colonization when they ripped off the hijab they violated the free right of the woman to wear the
24:07
hijab by removing the hijab and saying now you are liberated no one cared about woman's rights over
24:12
here Jeremy bow is more concerned that he won't be able to see the Flesh of a Syrian woman and go in order to satisfy whatever fetish that he's after that's the blunt of it when you go to the museum
24:21
in Washington I think the natural history museum in Washington we have one here in the UK I can't remember which one it's called we went once if you look at all of the drawings of women of the Middle
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East they are all drawn sexually provocative and they are all drawn as if they are objects that
24:37
the colonizer conquered that is their vision for the women the idea that the women might be covered
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is for them such an afront because they are used to seeing it just openly they don't like the fact
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that a woman can impose a right not to be seen on another man it is absolutely saced that a
24:55
man cannot objectify a woman that's Jeremy bone is not interested in that no the point of the alcohol
25:00
as well I don't think Jeremy boen is necessarily worried about the Syrian right to impose to whe to
25:06
drink alcohol or not because the reality is that the Christians in Jerusalem they drink alcohol but
25:11
that did not prevent them from being slaughtered by the israelies neither did it prevent the Christian Iraqis from being killed neither did it prevent secular Kurds and secular syrians from
25:20
being killed by Bashar alassad either as all and that's why I think these questions they hide over
25:26
a hypocrisy that has become so overwhelmingly obvious after Gaza they are not interested in
25:31
human rights or democracy and the proof is that Syria is more than 85% majority Muslim majority
25:38
Sunni Muslim if you want to go down that road as well I think that when Bashar alassad from a minority group oppressed the majority and by claiming to protect the minorities people who
25:49
are arguing including the Americans and the regional powers that ID should stay because
25:55
having a minority secular is better than letting them majority rule what Jeremy Bowen was actually
26:01
asking was we in the UK have majority rule but God forbid you have it in Syria we in the US
26:08
have majority rule Trump wins he becomes president but we don't want you to have that because Trump
26:14
allows alcohol and allows pornography you might not allow it here in Syria too and that's why I argue that when the Muslims are posing the question is Ahmed compromising or not look
26:23
at his answer he said I want to leave this issue to a constitutional committee what does it mean
26:29
it means that he wants because Islam does not ban alcohol outright in a state it bans it for
26:35
Muslims and for non-muslims let the Constitutional committee decide where it can be served let the
26:40
Constitutional committee decide how it can be served let the Constitutional committee decide with a consensus with the Syrian people how and where alcoh should what Ahmed was saying was it's
26:50
not for you to come to me and tell me how Syria should be ruled I will have this discussion with
26:57
the syrians I will not have it with you what Ahmed was saying when he said in the interview that this
27:03
is something that is not a prime question right now he meant Jeremy Bowen you're more interested
27:08
in alcohol and the Flesh of Syrian women I'm more interested in these prisoners I've just released from Sid I'm more interested in the families who are coming home asking where are my
27:18
relatives I'm interested in those whose homes are occupied by pro-iran militias and by the foreign
27:24
Fighters that Iran brought in I want those homes to be returned to their rightful owners I'm more
27:30
interested in trying to assure the Kurds who think we're going to take revenge because of what SDF did I'm more interested in telling the Kurds they belong to Syria too I'm more
27:39
interested in going to the Christian priests and telling them that that Candace Owens video where she's worried about the Christians don't listen to her we're not going to do anything to you
27:47
Jeremy Bowen I'm worried about the Integrity of life itself while you're worried about partying
27:53
raving and worried about whether you'll be able to sit down with Syrian women or not ahed this was
27:58
what his answer was and that's why those who took the answer out of context I think honestly in my opinion people hear what they want to hear I think that his answer was categorically clear
28:08
and I would caution from making a big deal out of what Jeremy Bowen wants to be a big deal Syria has
28:15
come out of a brutal War Syria has come out of dictatorship Syria has come out of a state where
28:21
the walls had ears and the prisons had three layers on the ground Syria has come out from a brutal Civil War that saw millions of people kicked out of Syria that saw millions of syrians
28:32
left at the mercy of the western states alcohol is the least of the priorities for for anyone who's
28:38
in Syria at this moment in time and so is the the bikini beaches or these others or the like
28:43
ahed right now needs to restore the rights of the properties to the rightful owners it's not for me to give advice this looks like what the government is doing restore the rights to its legitimate
28:51
owners restore the social harmony of the state and then bring the people together and discuss what
28:57
should be the social contract moving forward and I think what what is no I wouldn't say concerning
29:05
what is worth noting now is many syrians are not questioning the legitimacy of Ahmed or this new
29:11
government they are not the only ones questioning it are the ones concerned about Syrian consensus
29:19
the only ones questioning the legitimacy are the ones worried about Syrian consensus and I think that's why it's better in this and this is why when he said would you advise him
29:28
don't advise them anything let the syrians handle their Affairs let the syrians handle how it should
29:33
be done because I don't think there's been any point in recent history where the syrians were
29:38
allowed to decide what they want instead France divided up their country and made Lebanon into
29:44
a separate State and did their borders and ruled there and then handed over power to a minority to make sure it wouldn't be a Muslim majority State we saw the Americans come in and bomb The Living
29:53
Daylights out of Syria we saw Obama come in when he saw the revolution he said listen listen if I
29:58
have to choose between a free Syria that might go towards Islam and Bashar Al Assad a secular Tyrant
30:05
I'd rather have Bashar Al Assad and it's very interesting now that the ones who are bringing up
30:11
the issue of the role of Islam in the Constitution are not syrians it's pro-iran groups that were
30:19
happy to accept Bashar al-assad but are now questioning the role of Islam in the Constitution saying no we don't want these guys as Islam to do so in the Iranian Constitution it says that
30:29
the president not only must he be Muslim he must be from the from the from ja and they have to be
30:38
fully convinced of it in order to have a right to run for president Iran allows that rule for itself but it's lobbying against Syria having something similar I'm not saying Syria should have it I'm
30:47
saying look at the double standards you have the uee Ambassador coming out and saying in 2017 that
30:52
uee's ideal vision for Syria is a weak president something that bin Zed would never accept for him
30:58
himself reducing the powers of the president that Ben Zade in the UAE would never give up even an inch of power to anybody else instead he's Consolidated it the UA Ambassador said we want an
31:08
over representation of minorities in Parliament something bin Zade would never accept in the UAE would never accept a parliament in the UAE let alone a representation of minorities in the UAE in
31:18
order he says to establish a secular democracy SEC being the operative word his words not mine and in
31:25
order to create his words not mine the same same way that you did in Lebanon a paralyzed State we
31:30
want Syria to be a paralyzed State those who are talking about these issues alcohol these I'm not
31:37
saying they're not important I'm saying that when a mother is asking you where is my son he's been
31:43
gone 13 years you don't sit with that mother and tell her but Ma I want but you know but
31:49
Auntie alcohol but Auntie bikinis you don't say that you know when they bring the pictures Iran
31:57
pre-islamic Revolution they saw the girls in in in short skirts and the like which shows you the vision that that they want for it you don't go to a father who hasn't seen his son in 30 years
32:07
they disappeared under the Assad regime and he says have you seen my son have you seen my son
32:13
did he come out in the prison come in prison and he say but ha did you not hear what he said about alcohol that's why I think that we should be wary of being dragged into these debates that don't get
32:24
us anywhere Syria needs a Reconciliation amongst its societ and I'm not too worried about the state
32:30
of Islam at this moment in time in Syria not because I think it will will or will not be
32:35
includeing the Constitution I'm sure that it will I'm sure syrians will go through it if they don't they may end up with the same fate as Egypt and Tunisia but certainly I believe that when we talk
32:44
about what the western states want from Syria I think that it would be interesting to see to what extent the syrians are able to dictate their own faith independently of what's Happening elsewhere
Role of Türkiye
32:54
can I ask you about the role of turkey now the last time we spoke substan eventally about Syria
33:00
um there was a discussion about whether Tura played a part in the initial Revolution uh that
33:06
led to the downfall of Assad and and and Damascus and I think your answer was that turkey did not
33:13
have sufficient um information at that time uh to support the uh so turkey was not behind the
33:20
initial Revolt but turkey did have some part to play in the buildup uh but turkey didn't know
33:25
the time in now since then we've had uh pretty high level meetings between Turkish officials
33:32
and the new fledgling government we've had fedan uh the foreign minister we've had Ibrahim Cullen
33:38
the uh intelligence Chief who who visited and he was driven around by uh by by galani uh and
33:45
and we've had that Trump press conference where Trump basically said this was a Turkish coup uh are you still convinced that turkey was not the power behind this revolution I still think that
33:58
turkey did not believe in the initial stages that Damascus was going to fall I think it's
34:05
important to remember that in just about a month two months prior erdogan was insisting on Bashar
34:12
Al Assad coming to Ankara talking with Ankara lobbying Russia to get Assad to get Assad to
34:17
come to ankar erdogan believed that domestically the syrians were resulting in a very difficult
34:25
political situation for him at home 2019 he loses the moror election in Istanbul because
34:30
of the syrians because there's growing animosity amongst the Turkish population towards the Syrian
34:36
refugees when are they going home when are they going home when are they going home yeah in the presidential election afterwards Syria becomes one of the major issues and kich daru makes it
34:44
one of his main points I will kick those syrians home the opposition leader the opposition leader and erdogan is sort of holding the stick from the miden and then right at the end he goes no
34:54
it's it's inhumane to kick them out even though there are reports that he was taking some syrians and deporting them back to Syria itself and also that some res reapplying of residence permits or
35:05
renewals were being delayed and the light I think that erdogan's plan was that given Damascus is
35:11
not going to fall let me try and talk to Bashan Assad come to an agreement with him and then get
35:18
those Syrian refugees to go back to Assyria where Assad is still in Damascus but we've managed to create a safe haven for them in the north and that way the Turks who are angry with me they'll come
35:27
down and therefore I will be able to ease the political pressure on myself I think as part of applying pressure on Bashar Assad I think the taxs were aware that Ahmed Shar and his
35:39
allies his Coalition groups wanted to launch an offensive and it wouldn't be the first time they launched an offensive they launched an offensive previously once upon a time they got to sarak with
35:49
the help of Turkish drones and then turkey felt that maybe they can't go much further Turkish drones withdrew hisbah came over and the groups were driven back from satatam turkey's history
36:00
is that I want to put enough pressure on bashet but I don't believe in the capacity to bring down
36:06
Damascus itself the reports initially suggested that erdogan had tried to ask the groups to delay
36:12
their offensive until October I still want to talk to Bashar Assad I still want to come to an agreement with Bashar Assad remember UAE were already rehabilitating Bashar Assad B
36:21
Salman had hosted Bashar at the Arab Summit you have other Regional leaders who are meeting Bash
36:27
Iranian foreign minister was with Bashar Assad 19 days beforehand I think that when Ahmed
36:34
Asar and his group decided to launch the attack unilaterally because three weeks prior assid was
36:42
bombing idlib Russia was bombing idlib and there was an indication that essid might make another attempt on idlib I think the groups thought let's go we have nothing to lose we're ready
36:53
let's do a preemptive strike that will surprise everybody I think that sometimes we forget that these groups also have agency they're able to move on their own and I think they moved on their
37:01
own initially when they got to ELO I think in the beginning can they take ELO can they not take ELO
37:07
where's Russia I think at this point erdogan in my opinion goes to talks to the Russians and
37:13
tells them it's not in your interest to intervene in here Russia's already tied down in Ukraine it
37:19
hasn't paid much attention to Syria they're asking the Turks what's going on over here and the Turks are probably telling the Russians this is just a limited operation Putin goes okay let me go back
37:28
and focus on Ukraine where I have a real problem and I'm struggling over here in Ukraine then they take ELO when they take ELO I think then the T are saying okay you took aleo quite fast but
37:40
Ahmed is already moving to or moving to H when he's moving towards Hammer I think at this point
37:46
the taxs are saying okay he took AO this increases our leverage at the negotiating table there's no
37:54
harm in letting him go into Hammer because Putin right now doesn't believe it's something serious
37:59
Putin is still focused on Ukraine so the airplanes are not coming in to bomb them into Oblivion and I
38:05
can force esset to come to negotiating table when Hanah Falls and they start marching on H erdogan
38:10
comes out and says that Damascus is going to be I think as that's the point where the Turks start
38:16
saying actually Damascus might fall and I think it's at this point where erdogan believes that the Russians won't necessarily get involved I think the Turks were taken by surprise but adapted very
38:25
quickly your question when you pose it and say but the Turks seem to be the primary beneficiaries they are there first Kalan is in Damascus first fidan is in Damascus first erdogan is planning to
38:35
visit next week from this recording I think that the reason turkey has a Primacy is because even if
38:45
the ending was a bit bitter in terms of the rise of racism and xenophobia in turkey and the attacks
38:52
on Syrian refugees it is not an understatement to say that erdogan is perhaps one of the primary
39:06
reasons why the Syrian Revolution remained alive for so long erdogan took those refugees
39:14
in erdogan is the one who despite Turks being very angry with him about it erdogan integrated
39:23
those Syrian refugees in giving them access to the education system the Healthcare System the housing and the like he gave them a Haven in Turkey in fact the new foreign minister of the new
39:31
government is was doing his PhD in IST University erdogan I think did this for two reasons erdogan
39:41
could have done like the UAE and gone and quickly made ties with Bashar Assad could have done like
39:47
Saudi Arabia could have done like a lot of more of the other neighboring countries he didn't I think
39:53
one of the reasons that he didn't was erdogan had some sort of belief in the legitimacy of the
40:00
Syrian Revolution and therefore at some political cost to his own position continueed to support
40:07
that Syrian Revolution whenever Assad looked like he would take idlib turkey would intervene turkey
40:13
mediated between the groups when the Western Powers wouldn't recognize jolani because of him
40:19
being with Al beforehand and then turning away from alq it was ER who intervened and said that
40:25
rather than abandoning them and going to Bashar Assad let me set up a Syrian National Army instead
40:31
that can be marketed abroad I'm not going to lose faith in this revolution yet now of course he had his interest of course in the sense that he wanted to get rid of the pkk threat in Northern
40:39
Syria and therefore he had invested interest in Northern Syria but even if those intentions mean
40:45
that there's a mixed bag of pragmatism of Muslim Affinity of a sympathy for the Syrian people plus
40:52
a hatred of Kurdish separatism I think all of that coming together means that Ahmed was able to last
41:00
as long as he did and Ahmed Asar is aware of that which is why the first delegation he receives is
41:06
erdogan and it's also why erdogan when he now sees these groups finally in Damascus erdogan
41:13
is the one who gets the Syrian National Army to start handing territory back to Damascus erdogan
41:19
sends his foreign minister to immediately give International legitimacy to this new government
41:24
that the UAE doesn't want to give UAE is very slow in order to Comm Abdallah bin Z I think only
41:29
contacted the only contacted the new government I think maybe about more than 20 days in more than
41:35
10 he didn't want to speak with the new government Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman again same thing very hasn't de with the new government T fidan go straighten and the moment those
41:45
high-profile pictures of haken fidan there of international foreign minister meeting with a new
41:50
government in Syria the EU sends his delegation and then goes to Anar to say to erdogan we want
41:55
to be part of Syria how can we talk to this new government he tells them go to Damascus they go to Damascus then erdogan talks to the US on their behalf and the US sent barara Leaf to Damascus to
42:04
talk as well too I think that turkey didn't know Damascus would fall but I think given that they
42:11
were the primary support for the syrians for so long consistently even if they maybe it was a bit
42:16
shaky from time to time but I think given that erdogan not Turks erdogan given that erdogan's
42:22
support was so strong for so long it makes sense he's the primary beneficiary foreign minister went
42:28
there as well is now offering finances too H fidan went to UAE as well to try to get Ben to tell him
42:34
Ben listen B please B look look look look B listen I Know What You Did in Tunis I Know What You Did
42:41
in Egypt I know what you've done in Libya I know we've done in Sudan you have nothing to fear from this new government just calm down don't lash out don't do what you did I don't think bin is
42:51
necessarily convinced by the Turkish foreign ministers arguments or the like but certainly I think erdogan's Primacy in supporting Syrian Revolution has translated in a Primacy of access
43:03
to Syria a Primacy in Ally in the long queue of potential allies for Syria a Primacy in economic
43:12
contracts a Primacy in reconstruction and I think Ahmed is being advised by turkey even on his PR
43:19
and I think that ahmed's advantage that rushi did not have's Ally oran's neighboring country
43:27
Algeria were very suspicious of him in Egypt the neighboring countries were very suspicious I think
43:33
ahmed's advantage that he has thatan did not have after the Arab Spring is he has a very powerful
43:39
Ally across his border that genuinely believes that he needs to succeed and that their interests
Türkiye NATO member
43:45
are perfectly aligned um I've come across a number of arguments let's place it under the conspiracy
43:51
uh bucket for now but a number of arguments that suggest that uh what has been what has developed
43:57
here is very much uh in line with American foreign policy so I'm going to take each and every single
44:02
one of these arguments one by one I mean the first uh thing I've heard is that if Turkey is the
44:08
brains behind this you've suggested that it's not quite the brains behind it but it has the greatest
44:13
leverage at the moment over the new government but if turkey has this leverage um and uh it's a bit
44:20
ridiculous to to say this but um turkey is a NATO member and so the argument goes that as a NATO
44:27
member turkey is very much under American control and so America is controlling this revolution via
44:35
turkey uh and the effective control it has over the new government how do you answer that I think
44:42
that many people ascribe an omnipotence to the US that belongs solely to Allah subhana wa tala
44:49
alone yeah I think that they apply the attributes of Allah to America Allah is allseeing America is
44:59
allseeing Allah is the best the the the best of planners his plan is always successful America's
45:06
plan is always successful Allah is the one who gives rulership America is the one that
45:14
delivers people to power and Allah is the one who takes rulership they say America is the one who
45:19
takes Allah you give power to whom you will will and take it from whom you will they have
45:29
substituted Allah for America and they have found a perfect fear it is impossible in their
45:35
minds that erdogan might have some agency to act outside of American influence and perhaps even
45:43
frustrate the Americans to such an extent that the Americans might actually have wanted erdogan to be
45:50
toppled in the attempted coup in 2016 that the Americans might have actually wanted kich daru
45:55
to beat erdogan in the elections and they didn't want erdogan to win that Biden when he came to
46:00
power or during the elections when he came in he made that famous statement we need to work with
46:05
the opposition to remove erdogan and then when the journalists went he's talking about a NATO
46:11
Ally he went peacefully peace democratically democratically that when you've got all these
46:17
Americans threatening erdogan because of his unilateral actions when he goes and buys s400s
46:23
from the Russians and when he goes and against us interest in the Mediterranean in Libya when
46:28
they're not happy at him intervening when John Bolton gave the green light to haftar to go and take Tripoli erdogan goes in to stop ha taking tripol I think that it's a very simplistic black
46:38
and white approach I don't think erdogan is a tool for the Americans I think he's a frustration for
46:44
the Americans I think where the reason the argument has gained traction is because of
46:50
erdogan's conduct on Gaz whereby 40% or so according to reports the of oil Israel's oil
46:58
comes from aaban through the Jan pipeline through turkey erdogan could turn it off but he decid he
47:04
chooses not to because he's worried about the backlash that the Americans will give him and also the potential that the Turks will topple him as a result of the backlash by that what I mean is
47:12
American sanctions leads to a worsening economy the Turks won't blame the Americans for the worsening economy of the sanctions they will blame erdogan for being in their word stupid enough to
47:24
switch off the oil and he's an idiot shouldn't have done it even if it's for the sake of festine
47:29
because now we're hungry we can't go and eat in TX him Square we're going to topple erdogan and we're going to go and give the to Kish erdogan says this isn't worth I'm not making excuse I'm saying
47:39
his calculation the reason the argument gains traction is because erdogan perhaps has insisted
47:46
on maintaining good ties with the Israelis even as the Gaza genocide takes place that erdogan
47:52
has not deployed the power at his disposal he continued trading with the Israelis when it
47:57
got leaked he continued trading secretly with the Israelis when that got leaked he announced the ban
48:02
but not a complete ban and there were all these loopholes and the like and whatnot I understand that but I think that his approach to Israel is different from his approach to Syria his approach
48:12
for Israel he sees certain Doom I take any serious step against the Israelis I am done for it won't
48:18
be an invasion American troops they will get the tax to turn upon me that's why I always have the argument the reason erdogan feels limited on Gaz is not necessarily because of the Americans but
48:28
because he doesn't believe the Turks population the Turkish population will have his back when the going gets tough because he stood up for festine it's one of those Central issues of the the social
48:37
consensus but in any case I think that the idea that erdogan is somehow a tool of NATO with the
48:43
LI I think that when you look at what's happening in Syria when you look at the fact that Israel
48:49
went and bombed all the military installations immediately suggesting that Israel was comfortable
48:56
with the stay to the Syrian Army under Bashar Assad they had no fear of the Syrian Army when
49:01
Bashar Assad was in power but they do have a fear when turkey's allies are in Damascus and they
49:06
might be in charge of the military force therefore we need to destroy the military capabilities because Aid we knew would never use them turkey and their allies they might use them and that's
49:15
why I think it's very poignant after Damascus fell stood up in Parliament and started recite the starting bringing all this religious rhetoric B his nationalist the Ally in government coming
49:28
out to saying Jerusalem is coming soon we are putting this throughoute the announcement of the hij railway from Istanbul to Damascus I think that erogan is a master of operating within limited
49:42
Frameworks he is a member of NATO but he uses that to his Advantage when America American public no
49:50
longer has an appetite for war and therefore it's demanding its government to bring the troops home
49:57
erdogan comes out and says I'm a NATO Ally let me put turkey's troops there and I think if you were
50:03
to compare between US troops and Turkish troops which would the syrians prefer if if they had to choose I know syrians would prefer to have Syrian troops which would they prefer are you telling
50:12
me that the Turkish troop and the US troop are equivalent I admit UAE troop and American troop are the same I agree but would you say that the Turkish troop and the U and the US troop are the
50:22
same it you would be very hard pressed to push this particular point and that's why I think that with this government in Damascus Israel is concerned which is why it's talking about
50:31
helping the Kurdish separatists us is concerned which is why I think Barbara Leaf didn't do a press conference with Ahmed Shar because she's not happy with how things are developing and the
50:39
US is waiting to see we'll lift the Bounty but we won't lift the sanctions and I think erdogan is the one running around trying to say look I'm not doing anything against the Israelis I'm a
50:49
NATO Ally I'm your friend let Damascus go let these guys rule in D Damascus and I think that
50:58
the Israelis are saying as we saw two days ago they are saying that Ahmed is putting on a show
51:05
a display of a moderate face but in his heart he Harbors a desire to destroy us and they're
51:11
probably right I think the Israelis are trying to tell the Americans and the Americans are aware of it too but I think the Americans are saying he's still a NATO Ally erdogan can't do much it's not
51:24
like he's going to march on Tel Aviv tomorrow we don't have the capacity to stay in Syria better
51:30
erdogan than Iran syrians will never accept an Israeli presence in Syria the best of the bad
51:38
options we have is let erdogan do so and I think that's where the NATO Ally comes to his Advantage
51:43
having said that yeah I do think that many people pay a price for erdogan's games in this regard and
51:52
that's why you always say erdogan is Muslim in good times and Turk in bad times he's a Turkish nationalist in bad times and he's a very Muslim ruler in good times but I think
52:01
that overall I think that this particular argument doesn't hold when you look at the nature of the relationship between erdogan and the US and the final example I'll give is if erdogan wasn't
52:12
Muslim would the ties between turkey and the US be so strained if it was K daru A secular would
52:21
he have as much of a headache in his relationship with the Americans as erdogan I don't think he would which suggest that the issue has something to do with erdogan himself I think many people are
52:30
idealistic or believe in this Utopia that erdogan somehow will put on Muhammad and go and bang the
52:37
drums and enter Jerusalem itself but I think what Syria demonstrates is if Eran has disappointed
52:44
greatly on one issue on Gaza that doesn't mean that he let go of other issues where he felt he
52:50
could do something suggesting that when erdogan feels he can do something he delivers Syria and
52:56
when he feels he can't do something that is when he disappoints such as Syria such as Gaza but I
53:02
think that what Syria shows is erdogan in his own mind believes in Muslim agency Independence
53:09
and Liberation whereas I think when you look at the way the UAE operates in terms of normalizing
53:15
Bashar Assad normalizing with the Israelis lobbying with the Israelis against Muslim the idea
53:22
of Muslim governance lobbying with the Israelis for secular regime to suppress Muslim majority
53:29
who want Muslim rule I think those are two very different approaches U is in a good time and
53:34
look what it does and that's why I think that the comparison between the two suggests that erdogan is not in the same bracket as some of these other leaders do you think that the Trump presidency a
Trump Presidency
53:44
new Trump presidency will be better for erdogan I mean he had a lot more autonomy during the first
53:52
Trump presidency in fact there was that whole debacle over the Northeast Syria over uh uh the
53:59
Kurdish uh rojava state which um in a sense Trump um accepted erdogan's argument and reduced troop
54:07
numbers quite radically to 500 I think it was and general Kelly had to resign so um is erdogan in
54:13
a way looking forward to the second Trump term there is a very good article in uh in El monitor
54:21
I think it's an interview with James Jeffrey I've mentioned it before but there's no how I mention it again he was the us Envoy to Syria and he was asked about the difference between the Obama
54:30
Administration and the Trump Administration he said under the Obama Administration Syria policy
54:35
was generally delegated to the Army generals to sencom yeah under Trump however he said when Trump
54:42
came to power Trump would ask us nearly every day what are we doing in Syria why are we there ugan
54:48
is on the phone with me and he's telling me that Turkish troops can handle it why is erdogan our Ally why are we supporting The pkk Who doesn't like why are we supporting somebody that a NATO
54:59
Ally doesn't like moreover he argued that Trump was always pushing for the withdrawal of US troops
55:05
and saying we shouldn't be there you'll remember the negotiation with Afghanistan Trump literally walked in appended years of established US policy of Afghan of colonizing Afghanistan and basically
55:15
said my people want the troops to go home I'm bringing my troops home he brought them to Doha and bicy told Ashani sorry normal support for you and let the Taliban just walk into kab James
55:26
Jeffrey gave the indication that Trump is not an establishment figure the way that Biden Obama
55:33
and these others Trump instead of following the line the way Obama and Biden did Trump has this
55:41
unknown Wild Card about him and I think what the UAE did quicker than the other countries did in
55:47
this first Administration was they were very quick to realize that if you want to influence us policy
55:52
under Trump you don't go through the traditional channels you go through Jared kushna or you go to Trump directly I think erdogan realized this belatedly which is why towards the end of the
56:02
Trump era Trump started withdrawing troops much to erdogan's favor and also would allow erdogan to start going and John Kelly in in a Fury ended up resigning when he said why are we ruining US
56:12
policy in this regard I think with the return of trump I think the fall of Damascus would have been
56:17
impossible without the prospect of trump coming to power right I think that Trump's hands off
56:24
approach and Trump's less ideological approach I think Trump's idea of why we getting involved uh
56:31
you remember that famous clip where he said the why are we going to their countries telling them they can't wear the veil like they want to wear it they want to wear it he said like who are we
56:39
to go and tell them don't wear it Trump's policy of if if I don't have an interest in it why am I getting involved in it I think erdogan stands to benefit significantly from this I think when
56:50
Trump is now I I saw one of his uh cabinet members his nomination for defense secretary uh I forgot
56:58
his name but in any case he came out and he said that we are involved in too many wars our troops
57:05
shouldn't be involved in all of these different issues we don't need American boots running around there that reflects Trump's policy and I think where erdogan stands to benefit is when Trump
57:16
decides if he decides to withdraw those troops he needs a replacement for those troops in order to
57:22
to appease senom and these others he has to rely on the NATO Ally that everybody criticizes erdogan
57:29
for which means erdogan might actually have his way in preventing a Marxist leftist separatist
57:34
State the irony that the US would support a Marxist movement but in any case that erdogan will have his way he'll prevent that Northeastern autonomous oil Rich Marxist leftist Kurdish state
57:46
that the US were hoping to establish and Israel wants to establish Trump might say I'm not interested in it erdogan go in and erdogan will be that Peacekeeper over there I think erdogan
57:56
stands to benefit more from Trump than from Biden and I think already from now the qataris and the Turks whereas UAE had a head start before I think they're already with Trump talking to Trump
58:07
engaging with Trump saying to Trump this is where your interests lie this is where us interests lie Biden burnt the whole region with his ideological approach the Democrats burnt the whole region John
58:17
Kirby burnt the whole region Jake Sullivan burnt the whole region Brett mcer burnt the whole region and I think the difference between Biden and Trump if the reports are accurate times of Vis reported
58:26
that Trump told Netanyahu he has until 20th of January to finish this whatever he's doing in
58:32
Gaza 20th of January is when Trump enters the White House so Trump essentially was saying this stuff can't happen under my rule I want the world to say Trump fixed what Biden broke I didn't
58:42
believe Times of Israel initially when they wrote it but I saw Muhammad ABD Alani the prime minister of qar gave an interview to Reuters in which he said it as fact that Trump has called netanel
58:51
and told him he has until the 20th of January I think the Times of Israel has also reported
58:57
that Trump has informed privately the Israeli officials the annexation of the West Bank is off the table something that people were saying that he was going to do beforehand I'm not saying Trump
59:06
will actually do these things I'm saying Biden 100% was going to do it Trump maybe he will do it
59:12
and I think that maybe is sufficient for erdogan to get a lot with regards to his way particularly
59:18
given and this is the point I finish on Trump is not interested in the Middle East Trump's
59:24
interested in China yeah Trump's main focus is always China yeah that's why he's talking about
59:31
tariffs that's why he's talking about competition with China Trump is not interested in the Middle East Biden claimed he was not interested in the Middle East and then his Zionism you know
59:39
his overwhelming Zionism that he drowned himself in took too much pres and he ended up losing the election for supporting Zionism I think with Trump he will believe that look what's the
59:48
big deal erdan NATO Ally we rely on his troops let him go into Syria uh what's this stuff why
59:54
does Israel need to keep bombing Palestine let let Saudi normalize Israelis and everybody keep the peace I'm not saying normalization is a good thing I'm saying from TR perspective it's just not
1:00:01
a priority and I think erdogan will have greater leverage to achieve what he wants under Trump than
1:00:07
he will under Biden having said that it was Trump who imposed sanctions on erdogan when erdogan
1:00:13
refused to release that Pastor brunon I think his name was it was Trump who brought heavy pressure
1:00:19
to bear on erdogan economically when erdogan threatened unilateral action in a number of issues
1:00:25
that upset Trump Trump just as much as he can benefit erdogan he can also hurt erdogan and it's
1:00:31
important to note that after Damascus has fallen I don't think those in Abu Dhabi are particularly
1:00:36
happy with what's happened in Damascus I don't think riy is particularly happy Ry very quickly released a number of prisoners Egypt now is in overdrive mode with regards to PR CC came out
1:00:46
and said I'm not like essid I don't have blood on my hands and I didn't steal anybody's money ibraim Isa one of the prominent Pro regime media Outlets has come out and said we need a greater
1:00:57
representation of the parties in Egypt and we need to start releasing some political prisoners ibraim
1:01:02
Isa doesn't say that unless there's a green light from above in order to say it CC brought a whole
1:01:08
meeting of all the military brass suggesting he's deeply concerned that what happened in Damascus
1:01:13
might happened in Egypt I don't think that those leaders are necessarily happy with what happened in Damascus and also erdogan's other challenges he might speak in one ear of Donald Trump he'll
1:01:24
have three four other Muslim leader speaking in the other ear of Donald Trump telling him erdogan tells you he doesn't want to hurt Israel but he actually does erdogan tells you that he
1:01:34
doesn't want these people to be you know uh uh Islamic or whatever but in reality that's
1:01:40
what he's doing look what he's done in Turkey I think erdogan's greatest challenge will not come from Trump erdogan's greatest challenge will come from these local Regional rulers um sorry to come
Taliban and West
1:01:49
back to the uh the theories around uh the new government but it just seems that unlike Gaza
1:01:55
unlike some some other uh Liberation struggles like Afghanistan uh there are lots and lots of
1:02:01
conspiracy theories around uh around Syria uh one of the arguments that some people raise is
1:02:08
why were how can it be that the West were so quick to recognize this new government they sent their
1:02:14
ambassadors they opened up the German Embassy the French Embassy the British Embassy the Americans
1:02:20
visited this past week the Brits came um you know there is a there's a Quee of westerners who are
1:02:28
ready to recognize government whereas the Taliban have barely been recognized by by the west and and
1:02:33
the West still uh puts all sorts of honorous conditions on them before uh some very basic
1:02:40
diplomatic moves can be made and sanctions could be can be um uh can be eased um so there seems
1:02:46
to be a difference in which the West is treating this new Syrian government to that of the uh other
1:02:51
governments address address that please I think first let's address the point that the the speed
1:02:57
with which Western governments recognized the new government in Damascus suggest they supported it
1:03:02
yeah when bin Al was toppled in the Arab Spring in Tunisia no one expected Ben Ali to fall my
1:03:08
father is from City bu where he burned himself no one expected the protest to swell from the Monday
1:03:17
so from 17 December when bazizi burnt himself and started the revolution to 14th of January no one
1:03:23
thought B Ali would fall including the protesters in Tunisia until bin Ali fell America couldn't
1:03:29
say bin Ali America weren't expecting bin Ali to fall they weren't expecting Mubarak to fall
1:03:37
America was still the first people to talk to the new government cuz America doesn't sit and rest on its Laurels America went straight in and said okay something happened but we don't want
1:03:44
to be out to the picture let's go straight in and let's go and set out and see what's happening here who are these people who Hillary Clinton speaks to Mory in the end she ends up supporting the
1:03:53
coup that topples him as well you're telling me Hillary Clinton brought Mory to power for one year and then brought the Army back again and even that even you know that's what I meant about
1:04:01
omnipotence to the Americans the second point that is worth noting is that I think that the speed
1:04:07
with which they recognize Damascus is because of the threat that Syria poses to every agenda
1:04:15
in the region Damascus fell fast and rapidly and the suggestion that the Americans supported it
1:04:24
would suggest that or in my opinion is inaccurate because everybody in the region Was preparing for
1:04:33
a normalization with Bashar Assad the US Congress were discussing lifting sanctions on Assad the
1:04:39
UAE was lobbying for the lifting of sanctions on Bashar Assad erdogan was inviting him to ankar to
1:04:44
reconcile with Bashar Assad bin Salman had hosted him in not one but two three meetings including
1:04:50
the organization of Islamic countries and the Arab League meetings with Bashar Al Assad all
1:04:55
the language and rhetoric on Syria was Bashar alassad is staying the argument
1:05:01
that the US toppled him would suggest that everybody thought he was staying everybody
1:05:06
in the region was reconciling him everybody was rehabilitating him and not a single one had a notion that America was going to topple him the third point is that Israel what threat came
1:05:19
from Bashar alassad that the Israelis would have wanted to topple him the weapons were going toward
1:05:27
via the shant that the Iranians established fine but the documents when they took over Damascus
1:05:33
showed that ID was giving Iranian positions to the Israelis so that Israelis would hit them because
1:05:39
he was increasingly frustrated with the Iranians because the Iranians were demanding more and more money from him in compensation for having rescued Bashar Assad from his own people the Israelis
1:05:50
never destroyed the military installations in the way they just destroyed them in the past two weeks when this new government took place because they didn't fear Bashar Assad Syria the reason they
1:06:00
didn't fear Bashar Assad Syria was because they believed that under essid Syria was paralyzed
1:06:06
under essid you had the people against the regime and that battle between people and regime meant Syria couldn't really do anything so the Israel Israel's ideal scenario was that let the Turks
1:06:16
stay in Northwest Syria let the kurs have an autonomous region in Northeast Syria let there
1:06:22
be a different autonomous region in the South that belongs to the Ala sh or the new demographic changes that the Iranians met when they kicked out the sunnis from the south and they brought
1:06:30
the Shia to occupy their homes in the South and leave Damascus as a paralyzed impotent government
1:06:38
that is unable to control the rest of Syria where assid is a puppet either of the Iranians or of the
1:06:43
Russians or perhaps can be convinced to join the imarati and the UAE who can keep him as a puppet
1:06:49
for themselves Israel's ideal situation was that ID stays in power Us's ideal situ ituation was
1:06:56
the protection of Israel which requires Essa to stay in power and therefore this speed with which he fell I don't think indicates that the westerners supported the movement or the rebels in
1:07:07
taking Damascus I think it shows that there was an overwhelming complacency in Syria where everybody
1:07:13
because they thought it was a given that ID had won no one was paying attention to Syria anymore
1:07:19
Russia was focused on Ukraine the US focused on on genocide in Gaza and focused on China
1:07:25
Arabia focused on his diminishing uh treasury funds as a result of its overspending on Vision
1:07:31
2030 UAE focused on reconciling Bashar Assad and committing genocide in Sudan and going to
1:07:37
help support haar to make sure that Libya cannot be reunited no one was looking at Syria because
1:07:43
they thought Syria is done ID in Damascus we're just waiting for turkey Russia and ID to and Iran
1:07:49
to split the gains between them the fifth point that is worth noting is that when people say that
1:07:56
the speed suggests that the westerners support them and the lining up of European countries in
1:08:02
Damascus suggest that somehow they they didn't do that with the Taliban the Taliban initially
1:08:08
when they did their press conference you'll remember that Z when he was giving his press
1:08:14
conferences what did many in the western media start saying this is a new language it's a new
1:08:19
rhetoric it's more moderate it's not like the Taliban of 1996 who walked into Kabul
1:08:25
and then hang the the the the president from in the Market Square and proceeded to execute a number of other leaders as well this is different they've walked in there's no Bloodshed they've
1:08:34
said stop shooting in the air the way Ahmed told these people stop shooting in the air some of them
1:08:39
you know they've they've come out they bought the Australian Afghan talking in the English language very eloquently they started people started saying hang on this might be a new Taliban and then what
1:08:48
did the Taliban do no education for girls it was a gift you were talking about the whole Christmas
1:08:55
and saying alcohol will leave it to constitutional committee Taliban came in and said girls shouldn't have any education they didn't say they shouldn't have any education until we see what the education
1:09:04
system looks like that second part about reforming education system came from those who wanted to
1:09:10
defend the Taliban position so the Taliban said no no education for girls Imran Khan comes out
1:09:16
and says these guys are going to embarrass us humiliate us publicly everyone's talking about it he gathers a team of Scholars and he wants to send them to go to Taliban to talk with them when
1:09:25
top wasan and and it becomes a whole different issue and they throw Iman in prison afterwards
1:09:31
but the Taliban instead of continuing in the same veins started their whole Banner girls education
1:09:42
and then everybody said wait they will deal with it we had some Taliban figures coming out and saying we'll discuss it some argued that what the Taliban wanted to do was we want to change the
1:09:52
education curriculum because Western education produc produces produces Shameless things many
1:09:59
Muslims said okay this maybe I can I can go along with this because at least the maternity education
1:10:05
is still taking place because when a woman wants to see a doctor what gender doctor does she want
1:10:10
to see a male or a female she want see a female then the Taliban came out recently and said even maternity education for women we're going to shut it down if you're a German foreign minister and
1:10:22
you're going to Kabul to go and meet the Taliban what is the the first thing the German press are going to ask you about are they going to ask you about you know what did you to that they're going
1:10:31
to say did you mention girls education the Taliban shock themselves in their own foot in that regard
1:10:37
in terms of international recognition and the proof that they put themselves into a corner is
1:10:42
such they ended up their primary Ally today is UAE which has normalized with the Israelis so
1:10:49
the Taliban who fought their primary Ally today are the Arab Zionist who now support the Israelis
1:10:57
themselves because of a Calamity that they brought onto themselves that they didn't need to bring onto themselves because even islamically no muslim can argue that the woman shouldn't be educated
1:11:07
because it's the woman who educate the kids at home predominantly anyway you don't want a j to teach your kids about what's happening at home I think what Ahmed is doing with his statements is
1:11:16
he created he opened a door through which these people could come to recognize him through which they could come to meet him and set up embassies having said that your question suggests that the
1:11:27
Syrian government has been recognized it hasn't the US lifted the bounty on Ahmed but they refused
1:11:33
to lift sanctions they said we will not lift sanctions until we see genuine progress beyond
1:11:39
the statements themselves and maybe the Taliban argument could be that we knew these guys would never give us their recognition anyway that it needed to be something particularly more different
1:11:47
or the like I think that the suggestion that the Syrian government is backed by the westerners
1:11:55
because of the pace of recognition I think is a blanket statement that is inaccurate and it's not
1:12:00
true the only countries that have recognized Ahmed so far and his government and Muhammad Al Bish's government is turkey and qar UAE is not sure yet abdah B only had one phone call Saudi is not sure
1:12:12
yet Egypt has not even sent its foreign minister Jordan is not sure yet the regional countries
1:12:18
are not sure yet and I think when the Europeans are coming in I think the Europeans have come in and sort of said we want to have a role in this and the Turks are saying come to anara to talk
1:12:27
to us first about how we have that role first and foremost but I think it's an exaggerated comparison I've got final two questions for you um uh how forgiving should Muslims be with what
Forgiving?
1:12:42
happens in Syria over say the next year I mean you know you paint and and it's true that they're in a
1:12:49
very difficult and challenging situation they've battling all sorts of of enemies and opponents
1:12:57
uh they've got ideological opponents they've got internal problems they've got half their country
1:13:02
which is being wrecked by War uh they've got to rebuild their country Israel is uh at their their
1:13:09
doors and and bombing parts of of the the Legacy military uh installations you've still got two
1:13:16
Russian bases uh in the country you've got this whole array of problems and then you've got UAE
1:13:23
and Saudi that must be conspiring as you've you've intimated against them how forgiven should we be
1:13:28
of of uh and how forgiven are you of of um you know the Strategic moves let's say of of jalani
1:13:35
or Basher or the government in the next in the coming year I don't think it's about whether we
1:13:41
are forgiving or whether I am forgiving of what's happening there is a reality of a situation and there are a series of options and it's about how best can syrians make use of those options and I
1:13:50
think that everyone is a genius on the bench I think that when you are sitting in the sub
1:13:55
bench and you're watching the match being played it's easy to say oh he should have passed there they should have gone there they should have shot over here all the like and then when you're
1:14:03
actually going onto the field and you're actually playing you realize it's much harder to see those options that are available to you I think that's the first thing the second thing that is worth
1:14:11
noting is that forgiving in what aspect you're not the one who fought for 13 years to try to liberate
1:14:17
Syria you're not the one who went to the protest when Bashar Assad shut down those protests and slaughtered those syrians you're not the one who put yourself in hm's way you're not the one who
1:14:26
was put in those Sida prisons and disappeared for 30 years not seeing your family you're not the one
1:14:31
walking out of those prisons having to go to your home go to your sister who doesn't necessarily recognize your face and you have to explain yes it's me yes it's me you're not the one going home
1:14:40
knocking on your door hoping that 30 years later your mother still lives at this address because people don't even recognize who you are and you're knocking say m do you recognize me m you recognize
1:14:50
me you're not the one who had his City bummed into Oblivion by the Russians and by Syrian in war planes you're not the one who had Shia militias by the Iranians walking in with these
1:14:59
flags were taking revenge for Al Hussein and they take you home and they kick you out and they bring people to go and live in your homes now when you go knock in your home like ahed did he finds
1:15:07
another family living in the home and has to ask them politely to go and leave the home forgiving of what what nerve is this that those who sit keyboard critics and turn around and say that
1:15:15
we have to do it in the way that we say we're not fully aware of those challenges or sitting in there in listening to those conversations that are taking place I'm not saying we can't analyze
1:15:25
I'm saying that the very premise of the question and I understand that you've worded it in the way that many other people are trying to word it the premise of the question comes from an arrogance
1:15:35
I didn't do the but I'm going to tell the how it should be done I didn't do the fight for
1:15:43
what's right I sat at home and forgot Syria when uh there was a podcast I think of some Professor
1:15:50
I can't remember his name he said you just need to get over it as said is staying I can't but he said you just need to get over it the asset is staying many Muslims today who are
1:15:59
talking about Damascus were amongst those who when somebody Sayan Revolution they would look you mockingly in the eye and say what Revolution how can you still be talking about this nonsense
1:16:09
and today they are the loudest in talking about what Damascus should or shouldn't do I think the
1:16:14
reality is it's not about whether you're forgiving or not it's about what can you do in order to help
1:16:19
the syrians to advance their cause what can you do to bring about reconciliation what can you do to
1:16:26
help and support the syrians what do the syrians need that you can go and offer what can you do in
1:16:32
order to help them to get back onto their feet what can you do to heal sectarian tensions what
1:16:37
can you do to heal ethnic tensions what kind of narratives can you spread how what kind of stories
1:16:43
can you say where for example we say yes Iranian militias killed in the name of shiism but we will
1:16:49
not kill in the name of sunnism all we're saying is let's come together and move forward I'm just saying stop killing that chapter is done it's over let's move forward and move and Beyond and this
1:17:00
has been one of the main policies of the current government even though the Iranians right now are still threatening Syria openly and they're very upset about it but the point that I'm saying here
1:17:08
is beware of this self-righteous not you talking to people beware of a self-righteousness that you
1:17:16
believe is stems from a genuine concern to Syria but actually comes from an arrogance where you
1:17:23
sit on your chair with your cup of te on the hilltop while you watch the people striving
1:17:28
to survive to exist and for a freedom that Allah has blessed you with but these people had to fight
1:17:35
for it instead the second point that is worth mentioning is I think where the concern is for
1:17:41
Syria moving forward is that what is the identity of the new Syrian State Syria is 85% plus Sunni
1:17:49
Muslim UAE argues there should not be majoritarian rule in the UK they don't
1:17:59
have proportional representation UK have first passed the post whoever wins in the area goes
1:18:04
to Parliament and there's a reason for that they believe that if we have proportional representation we will have paralyzed government and nothing will be done we prefer four years of
1:18:14
majority and then change that majority after four years to make sure that a party has sufficient
1:18:19
time to do something so here in the UK no one talks about whether minority should necessar
1:18:25
be represented or not they talk about it only in so far as there should be a diversity of views within the party itself but the party should rule with a majority alone for the four years and
1:18:36
then the people will decide if they want another party and that's perfectly fine the question here is why do the western states not want to accept that for Syria why does the UAE which allows no
1:18:47
democracy no Parliament it's just one man rule by Muhammad bin Z and family rule by Al Nan
1:18:55
why does Muhammad bin z build Dubai build Abu Dhabi build the UAE and brag about how wonderful
1:19:01
a place it is to live and how wonderful of a job he did why does he say UAE doesn't need democracy
1:19:07
and over representation of minorities why does he believe Bengali shouldn't have citizenship and
1:19:12
neither should the pakistanis who are the backbone of much of the UAE Society he doesn't believe they
1:19:18
should have any representation in Parliament or the like why is he going to Syria and demanding an over representation of minorities why do the Saudis who a Pakistani can live in Saudi
1:19:30
his whole life and never receive citizenship that a Somali can live there and be dependent on the
1:19:35
cfala sometimes even paying the Cil to renew the cfala that person can have kids born in
1:19:42
Saudi who live their whole lives and never have citizenship but that's fine because Saudis will say this is our country I'm not criticizing them I'm saying this is the system that they believe
1:19:49
they should be governed how can they go to Syria and then say we don't want majoritarian rules
1:19:55
suis have majorian rule inia imatis have minority rule over 90% expats but that's how we do the
1:20:02
system there how can they go to Syria and demand that there shouldn't be majoritarian rule that takes place in Syria itself I think the fear here is that syrians want a certain way and they have a
1:20:14
majority for it the world will tell them you as a majority should be chained while we Elevate these
1:20:21
groups here instead and the challenge for the government is this in my opinion and and this is an advice this is an observation from what happened before in Tunisia when Gushi came to
1:20:32
power NAA came to power in first place they could have formed an islamist majority they could have formed the Muslim majority they had just under a majority they had I think they were
1:20:42
about maybe 15 seats short in third place came which had 28 seats together they could have form
1:20:50
a majority that majority would have been an accurate representation of the majority will
1:20:56
of the tunisians that didn't vote for a because they were a they voted a because they said the
1:21:02
new Tunisian State shouldn't be one where bin Ali bans the hijab shouldn't be one where borba drinks
1:21:08
orange juice during Ramadan in 1970s because he says the economy can't handle the lack of productivity and therefore I'm denouncing D you guys are allowed to go and drink during Ramadan
1:21:19
because we need to build stuff here in in Tunis and the L tunisians they said we don't want a war
1:21:25
on the majority Muslim population we want a state that reflects the majority Muslim population said
1:21:33
or the n's policy was if we rely on the majority population here in Tunis we can't rely on them to
1:21:41
protect us against the US and the West when they come and they make their demand we don't want
1:21:46
Islam or sh in the state so rushi as a gesture said to the Americans and to the Europeans I'm not
1:21:53
going to make a majority of Islamic tendencies in the government I'm going to bring Mugi who
1:22:00
hates the idea of sh in state and I'm going to bring Mustafa bin jaff who hates it even more
1:22:06
both parties didn't do very well in the elections but I'll bring them and form a majority so they
1:22:12
form a government and Gushi goes and says to the US Palestine is not our cause it's not Central
1:22:17
to us and then he tells other Western think tanks sh is not important to a society when Sal
1:22:24
may Allah release it from prison inshah his channel they interviewed and the presenter says very hesitantly you said sh is not important to society he goes no sh is very important to
1:22:34
society felt I need to play Both Sides the way that there is a concern Syria might play Both
1:22:40
Sides I need to play Both Sides because of the challenges and what were the challenges America might topple me through a deep state or through one of these secular parties and therefore I need
1:22:51
to make sure I keep the peace and I give them no reason to topple me when he announced that
1:22:56
Shar not important when people started buying up MPS and he didn't put a law to prevent the
1:23:02
buying in selling of MPS from businessmen cuz he said I don't want to disrupt the status quo when the election came in 2014 he found that he came second place he lost a large chunk of
1:23:12
people who had voted for him on the basis that he would present some sort of Islamic identity
1:23:18
for the state but he still retained enough of people who said that he's doing it strategically
1:23:25
2014 a year after CC School 2015 cpy comes out the president and says I'm going to announce the
1:23:31
financial reconciliation law islamically people want Justice they want restitution this law was
1:23:38
going to forgive all of the financial Crimes of the bin Ali regime error and NAA voted for
1:23:43
it with sipy when they voted for it in the same year four Banks were about to go bankrupt now
1:23:50
the base the base that voted for another they said you keep saying there's no money to help the poor you're saying there's no money to give us access to healthare you're saying there's no money
1:23:59
to give us an unemployment benefit system you're saying there's no money to continue the salary of a soldier who gets killed fighting terrorism and those soldiers come from poor families so surely
1:24:10
you can't bail out these Banks right and votes to bail out the four Banks so the base they say Islam
1:24:16
tells us to help the poor and Abu Bakr sadik said that the strong amongst you is weak until I take
1:24:22
their rights and the weak amongst you is strong until give them their rights still Gushi maintains
1:24:27
That Base he still has it 2016 sipy comes out and says hang on this Constitution that an voted for
1:24:36
says Islam is the religion of the state but it doesn't say anywhere that I can't make laws that
1:24:42
are contrary to Islam so I'm announcing that we're going to change the inheritance laws he wanted to
1:24:48
do it to humiliate rushi internationally he'd been locked up in the presidency because rushi convinced the prime minister to betray him he said I'm going toi tells the West Islam is not
1:24:57
necessarily important and then tells the Muslims Islam is fundamentally important I'm going to humiliate him and force him to take a position and if he takes the Islamic position I'll call
1:25:07
him extremist and if he takes a position Pro we can say he's secular he lose his base either way
1:25:12
Gushi will lose Gushi when sipy comes out and announces inheritance law head of Ran's office
1:25:20
Muhammad gumman comes out and says Allah always so just clarify what wanted to do under Tunisian law
1:25:27
if you died your estate was divided according to the F of IM Malik unless stated otherwise simp he
1:25:36
wanted to flip it so if you died with no will it would be 50/50 between men and women Islam Islamic
1:25:42
inheritance law is complicated it's more based on your on where you are in the family tree if your parents have surviving how many sisters you have brothers Etc Muhammad gumani comes out and says
1:25:53
instead of saying categorically as a Muslim this is Haram and it's against the Islamic identity of
1:26:00
the state Muhammad G says Allah always intended for us to get to 50/50 but maybe we need to be more gradual than this one of's key advis at the time comes out and says Allah in the Quran gave us
1:26:12
the bare minimum and we are allowed to increase on it as we wish so that base that was withi on the
1:26:18
basis that he was he would protect the Islamic identity started getting angry 6 months later
1:26:25
who is head of the writing of the report of the commission to change inheritance laws she
1:26:30
finally releases her report on how she's going to do it when she does it and IM comes out and gives
1:26:38
a fire brand YouTube very charismatic and he says this is a war against Allah and his Quran what is
1:26:45
doing like what are these these parties doing so he arranges a protest alongside with some others my father included but in any case they arranged protests thousands of tunisians take
1:26:54
to the streets asking for what a respect of the Islamic nature of the state when these protests
1:27:00
come out another come out and say we're against the change in inheritance law but again has lost
1:27:05
another chunk of his base because Alliance they they come out of and they establish a
1:27:13
separate party so now that base that gave him first place in 2011 is sinking year after year
1:27:19
why because he is compromising in on the Islamic identity so he's losing his base but he's still
1:27:26
under more pressure the more he gives the more he comes under pressure from the other side so he's still stuck in no man's land then killer blow the following year the cartoons come out insulting
1:27:38
the prophet Muhammad sallah alaihi wasallam from France macron is defending it erdogan is condemning it Imran Khan is condemning it UAE is saying macron has every right to protect his own
1:27:47
security or the like's Facebook a statement comes out the head of party today met with
1:27:54
the French Ambassador and the two affirmed that French Tunisian ties are indestructible and they
1:28:00
will not be affected by omish by marginal issues this base majority Tunisian base majority Muslim
1:28:10
base a majority that if they voted in the UK they would have a majority in Parliament if they voted
1:28:17
on the US system they would have majority in Congress if they voted in France they'd have a
1:28:22
majority in the sh in in in in the parliament if they voted in any free democracy they would have
1:28:27
the majority and the Democracy would give them the right to uphold the Muslim identity even if they
1:28:33
were dissenting minorities the state would have to guarantee their rights but the state would be
1:28:39
the Muslim State under a majority Muslim rule this base no longer saw in ALA that it was the
1:28:46
protector of the Islamic identity which meant that in 2019 when the presidential election came there
1:28:52
were eight islamist candidates and na had split into eight different branches including former
1:28:57
an leaders and what ended up happening wasi did not win Washington they weren't satisfied with
1:29:04
all of the compromises he did not win Europe they weren't satisfied with the compromises and he lost
1:29:09
the base that gave him power in the first place who supported him on the basis that he would be
1:29:15
the guarantor of the Muslim identity so when K did his cool Washington did not intervene to
1:29:21
reverse it Washington said welcome K's rigged elections Europe did not go to rescue Gushi
1:29:28
they welcomed K's support to curb IM migration on the Mediterranean Coast when K did his coup none
1:29:36
abandoned him and so did the erdogan said that he failed himself miserably he didn't rely on his
1:29:41
people he ended up alone and abandoned why because in that no man's land that he found himself in
1:29:47
where he said one thing here and one thing to his base he won neither and ended up in prison may Allah release him from prison 2 4y old man does not deserve to be in prison at that particular
1:29:56
age the reason I tell this story of what happened in Tunisia is the government in Syria what Ahmed
1:30:04
aar's greatest challenge is from where will he derive power will he focus on the Syrian
1:30:11
people and the consensus amongst the syrians which is the only thing that can protect them
1:30:17
from Western machinations and the proof is turkey erdogan 2016 attempted coup on erdogan who came
1:30:23
to the streets to stop the tanks it was ordinary Turks why did they take to the streets to stop the
1:30:28
the tanks because erdogan built airports in Van he built in in in in sou Southeastern turkey he
1:30:35
built in Istanbul you saw in the last election the woman said how long did an ambulance take to come to this area before erdogan came to power now it comes within 15 minutes erdogan delivered
1:30:44
delivered in a way where even people who don't like erdogan's re islamization of turkey they
1:30:50
still vote for him even people who hate that he quotes in the parliament they still vote for him
1:30:57
because he delivers and as a result the reason he's so hard to topple in Turkey is because he
1:31:02
has enough of a base inside turkey that even if the Americans want him out they struggle to do so
1:31:08
because of that base the question for the Syrian government is where do they believe their power
1:31:14
is derived from does it come from the people and will their policies reflect that in terms
1:31:20
of keeping their people on board by delivering policies that align with the identity of the
1:31:25
syrians or will they walk this Middle Line the way rushi did and win neither here nor will they
1:31:33
win over here and I think that is the challenge whenever we talk about what's happening s it's not being forgiving or not yeah when you look at Sudan and and I promise I won't go too long
1:31:41
about this but you know we theah Muhammad one of my favorite poets Canadian Muslim poet says
1:31:47
we are all Reflections true so I can't talk about me without talking about you the stories that I have seen are stories that relate to you too in Sudan if you notice n was toppled the Americans
1:32:00
said n did sh they threatened Topp after one year other reasons helped to topple afterwards but he
1:32:06
was toppled after one year comes to power in 1985 hands over power to Democrat elections the winners
1:32:12
are pro-islam proar pro Muslim parties sad Ali rules for three years democratically from 1986 to
1:32:20
1989 the reason he does not remove Shar from the con stitution is because he knows the people will
1:32:26
Lynch him for it he knows the Sudan do not want to see removed when comes to power afterwards omash
1:32:33
is put on the sanctions him and Hass they put on the sanctions by the Americans implicit sanctions
1:32:41
and then explicit to 1996 but even when they put under sanctions they know what the demands are
1:32:47
for the Americans lifting it remove Shar remove Islam split Sudan into North and South and we will
1:32:53
lift the San why does refuse to do so why does refuse to do so why does the fore Minister not
1:33:00
adise him to do so why does not do so why do the other parties that join bash's government refuse
1:33:08
to remove why who are they scared of they're scared of the people who want it which is why
1:33:13
Sudan when bash was eventually toppled in a coup by Salah by the UAE and these others I know Sudan
1:33:20
some sudanes they uh they didn't want me to speak once at a university said he doesn't recognize our Revolution I said it's not I don't recognize the revolution it's that Washington doesn't believe
1:33:28
there was a revolution and Washington had its way in Sudan so you know it's not just me who doesn't
1:33:34
believe it it wasn't necessarily A revolution maybe a half Revolution I'll give it that but in any case when bash is finally tled when he holds on to power for too long when Sudan really feels
1:33:46
the impact of sanctions when Q turns its back on Sudan and refuses to help it when erdogan turns his back when Saudi and UAE turn their back when they topple what's the first thing the Americans
1:33:56
do they say these guys resisted us for so long we don't give them elections don't let them rely on
1:34:04
their people I want the generals to agree with leftist civilian parties with minority parties
1:34:11
who will never win a majority in an election I want the terms of the agreement to give them a majority in Parliament 69% I think we already thinking Muslim podcast about it they gave him 69%
1:34:21
of the parliament appointed members of parliament Not Elected appointed 69% to enable them to change
1:34:27
the Constitution without having to go to elections and in those two years they bypassed the Sudanese
1:34:35
people to remove Shar to remove Islam and to remove Shar to move Islam and to normalize ties
1:34:41
with the Israelis this is what the Americans are after this is what they pressured Sudan for Sudan
1:34:49
has its stories of corruption it has its issues of misgovernance it has its issues it has a tale
1:34:54
of its own in terms of things that Omar bash did wrong but that's not why America was not against al bash because it cared about the Sudan Europe was not against bash because it was worried
1:35:05
about the sudania it was didn't give a damn about the Sudanese people they do not want there is a
1:35:10
trauma with regards to Muslim states and Nations the memory of the Ottoman Empire is still fresh
1:35:17
the memory of Salah is still fresh the memory of a civilization that l ed, 1400 years that could
1:35:26
not be be is still fresh the presence of an umah that refuses to abandon its values is still there
1:35:33
staring it in the face it doesn't assimilate it insists on its legitimacy as an alternative way
1:35:38
of life that can save the West too which is why it's one of the fastest growing religions
1:35:43
in Syria as the government navigates the foreign interests it cannot lose sight of the fact that
1:35:53
Syria belongs to its people it doesn't belong to Washington Syria belongs to its people it doesn't
1:35:59
belong to Abu zabi it doesn't belong to R it doesn't even belong to anara even though erdogan is a friendly Ally it doesn't belong to Ankara it belongs to the Muslims it belongs to the syrians
1:36:11
and in its history minorities Thrive Christians and Jews alike they thrived when Muslims ruled
1:36:18
and they were oppressed and repressed when the Muslims did not rule and that's why I argue
1:36:23
always whenever we talk about Syria going back to the original question I promise I'll finish on this point the indication of whether we should be forgiving or not is absolutely irrelevant it
1:36:34
doesn't matter whether you forgive them or not the point is that we see the experience from what we see over here what we saw in Tunis what we saw in Libya what we saw what we're seeing in Sudan what
1:36:43
we're seeing these other places Whoever has the people on side is King Whoever has the people on
1:36:50
side is Invincible whoever can conin the people to march with them that person is invincible and
1:36:56
no amount of f60s can get rid of them the prophet Muhammad sallu alaihi wasallam when he was sitting
1:37:02
with his companions Abu sufyan leaders of qur they sent somebody to Medina to try to find a collaborator when they went to Medina he came back he said not a single one of them will sell them no
1:37:12
matter how much money you give them not a single person will sell Muhammad s alaihi wasam and the
1:37:19
reason why is that the prophet Muhammad sallallah alaihi wasallam when he would give his dawa he would Elevate the ordinary Citizen and give them as much value as he gave the elites
1:37:28
of society so everybody felt they were part of that Society the challenge for this government
1:37:33
is what is the new social contract in Syria will it be a secular which has a history of
1:37:39
Oppression will it be a secular western style Western desired system that paralyzes Syria or
1:37:48
will it be a uniquely Syrian governance uniquely Syrian power that belongs to the um that belongs
1:37:56
to the likes and this reminds me of one thing that I wanted to mention after the coup lobbying
1:38:03
against tasks two secular liberals to write his Constitution after he tears it up illegally
1:38:13
these two secular liberals they go on all the networks and say we are going to remove Islam is the religion of the state and we are going to remove from the Constitution because modern
1:38:25
constitutions they don't have religion in them what's this Islam it's includ in it tunisians
1:38:31
started getting angry they started protesting they started online getting very upset about
1:38:36
it s began to feel the heat on the day he was supposed to announce the Constitution he ripped
1:38:43
up their constitution and wrote a new one from scratch the first Clause he removed Islam as the
1:38:48
religion of the state he wrote Tunisia belong ons to the Arab um and to The Wider Muslim um and in
1:38:59
Clause five her wrote the sole purpose of the state is to achieve everything that Islam came
1:39:04
to deliver which is extremely powerful legally forget the fact for a second he's a dictator or
1:39:10
but legally it's very powerful one of's advisers of another wrote an article seeking International
1:39:16
Help against among the arguments that he wrote he wrote that has imprisoned the opposition
1:39:23
he wrote that has is violating the law has done a coup and amongst the reason he said why the US and
1:39:30
the UK should intervene K's new constitution threatens the Civil nature of the state by
1:39:36
entrenching Islam and the and the religion HTI who is committing a genocide in Sudan when he failed
1:39:43
to take Kum and was seeking International help he sent his advisor to Israeli television organized
1:39:50
by the UAE the argument that him advisor gave to the Israeli television as to why the US and Europe
1:39:58
and Israel should support H's attempt to take Kum and take over Sudan he said because quote we are
1:40:07
fighting in Sudan this the rsf we are fighting in Sudan the same islamist terrorist threat that
1:40:15
Israel is fighting in Palestine his exact words we are fighting the same threat that Israel is
1:40:22
fighting in the pales infections now himti when you think about it why would his advisor present
1:40:28
that argument it's because he believes that argument resonates with Western capitals how
1:40:34
does he know they resonate with Western capitals he knows because from 2019 when he was the number two in government he met all of the UN envoys he met all of the US envoys he met all of the
1:40:46
UK envoys he met all of the European envoys and from his four years of working with these envoys
1:40:54
he found a common message that formed his PR in terms of seeking support for his genocide
1:41:01
in Sudan that he enjoys today and the strongest argument he could give was not that the state is
1:41:07
corrupt was not that the state might have human rights abuses was not that the state might have
1:41:13
secret prisons his strongest argument was you need to support me because these Muslims want Shar you
1:41:20
need to support me because if you don't it's Islam will be the main governance here in Sudan and the
1:41:28
Sudanese people might support it too so the US where they could have stopped HTI they said HTI
1:41:34
go ahead where the issue of Sudan has been raised in Congress Biden has turned a blind eye because
1:41:39
the uee normalized with the Israelis and now their lobbying is the most powerful in Congress because of that normalization with the Israelis when people hear that Islam is Central to US foreign
1:41:50
policy in the region this sounds like a conspiracy theory but the reason it sounds like a conspiracy
1:41:55
theory is because our um has not inherited the memories of the other limbs of our Umma we don't
1:42:02
we don't learn Sudan the way you learn about the suffragettes we don't learn Algeria the way you
1:42:07
learn about George Washington and the US Civil War we don't learn about Syria the history of
1:42:12
Syria we don't learn about it the way we learn about the Tony Blair and how he won in 1997 we
1:42:19
don't learn these memories we learn the memories of those who colonized the region we learn those me and therefore we view the world through those lenses a mix of a lens between the Islam limited
1:42:29
Islam that we learned the limited Muslim memories and the memories that we inherited from those colonizers and that's why the uee today when the uee Ambassador and you might be able to find the
1:42:37
link for it when he says that we in the UAE which according to its own Constitution is based on sh
1:42:45
even if they're set a casino and and the like he says in Syria we must not allow religious groups
1:42:55
to be represented in Parliament he's saying he's saying the risk of allowing democracy in
1:43:01
Syria means religious groups will get a majority what's he saying Jalan he's saying that if you
1:43:06
have democracy in Syria religious groups will get the majority and he's saying in Washington
1:43:13
to csis the think tank he's saying to them you don't want that and I don't want that and we need
1:43:20
to make sure syrians do not have their way do not let syrians freely choose do not let them decide
1:43:27
their fate for w they will choose Islam and if they choose Islam it will bring a Calamity on you
1:43:36
so better he says to create it like you created Lebanon leave it paralyzed yeah and that's the
1:43:42
final point I want to make here the syrians might say in the words of somean Islam is not a priority
1:43:49
here you're making it a big deal when it's nothing said the same look where he ended in Egypt said
1:43:56
the same look where they ended even now there was an exchange between my father and Jamal Sultan Jamal Sultan is a prominent Egyptian writer in Egypt so they're tweeting a lot of the Arabs now
1:44:06
are tweeting about how Syria should move forward so my father based on thean experience protect the
1:44:12
Muslim identity of the state protect it because it will keep the people on board with you the people want Islam as well so jam Sultan responds and says this stuff is not important right
1:44:23
now this Islam it's not important right now what's important is that he gets the the state in order
1:44:28
he gets the state in order why is it not important for us but it's important for the US when they
1:44:33
make it their primary demand that Islam should not be in the Constitution why is it that they believe the power of Allah subhana wa taala is number one on the list of Demands and we want
1:44:42
to put it on number 20 and that's why I'm saying that be careful what you wish for in the sense
1:44:48
that Islam is Justice it's not different we talked earlier in the first part about metaphysical and a political Islam is Justice Islam guarantees the rights of the minorities
1:44:58
and I know I've stretched my time on this but just to hit this point home the epitome of
1:45:03
coexistence when you study at University what are the three places that they give you do they give
1:45:09
you Boston no do they tell you Washington no do they tell you London no do they tell you Beijing
1:45:15
no do they tell you Perth no do they tell you Rio digo no when you study in University anth rology
1:45:23
and you study the coexistence of religions and you look for examples of harmonious coexistence
1:45:29
what are the three examples that Western secular universities give they give you Andalusia when
1:45:36
the Muslims ruled it before Isabella came in and destroyed it they give you Saro of Bosnia when the
1:45:42
Ottomans ruled it because it was a place where the church synagogue and musos could be found within the same vicinity of each area and the third they give you is Jerusalem not when the Crusaders ruled
1:45:52
it not when the zionists ruled it not when the Europeans ruled it they say it was the harmonious
1:45:58
coexistence when the Muslims ruled it what's the common denominator of the harmonious coexistence
1:46:04
of minorities what's the common denominator of the religious coexistence of religious living
1:46:09
side by side the common denominator is the law of Allah subhanahu wa taala which guaranteed the
1:46:16
rights of the minorities in a way that the torat did not and in a way that the Crusaders did not
1:46:22
and that's why when people people talk about Islam is not important that that is the surrender to the secular ideology immediately Islam is Central because it guides the it guided Syria from the
1:46:32
time of mua and the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and it can guide Syria now and now the greatest challenge is this where do you derive power from will you trust
1:46:42
the people to back You When The World Turns against you or will you abandon the people
1:46:47
and abandon what is legitimately yours which is the right to rule as a majority that is of
1:46:52
afforded to the Brits in the UK that is afforded to Donald Trump in America that is afforded to
1:46:58
albanesi in Australia that is afforded to Macon it's not a b they have majoritarian rule will
1:47:06
you assert your right to majoritarian rule or will you allow your country to be ripped apart
1:47:12
by the false flag of minority rights that Islam always protected from the beginning of History
1:47:19
samam I think that's a good place to end today's conversation thank you so much for your time today please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
1:47:31
over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter ja
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