Ep 201. - Islamesque: How Islam Shaped Western Skylines with Diana Darke
When commentators talk about the relationship, often fraught, between Islam and the west, most start with the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent, North Africa and Middle East to western countries. A few years back, the British foreign secretary announced the greatest culinary delight of the brits was the chicken tikka masala. But many do not recognise the deep, often interconnected relationships between European civilisation and Islamic civilisation and how much Islamic influence contributed to what we today call Romanesque European architecture and broader culture.
My guest today Dr Diana Darke is a historian and Middle East cultural expert who wants to set the record straight. Her notable works include Stealing from the Saracens: How Islamic Architecture Shaped Europe (2020), Islamesque The Forgotten Craftsmen Who Built Europe's Medieval Monuments, and The Merchant of Syria: A History of Survival (2018). In 2005, she purchased a 17th-century courtyard house in the Old City of Damascus, reflecting her deep connection to the region.
You can find Diana Darke here: Website: https://dianadarke.com/about/ X: https://x.com/dianadarke
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
I was taught that civilization was European the timing fits perfectly with when Muslims
0:08
dominated the construction industry church bells ring out and blend with the call to prayer one
0:14
of the minettes is called the Jesus minet Mary gets more mentions in the Quran than she does in
0:20
the New Testament we can recognize all of that in the Damascus am mosque this is the time when the
0:26
Muslim civilization in Baghdad was two c CES ahead of anything that was going on in Europe one by
0:33
one I go through the features of Romanesque it's like a sort of huge piece of detective work you
0:38
mentioned piser and the Leaning Tower Crusaders often came back bringing sarason prisoners just to
0:45
give you a sense of how advanced the Muslim skills were that we have never seen anything with such
0:52
astonishing geometric Perfection do you have any anxieties about returning to the HTS Le Syria none
1:00
whatever when commentators talk about the relationship often fraud between Islam and the
1:09
West most start with the mass migration from the Indian subcontinent North Africa and the Middle
1:15
East to Western countries in the last century a few years back the British foreign secretary
1:21
announced the greatest culinary delight of the Brits was the chicken Tika Masala but many do
1:26
not recognize the Deep often interconnected relation relationships between the European
1:32
civilization and Islamic ones and how much Islamic influence contributed to what we call Romanesque
1:39
European architecture and broader culture today my guest today Dr Diana Doc is a historian and
1:46
Middle East cultural expert who wants to set the record straight her notable Works include
1:52
stealing from the sarens how Islamic architect to shaped Europe Islam esque the Forgotten Craftsman
1:59
who built Europe Europe's medieval monuments and The Merchant of Syria a history of survival in
2:06
2005 she purchased a 17th century Courtyard house in the old city of Damascus reflecting her deep
2:13
connections to the region Dr Diana dark uh welcome to the thinking Muslim thank you very much for
2:19
inviting me it's lovely to have you with us um actually let's start with that courtyard house
Damascus Courtyard house
2:25
uh in Damascus um uh so when was the last last time you you visited your your house in Damascus
2:33
in in 2018 okay during the Civil War so during the War I I I actually managed to get back seven times
2:39
during the war okay despite being blacklisted for most of it because I'm vocally anti-assad always
2:46
have been always will be yeah I was never one of those who who was in the sort of rehabilitate
2:52
Assad Camp right so uh uh yeah but I bought the house in 2005 everybody advised me against it
3:00
everybody said you're mad don't do it and um but I just I couldn't I couldn't believe that
3:07
I as a foreigner would be allowed to come along and buy a chunk of a UNESCO world heritage site
3:12
for goodness sake you know so I thought well I'm just going to follow my nose and see where it all
3:17
leads and little did I know where because actually pretty much all my subsequent work leads back to
3:23
that house so when people said to me when the war broke out oh you know you must be so upset
3:29
losing all that money in your house people don't understand it was never about the money right it was purely about being able to restore one tiny element of Syria's cultural heritage yeah uh
3:43
because the the Assad regime never had the money to do any any such thing you know they did a few
3:49
Flagship things but houses like the one I bought were just were just neglected semi derel you know
3:54
and and and falling down so I I saw it as a almost like a calling a kind of location to
4:01
you know to save one house and and that process because I I employed a um a Syrian architect I
4:10
uh together we built up a team of 15 Syrian Craftsmen actually some were Palestinian uh
4:16
because they were the best stonemasons even even even today as they were thousands of years ago
4:22
and uh and so it it was an incredible journey through the corrupt bureaucracy of Syria the
4:29
awful uh labyrinthine you know um you you couldn't you couldn't make it up frankly the the twisting
4:37
and turning of of what the regime expected you to do to get this license that license it was
4:43
all a money-making operation yeah um but you know with with the help of my Syrian Friends by by some
4:50
miracle we got through it all and and succeeded it was very unusual very rare to be able to do that
4:57
as a foreigner and I think I think I'm not certain about this but I may still be the only Foreigner
5:04
to still own property in the old city of Damascus and are you planning to return back to your home
Return back?
5:09
sometime soon well obviously now with what's happened in Syria uh you know because of my black
5:15
listing my my most recent um Visa applications were just all turned down and so I realized I just
5:23
had to accept that in fact I even went so far as um to get a German passport from my mother who is
5:30
thinking well if I apply on my German passport maybe they won't they won't they'll throw them off the scent or something but uh but anyway no so uh most definitely now with what's happened
5:41
out of the blue my goodness nobody foresaw that coming and I will most definitely go back in
5:48
fact my my next book is going to be on on Damascus anyway believe it or not I I actually you know was
5:55
commissioned to do that and accepted it back in the summer so um uh so and even you know I will go
6:04
back most definitely for the research and in order to see all my Syrian friends whom I'm still very
6:11
much in touch with and I should say that they're people from all walks of life different religions
6:18
you know different backgrounds and that's what's so wonderful about about Syria that you know I've got Muslim friends alawi friends Drew's friends is friends you know and Christian friends and
6:30
of course the Christian friends people have to remember are not just from one group of Christians
6:35
you know Syria has got 17 I think it is different denominations of Christianity it's very complex
6:41
picture you know um but people historically have reveled in that diversity and that that is what
6:49
I love about Syria I mean within that pluralistic context do you have any anxieties about returning
6:56
to what is in effect and HTS LED Syria none none whatever none whatever from everything I've seen
7:05
I I think this you know all this sort of uh this worry about oh these Al-Qaeda links and everything
7:13
uh are very much magnified by a western perception of these things but from what I've seen uh and
7:21
from what all my Syrian friends tell me as well but also instinctively you know the way I I've watched uh joani for a while you know what he was doing in idlib and now as Ahmed Asar he's you know
7:33
I I see the same things he in fact more so he I think is committed to a pluralistic Syria he
7:40
will take a pragmatic approach he doesn't expect everybody to be have exactly the same religious
7:46
beliefs as him he he's he recognizes that Syria is a diverse place and there needs to be a place
7:53
for all of those uh different people with their different religions and one of the beauties of
7:59
Syria used to be that um people didn't even think about oh what sect are you where are you you know
8:06
people didn't even know you know they're all mixed together in the same classroom at school so they were friends you know Muslims and Christians were friends without ever sort of thinking oh is
8:15
that an aloy this kind of mentality is what Assad fostered during the war to set communities against
8:23
each other that sort of divide and Rule principle which um you know is very very damaging but
8:29
but I think syrians have seen through it they really have seen through it and I think I think
8:34
collectively they see what's happened now in recent weeks as a massive opportunity to get
8:41
their country back and I uh I it's going to take a while of course you know I'm not I'm not saying
8:46
it's all going to be hunky dory straight away it will take a long time there's been a huge amount
8:51
of Destruction the infrastructures just shot to pieces you know so um it would be wonderful to
8:57
think that people could just get their electricity back like that with some magic switch but it's been destroyed you know so it's going to take a long time so in in uh Damascus they've only got
9:09
one hour of electricity during the day and one hour at night but they're working on it you know
9:15
and um there's a huge will to make it work and it's just going to take time that's all I mean
9:23
you're a cultural historian and you you you specialize in in in architecture and how much
9:28
of of of that cultural heritage of Syria Still Remains uh post Civil War well most of it in all
9:36
honesty so so in the case of uh uh Damascus the old city of Damascus was not destroyed in any way
9:43
at all the the occasional uh mortar shell would land somewhere or other and cause a tiny bit of
9:49
damage which was minimal but no I mean uh you know as so often the media focuses on the worst
9:56
parts so of course Aleppo did suffer massive destruction uh without a doubt as did HS the
10:04
the the old cities but um hammer not very much Pala obviously spectacularly blown up by ISIS um
10:13
so that is a big tragedy but then Syria's got a huge amount else you know there's there's a
10:19
farmia um which is a sort of mini palir if you like I mean it's huge and massive and so much of
10:26
it is not even excavated yet even pal is not fully excavated by by a long shot in fact um
10:33
estimates I think the last the last one I saw said that something like you know only about 25% of it
10:41
has actually been fully excavated so that there's there's a lot more there I mean Syria is so rich
10:47
it's been such a Crossroads of civilizations that every pretty much every early civilization
10:54
that you could think of is represented there uh and again that's one of the things I love about place it's so rich in its cultural Legacy I want to explore the relationship between Islam and
Islam and Europe
11:06
Europe and through the prism of these remarkable cultural gifts we observe in European architecture
11:13
that point to uh Islamic or Muslim architecture um but but I suppose it's fair to say that there
11:21
was cross-pollination between the civilizations I mean on the subject or back on the subject of
11:27
Damascus uh the Great mosque which has been on social media and it's become quite a central uh
11:34
um I I suppose symbol of of the the the completion of the Civil War uh you talk about a link between
11:41
that umad mosque and Christendom can you expand on that yes well I mean obviously uh Damascus was the
11:49
first capital of of the first Islamic Dynasty the amads so when the amads conquered Damascus in 634
11:59
they obviously inherited what was there before and so that was Christian buildings Christian Styles
12:07
uh and it's worth mentioning actually too that for the first nearly a hundred years Christians
12:13
and Muslims actually shared the site the site itself right in the heart of the old city has
12:20
always been the sort of spiritual center of Syria so it began life as an aramean Temple to a weather
12:26
God and then uh a Greek Temple of Zeus um and then a Roman Temple of of uh of Jupiter and um
12:36
and then it became uh the Cathedral of John the Baptist and John the Baptist's head is buried um
12:44
you know supposedly I think there are two or three other places that claim to have John the Baptist's head yes um but so that is in the site there and and for for nearly the first hundred years uh that
12:58
same site was shared by Christians and Muslims and they even entered through the same main entrance
13:04
Christians turned one way Muslims turned the other and it was only when the population outgrew that space and the Muslims needed more space that they um and this is recorded in the
13:17
in the Contemporary historical records that they um compensated the Christians and said right we
13:23
need to take over this space now and build a new mosque for our growing community and in
13:29
compensation we'll give you the sites for four uh churches where you can go and um build new
13:36
churches there and so to this day you know there are 17 uh different churches in Syria different
13:43
denominations and the church bells ring out on a Sunday and blend with the call to prayer it's one
13:50
of those wonderful things I used to hear sitting in my court R house um you know every Sunday and
13:58
of course when when they did decide to build that mosque then so it was built around about 705 to
14:04
7:15 to the very early 8th Century of course at that time the top Builders were Christians because
14:12
you know they they they were the they were used to local building materials the local Limestone and
14:20
and so Christian Builders were brought probably with some Muslims as well to create this new
14:29
mosque and it's Blended when you look at it you can just see that it's Blended it's combining all
14:36
those elements that were there before so it's got It's got a helenistic Gable taken from the Greeks
14:42
it's got a byzantin dome um uh it it it follows the shape um uh kind of the space that was there
14:53
before that the the temple shape and you can even see the blocks of the aramean Temple at the the
14:59
base of it you know it's just astonishing you can see all of that you can feel it almost as you as
15:05
you enter it um and then one of the minettes is called the Jesus minet because that's that's where
15:13
according to local tradition Christ will descend on the final day of judgment is very typical of
15:19
the sort of blending of Christian and Muslim traditions in Syria you know there's a people forget you that Mary gets more mentions in the Quran than she does in the New Testament you
15:28
know Mary is a very important figure in the Quran and and so many of the biblical stories feature
15:35
in in in the Quran as well and and so the mosaics which are the one of the famous things about the
15:41
Amad mosque um mosaic art was uh a top byzantin speciality so that's not a field that Muslims
15:50
ever excelled in it the the best were always the Byzantine Christians at that so but now of course
15:56
they're working for new Muslim master so instead of doing their usual U mosaics of saints and um
16:04
biblical stories you know they're doing instead um an imagined Islamic Paradise with trees and
16:13
Gardens and rivers and some fantasized buildings so so this is this is one of the interesting
16:19
things that I focus on um in my new book is thees you know that okay we can recognize all of that
16:25
in the Damascus Amad mosque we can see that the Christians made made a big contribution um to that
16:32
mosque except that they're now working for new Muslim Masters the same thing happened then and
16:39
this is what so little recognized and what I tried to draw attention to so when the aads were kicked
16:45
out of Syria and the one prince the onead prince who survived abdur Rahman makes his way across
16:54
North Africa and sets up omad Spain so if you like it's in Spain is what they set up then in the 8th
17:02
Century they take all of that with them into into Spain and the um they they are so so much more
17:14
advanced than the European culture there they're two centuries ahead and I mean and and again you
17:21
can see that in the buildings so the cordiva mosquito the the the main Mosque of cordiva so
17:28
cordiva is the equivalent of Damascus but in Spain the Corda mosqu is the equivalent of the Damascus
17:35
ofad mosque it's modeled on it directly the same the same measurements the same everything now it's
17:41
been extended in subsequent centuries in a way that the Damascus of mad MK has not um and with
17:48
each extension all of the top Innovations from the Muslim world the understanding of geometry
17:55
of algebra this you know we're talking the peak the peak Islamic civilization in the um the House
18:02
of Wisdom in in Baghdad you know this is the time when the Muslim civilization in Baghdad
18:08
was as I said two centuries ahead of anything that was going on in Europe and they brought
18:13
all of that into the cord OFA mesquito into this very sophisticated civilization there in
18:20
Spain and the dome in front of the meab in in the cord of mesquito has got very early 10 th Century
18:29
ribbed vaulting this is how you hold up a dome um Made of Stone not of wood so you need to be
18:37
able to distribute the weight correctly um it it's very very advanced level of geometry you need for
18:44
that which didn't did not exist in Europe at that time yeah and then you see when when uh so so the
18:51
Muslims were in Spain for nearly 800 years it's a very long time but during the gradual Christian
18:57
reconquest of Spain the Reconquista as they call it of course new Christian Masters are coming in
19:04
and the Islamic civilization is on the decline and the Christian civilization is on the way up
19:11
but those Christian new rulers the new Bishops the new abbots you know they want the best in their
19:18
churches and monasteries and so the best are the Muslims the same exactly the mirror situation of
19:25
how it was back in Syria when the Muslims first first took over they went to the Christians who
19:31
were the top Elite people but it the the role was reversed and there's a there's a reluctance
19:37
to recognize that in in Europe that somehow when you um when you examine uh these uh when
19:47
you look at the architectural history books they they talk about oh you know around the year 1100
19:54
this miracle happened and there was this amazing burst of innovation in in churches and Cathedrals
20:03
and monasteries these wonderful Styles came in and they call it Romanesque yes and that's what
20:09
I'm saying here look look hang on a minute this look at it you know look at it closely because
20:15
actually the timing the techniques themselves even the decorative repertoire everything is what
20:23
was brought in from the Islamic world and then because they're now working for new Christian
20:29
Masters it comes in to churches and Cathedrals and that's what I'm proving in in the book Islam
20:35
esque so Islam esque is a word I've made up for the 21st century in direct challenge of
20:43
this term Romanesque and Romanesque is regarded as the first paneuropean style which leads on to
20:51
Gothic which then leads onto the Renaissance so so they're saying you know Romanesque is
20:56
is is the essential springboard for the whole of what then happens in European uh civilization the
21:03
flourishing in the Renaissance and I'm saying look that springboard was islamis these are the things
21:11
that enabled Europe to to make these future leaps in the following centuries yeah and that needs to
21:18
be recognized that's and and what's more you can train your eye to see it in the buildings and
21:24
and that's my point but yeah the evidence is the buildings themselves there's there's very little
21:31
documentary proof there are one or two people you know um who the history books record but
21:37
by and large time and again you get such and such a cathedral was built by Bishop so and so
21:45
or Abbot so and so and the Craftsmen themselves who actually built it yeah are Anonymous that's
21:51
it no names at all completely Anonymous until you get into the 13th and 14th centuries and then you
21:58
start getting a few names and by by that time of course these are all Christian names okay so so
22:05
I would like to come to this is It's a fascinating evocative picture that you you paint here of of um
22:12
what 11th and 12th century and uh architecture and and and the debt it owes to um uh to to
22:20
European CI to to Muslim civilization or Islamic civilization uh the term Romanesque like what does
22:26
that denote explain the Romanesque idea yeah well the crazy thing is that the term Romanesque was only invented in the 19th century Anyway by a pair of French art historians writing to each other you
22:38
know so in correspondence so it it's it's a madeup term but it's kind of stuck rather like Gothic I
22:45
mean the term Gothic was only invented in the 16th century by an Italian art critic you know and yet
22:52
we we now you know in the west are are boted with these terms that we can't shed and and um
23:00
I I think that needs shaking up you know this this this way of looking at it that this is Romanesque
23:06
and then that led to Gothic these terms are are nonsensical they're completely nonsensical because
23:13
the way it's described you know that then by some miracle Gothic architecture was born at at this
23:20
uh Basilica in Paris San Deni with Abott suer his name was and and you read any art history book and
23:28
this is what it will tell you the birth of Gothic took place there in that Basilica and I'm saying
23:34
look sorry you you don't just miraculously like some sort of Virgin birth a building doesn't
23:40
just pop out like that you there's a massive backstory that needs to be understood and and
23:46
I'm I'm highlighting that backstory and showing how it got to that point and where where all those
23:54
Innovations came from so so from the Leaning Tarot pizza or the Salsbury Cathedral um if I
Characters to find?
24:02
was to I don't go to Salsbury Cathedral tomorrow um um give me some specific examples of Islamic
24:09
architectural um techniques or Aesthetics that I should be looking out for to prove your point okay
24:16
well if if you want to look at um somewhere like Salsbury Cathedral then or or Wells Cathedral is
24:22
another good example um well there are so many frankly and this is the other thing it was so
24:28
difficult the book to narrow it down you know I was drowning in material was just so much you know
24:33
um I just uh had to sort of Whittle it down but but if you're looking at um the things that well
24:39
I mean actually in the back of the book I even have a gallery of images where of of you know
24:46
a whole range of cathedrals in in this country and in France and in Spain and in Germany and
24:52
in Italy uh labeled up with all the different um elements W um saying you know look you know this
25:01
is on the on the facade so so there are there are there are so many actually um but you you
25:06
learn you learn to recognize them so in the case of of Romanesque it's um the the structurally it's
25:16
the use of ribbed vaulting MH uh and the pointed Arch this is what starts to happen towards the end
25:24
of what they call Romanesque um and this is very much the the the timing fits perfectly with when
25:34
Muslims dominated the construction industry in in Muslim Spain and in Sicily don't forget the
25:41
fatimids were in Sicily for 300 years and then the Normans conquered Sicily and took a lot of
25:50
those Styles then and indeed the Craftsman back into France and then into this country and Norman
25:58
what what what gets called Norman architecture in this country is Romanesque Norman and Romanesque
26:05
are the same thing for an art historian so they talk about Norman architecture they mean Romanesque architecture it is one and the same because it was the Normans who brought it
26:14
here to Britain so so that's uh that's the way it's that's the way it's portrayed but you know
26:22
I mean I'm saying look all of that needs to be challenged because you're not explaining
26:29
you're not explaining where these things came from um and and this is where actually we come back to
26:36
my Courtyard house because the thing that provided me with my Eureka moment for Islam esque yes is
26:44
the the zigzag the the the pattern of the zigzag and in my house in Damascus there's there's a trio
26:53
of zigzags a pattern running all the way around the courtyard and I could never understand what
26:58
it was and I asked my Syrian architect friends you know and they said well we don't know we assume it's some sort of ancient archetypal pattern of some sort some Mesopotamian thing or whatever but
27:10
nobody could ever answer me that question but I was always sure there was something you know these things are never random in architecture whatever is chosen as a shape is deliberate it's not it's
27:21
not just some o i fancy doing a zigzag it is much more to it than that it's a deliberate choice and
27:28
and then by chance um because actually my brother recommended it I watched this documentary called
27:34
The Secret history of writing and it starts off showing the presenter climbing up to a turquoise
27:41
mine in uh in the Sinai Peninsula and on a hieroglyphic um pillar there is uh the hieroglyph
27:55
for uh for water is a zigzag okay and that then comes into the early Canaanite the very earliest
28:06
phonetic alphabet yeah where they take the zigzag and it becomes this the sound of M for for water
28:16
like May is is Arabic for for water may or may you know various dialect versions beginning always
28:23
beginning with the m and if you think about it even our letter M in English is is a little little zigzag too and so as soon as I saw that I realized my goodness that's it my zigzag in my Courtyard is
28:35
water flowing around it representing it's abstract representing water but it's traceable all the way
28:43
back to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs um and of course I then telephoned my architect friend
28:51
who's living in the house at the moment and and said show me a a photo of how the zigzags emerge
28:58
from either side of my Ewan the arch that faces the courtyard and what that revealed um was that
29:06
the zigzags emerge from a circle like that so like a spring they're popping they're coming out the water's coming out of a spring running around the courtyard and then disappearing off into
29:16
infinity and and he was so excited my my Syrian architect friend living in the house he said
29:21
my God I'm going to go and look now at all the other ottoman houses in in the city and he said
29:26
that it's it's the same in all of them they've all got it and it's clearly representing water
29:32
but here in this country you see the zigzag around Norman arches and it gets called the Norman zigzag
29:43
but go to Sicily go to Sicily and you'll see the zigzag everywhere in in monasteries Benedictine
29:52
monasteries because they've taken it from it without really understanding that it means water
29:59
theyve just um uh but also I suspect the Craftsmen themselves were brought back because you can't you
30:07
know just because you've seen a beautiful building somewhere and you think oh I like the look of that I want one of those you can't just get your local Builder to build me something like that you know
30:17
you need the skills you need the understanding so they would have brought the top Craftsman with
30:22
them the Normans once once you know they were wealthy by this point so they wanted to build
30:28
impressive Prestige monuments you know and so they brought top Craftsmen with them and of
30:34
course those top Craftsmen as well as having the structural understanding of how to use pointed
30:40
arches and ribbed vings to make buildings taller and stronger they also brought in the decorative
30:46
repertoire of things like the zigzag so suddenly you get the zigzag appearing all over arches I
30:54
mean you go to any Romanesque or gothic church and you'll find zigzags around around the Arches
31:00
anything that's called Norman will have zigzags there but that's it's not been recognized as where
31:06
it came from so so that was my clue it starts with a zigzag I even call the first chapter the
31:13
zigzag clue and then from that I think okay what if zigzags are just the tip of the iceberg what
31:19
if this applies to everything that they're calling Romanesque so one by one I go through the features
31:26
of Romanesque and I show where it's all come from and it without fail it leads back often via North
31:35
Africa places like kyuan you know very important very Advanced civilization um the alids who were
31:43
there before the fatimids you know so this is very very early and the Styles which you know you then
31:52
you get these decorative Styles um I mean I'd have to show you the images for you to fully for you to
31:59
fully understand it but um so in in 10th Century castles in rebarts as they're called in in North
32:07
Africa there's a a pattern like that that often occurs along the top of the wall it's it's purely
32:12
decorative it's not serving any structural purpose but that then appears in European Cathedrals and
32:20
it gets called Venetian Dental you know so I mean and and then Europeans just accept that
32:28
this is a European invention and it's Venetian Dental end of story you know nobody questions
32:33
where it all came from so so what I'm doing in this is like a sort of huge piece of detective
32:38
work um going right back forensically looking at every single aspect um and what's so great about
32:48
that is is you train your eye I mean I've got much better at it believe me you know as I've
32:53
the more the more Cathedrals I've been to visit um the the more I see it you know it's just you you
33:00
you your eye gets better and better at it so you you start to recognize every little every little
33:06
aspect you know the um the use of what are called quadrafoil um arches so you mentioned soulsbury
33:13
Cathedral for instance so the cloysters with um in in in uh Cathedrals like that with very
33:20
slender columns all of that is is an Islamic aesthetic the Slender Many slender colums that
33:27
start to appear here um the delicate tracery uh around within the arch um the particular shapes
33:34
that are used the use of lenes you mentioned Pisa and the Leaning Tower so in Pisa you've got these
33:42
tall blind arches and they're decorated with a lozenge inside each Arch that's exactly what the
33:50
fids were doing in in on on mosques in uh in Cairo the al-hakim mosque is got exactly that
33:59
a century earlier two centuries earlier even you know and and the reason the peasons suddenly get
34:04
it because there was no School of Architecture in Pisa before this at all there was nothing
34:11
but they conquered poo and and lo and behold a decade after that conquering poo in Sicily they
34:20
managed to build um Pisa Cathedral followed by the Leaning Tower using using the these Styles
34:29
and designs and techniques which they have seen in Sicily but in order to build those they will
34:36
have had to BR to bring the Craftsman as well and yet when you read about it yeah um in any
34:43
Western Source it will it won't tell you that it won't it won't piece all these bits of the
34:49
jigsaw together it will just you know as I said it it makes it sound as if by some miracle around
34:57
about the year 1100 all this stuff suddenly miraculously was Europe emerging from its
35:03
Dark Ages and you know wasn't it a wonderful time without looking at it and saying look hang on a
35:09
minute why why nothing just appears by Magic like that there's there's a reason and uh picking up on
Palestinian craftsmen
35:17
on the Craftsmen you talk about two particular Craftsmen Palestinian craftsmen who were quite important of his story Lis andma um tell me about these Craftsmen and why they important uh yeah
35:29
well it's very rare for the for the historical sources to mention the name of a Craftsman around
35:35
this time and to then give where he came from that doesn't it's very rare so the two Lis andar that
35:43
you've mentioned are pretty much the only two I was able to find for this country for Britain um
35:49
and the reason it's documented is that um so Lis was brought back by a returning crusader
35:58
uh who was a Welsh a Welsh Knight a Gorgan Knight and it's recorded that he came back with and this
36:07
happened quite a lot actually it is recorded that c um Crusaders often came back bringing sarason
36:14
prisoners and why would they do that because they had skills that um that they knew were not to be
36:23
found back in Britain so they brought these highly skilled people back with them and Lis um what
36:31
happened incidentally was that the relationship then between the Craftsman the top Craftsman and
36:38
the Knight becomes quite close actually I mean they seem to get on very well and and Lis is
36:45
rewarded um with being given um uh an area of land and stuff he seems to then have a family there and
36:53
there's a place called Liston in Wales which is named after him um and uh this is all recorded
37:02
in in the sort of gazers uh of Wales he he built Neath Abbey which is one of the earliest uses of
37:09
the pointed Arch today Neath Abbey is just a ruin but it's still a very beautiful ruin and you can
37:15
see the techniques and the Styles there and when the Welshman died um what's recorded in in the
37:22
Welsh Chronicle is that Lis then went to work for the king for Henry the and and so you know again
37:31
that tells you this guy was the top the absolute Peak person he had skills that nobody else in
37:38
Britain had you know and so of course people learned from him over time but at the beginning
37:45
he was the top guy you know and and and this is uh you know what I do in the book is to trace so
37:52
when you when you have the arrival of somebody as major as that the buildings that then start
37:57
to appear under Henry the are the key buildings in this country because that's where you can see my
38:04
goodness you can see all these decorative things appearing which were never there before and so you
38:11
know that they've been brought in um you know from from and then you find by looking back you can see
38:18
the buildings where they came from in North Africa in Cairo in Syria all of those places in Palestine
38:26
you know that you can see the antecedence of all these buildings so so we have this collaboration
Cultural understanding?
38:32
between Muslim Artisans and their Christian uh patrons um uh did you find evidence of more than
38:39
just sort of a transactional relationship did it Foster I mean this was a time of the Crusades did it Foster some form of cultural uh uh understanding between the two civilizations well
38:51
um obviously at this remove it's very difficult to know that um for for certain but but definitely
38:59
from what we can glean from the historical sources there are cases that are sort of um harder to
39:07
prove if you like that they're more they're more kind of in in the realm of folklore but um but
39:13
again I I look at them all because collectively they add up to something they're not just you know folklore that there are enough of these stories about returning sarens as they were
39:24
called I mean that was the language of the time Arab Muslims were called sarason by by by um by
39:31
Christians at that time so sarason coming back um and groups of them so so there's one recorded case
39:39
for example of a a crusader coming back with with a band of about seven um Syrian Craftsmen Masons
39:49
especially Masons you know this was stonework was their real speciality and um this ability
39:55
as I mentioned before to to um to craft you know pointed arches and and how to hold up the
40:03
structure then a stone a stone ceiling a stone Vault um because obviously so much stronger and
40:10
more durable than wood which caught fire and was destroyed regularly so that that was the impetus
40:15
to make it Stone which would be more permanent as and durable as as a building and uh just to give
40:23
you a sense of how advanced the Muslim skills were there there that that Dome I mentioned above the
40:30
Cordova mesquit the very earliest ribbed Vault that 10th Century we're talking there that was
40:38
examined by Spanish Structural Engineers and they'd wrote a report on it and they were just
40:45
flabbergasted by what they found they they said we have never seen anything with such astonishing
40:51
geometric Perfection and in in its entire more than a thousand years of existence it is never
40:59
needed a structural repair you know this is the level of craftsmanship we're talking about there so it is it is amazing but to go back to um your uh question about the integration
41:10
of these people so so this band of um sarens who who were employed then to build local churches um
41:19
there is evidence then that they of course they start to um to get married so they they Mar yes
41:26
yes they marry local women um and then families develop um there's usually a a leader the sort
41:33
of key man who's called a Pim which is again the local word meaning Pagan sort of the because he's
41:41
not Christian he must be Pagan kind of approach but even so the the the relationship is clearly
41:46
one of respect because of the skills you know you have to respect somebody who's got skills to that
41:52
level and so um uh the the the the name the names that uh that these people took on they started to
42:03
take on some Christian names just to fit into the local community better as as as you would
42:09
as happens even now you know somebody a new person from a different part of the world arrives with an
42:14
unpronouncable name you either give him a nickname or you or you call him Gary yeah exactly so you
42:20
know the same thing happened with Muslims so um and there are records of that by the way in in sic
42:27
you get you get records going back to the 12th century where in in land deeds and things like
42:33
that it talks about um Roger who was once Ahmed and stuff like that you know where where they
42:39
just changed their names and and Christians called Muhammad you know I mean it was very mixed up in a
42:46
way that today we we have trouble thinking that oh how could it have been that mixed up but it was it
42:54
was you know it was um so it was transactional up to a point because I mean what I what I establish
43:02
is that when rulers change that's going on at the top the top level and of course the armies are
43:09
fighting each other but for everybody who's not in the Army and who's not a ruler life has to go
43:14
on as before and whatever it is whatever skill it is that you've got you know whether you're a a baker or a metal worker or whatever you you need work to support your family so you're G to
43:27
carry on finding your work you know to the best of your ability and and and getting back to Syria
43:35
that's exactly what I see now in in Syria so during the war of course there were businessmen
43:40
who got rich under the regime um you know they found a particular area where they could make
43:49
Mega bunks and so they did they made Mega Box because that's what matters to them make loads and loads of money forget the politics you know forget the morality of anything we money you
43:57
know um and now now with the change of the change at the top these same guys because they're very
44:04
talented entrepreneurs okay so they ditched the previous thing and they found the new opportunity
44:09
so they're now topend hoteliers because of course You' now got the world's media and all these delegations flooding into Damascus so suddenly the place to make money is in the hotel business you
44:19
know this is what clever people do you know they find the opportunity um because life has to go
44:26
on you know just because the ruler has changed yes um it doesn't mean that everything changes in fact
44:32
far from it it tends to stay remarkably the same yeah uh in your book stealing from the sarasin
44:40
um you talk about a eurocentric view of of History which is airbrushed a Muslim contribution to uh to
44:49
Europe's story um this may sound like an obvious question but why why did this airbrushing take
44:56
place and why did does it continue to persist to today well it it goes back um I think into
45:02
the education system and um we um I mean myself included you know I was brought up at school I
45:12
was taught that um That civilization was European end of story you know Greece and Rome that was
45:21
it you know that was civilization there was no acknowledgement of where the Greeks got anything
45:27
from where the Romans got anything from and so I grew up with a very eurocentric Viewpoint of
45:34
of you know Europe being the center of everything really and so it was only when I then switched to
45:40
study Arabic at University and started to go to the Middle East myself but I realized my goodness
45:47
this is where the Greeks got most of their stuff you know it goes further back than I've ever
45:53
realized before and then of course I as I spent time in countes like Syria and um Palestine and
45:59
Egypt you know because I lived in these places for quite a long time and and I just began to notice um how how much um has been you know taken um how how how all those um similarities really
46:15
which um uh which which I think it's um important to acknowledge as I said I think it it um enhances
46:24
your appreciation of things like buildings and cultures if you can recognize the many layers
46:32
behind it all so so when I look at a a cathedral facade now and I I can see immediately okay so so
46:40
they've got that little double window thing that's come from that's the style which is taken directly
46:46
from Muslim Spain um the Slender columns um the the use of animals especially Fantastical animals
46:55
in the carvings uh you know all of that has come in via the Islamic world going right back you know
47:02
even pre-islamic obviously not just Islamic a lot of it comes way earlier than than Islam
47:08
as as we said right at the beginning Islam didn't everything didn't miraculously pop out with Islam
47:13
you know Islam got things from Christian byzantin areas and from Iranian cenan um examples as well
47:22
and and so you know it it all everything Builds on what when before and takes the best by and large
47:30
and synthesizes it into something new so so when I look at a at a cathedral facade now I can I can
47:39
kind of decipher it I can read it if you like so I can see you know the trio of pointed arches at
47:46
at the bottom the use of pearl beaded framing which is most definitely an Islamic thing which
47:53
has come into use in in cathedrals um the use of pairs of animals back to back or facing each other
48:01
that's something that's come in from the Iranian um uh art um uh sort of subjects if you like that
48:10
that they they seem to have invented this idea of paired animals especially Fantastical animals
48:15
that that don't exist you know just completely um you know crazy dragons and uh uh and then you get
48:23
creatures playing musical instruments as well the southern appearing in Christian Cathedrals much to
48:31
the puzzlement of um clergy the British clergy who look at it and think what is that doing in
48:38
my in my Cathedral wh why is this um crazy bear half goat half bear playing a loot in my church
48:47
you know and they tried to find um religious explanations for these things sometimes which
48:54
were completely ridiculous and and hilarious I I mentioned some of them in the book you know because they're actually quite funny the the things they dream up and where do these come
49:04
from sorry where do well well where they come from again you can trace it right back there's a whole tradition in in Arab and Islamic um art and and uh culture of animals playing musical instruments
49:19
it's a fun thing it it's it's the sort of it's It's the cff having fun in his court you know
49:24
it's uh so so even in the early Amad palaces there's a bear playing a loot um and there
49:32
are women too depicted in secular setting so in a palace not in a mosque but in a palace you'll get
49:38
women musicians in aad times in Islamic palaces yes because you know they've um that's what they
49:46
were their entertainment consisted of you know women musicians women dancers um Bears trained
49:54
to play instruments and do crazy things um and uh this tradition then Finds Its way
50:01
in but is very funny when it then appears in in a in a Christian setting in a religious setting yeah
50:11
I think that's hilarious actually the way uh the way that hasn't been understood before that it's
50:17
it's just baffled the clergy and they just don't don't get it they don't understand why all their
50:22
cloysters are suddenly full of these crazy beasts yeah um who who have no connection with religion I
50:29
mean you've written a number of books now looking at this debt at European civilization architecture
Acknowledgement of Islam?
50:36
in particular uh pays to uh to to to Islamic civilization or owes to Islamic civilization
50:43
but um has any of that been recognized today I mean you've written these books you've obviously
50:48
published it and it's it's it's uh moved around these books have moved around academic circles
50:55
but also broader cultural cires uh is there a movement to uh to embrace this link to the uh
51:04
Islamic world I mean at Heritage sites for example can we see now on little plaques um you know the
51:11
names of the of the unknown Craftsman or craftsman or the a not to to Islamic architecture it it it's
51:19
starting to happen actually yes I mean it it is interesting because there is the these things
51:24
take time that there's um there is the beginning of an acknowledgement that I've observed now so
51:31
um for example Durham Cathedral if you go to the website of darham Cathedral there's quite a bit
51:36
of um acknowledgement of borrowings that have come in from uh Islamic Spain wow and that they
51:44
specifically recognize and it's frankly undeniable when you go to when you go to somewhere like darham Cathedral um but they they do recognize it a few European sites I've seen acknowledgement
51:57
too of of Islamic influence and uh uh so it's starting to happen Okay um I've been told that
52:08
at B University for example um they changed the curriculum at University for for the architecture
52:14
course that they wanted to make sure that there is this acknowledgement to Islamic architecture
52:20
so so it's starting and another very interesting one actually um which is an exhibition that's
52:28
going on at the moment here in London um William Morris and art from the Islamic World up at um
52:35
the William Morris Gallery in walm Stow and that's running now until March the 9th I think it is and
52:43
that is specifically highlighting the fact that William Morris who we think of as quintessentially
52:49
English you know got the inspiration for his patterns his designs um from the Islamic world
52:56
and they've done that by showing and collecting in the exhibition all the objects which he himself
53:04
or members of his family owned and you can see it there you know so he's got he's got bits of metal
53:11
uh ERS with um designs he's got ottoman tiles and you can see the patterns replicated from from the
53:20
possessions he had in his own home he he was most definitely inspired by these and and he
53:29
copies is is you know not quite a fair word but he definitely takes huge inspiration from that
53:36
and synthesizes it into something slightly new but there's no mistaking where he got it from you know
53:44
none none whatever it's clear as day you know once once once you see it it's undeniable and and this
53:50
is what happens what I find with people is that um once I've explained it to them and and they've
53:57
read the book I often get people writing to me um and friends telling me as well it's amazing
54:04
how now I see it with different eyes I now now I get it you know now I once you've explained
54:09
it it's kind of obvious that that was the best comment I had you know that um I did a sort of
54:15
two-part seminar thing and and you know they they um the audience you know the um was was just sort
54:23
of saying my goodness I never understood for how to look at it but now that you have step by step
54:30
taken me through where all these things came from it really is obvious one of the and that's
54:36
it once you see it it's it is actually hiding in plain sight it's right there in the buildings the
54:43
buildings speak for themselves is is my you can't architecture doesn't lie you know it's there a
54:51
historical record it's not a document but it's a a record um that that tells you exactly what
55:00
happened and and where all the influences came from I mean Beyond architecture because you in a
55:06
way you could say I don't know if I went to Dubai today Dubai is you know it's got this massive
55:12
skyscrapers and in a way it's a nod to Western I don't know architecture right or American
55:17
architecture they model themselves and New York or or one of these mega cities uh that traditionally
55:24
would would belong to to of West um is there any evidence to say that Beyond architecture there was
55:32
this crosscultural input from the Islamic world to to to Europe um Beyond architecture um well
55:41
yes I mean the other fields uh in Islamic Spain for instance and as I mentioned you know the the
55:47
Arabs were there for 800 years nearly as very long time you know so so the influences apart from the
55:55
architectural thing um the other areas where Muslims dominated were um carpentry and metal
56:02
working the use um Agriculture and um use of water wheels so very very much more advanced irrigation
56:11
systems so in Spain for instance there um before the Arabs arrived there was only one Harvest a
56:18
year once they once the Arabs brought in their new techniques their new irrigation techniques water
56:26
management there were three to four um harvests a year so of course the productivity was suddenly
56:34
way way up you know and and of course they brought in all the different types of um food that we now
56:40
take for granted you know oranges and lemons and pomegranates and dates and apricots you know so
56:48
many so many uh things that we now just think of as normal when you actually go back and and this
56:55
this kind of thing has been studied and analyzed by um American academics like um Thomas Thomas
57:03
Glick and uh Brian catlos those are the two who've really really studied Islamic Spain in detail to
57:11
look at um the top areas that were dominated by by Muslims because they were very very skilled
57:18
so textiles was another one huge huge ability with silk and and the manufacturer of luxury and
57:26
textiles and of course the clergy then wore beautiful textiles made by Muslims uh and
57:33
sometimes they even had kufic writing written on on the hems because the Bishops thought that
57:38
this was the language of Christ they thought it was holy writing so they had it you know on the
57:45
hems of their beautiful gowns and things you know I mean that's uh I had a guest on uh a remarkable
Muslim contributions
57:53
guest year a few weeks back um and uh maryan Khan and she's the she's a a journalist and
58:00
she mentioned a throwaway comment about how um Islam contributed to uh the intellectual um uh
58:11
you know ascendancy I suppose of the West and the Enlightenment and um we had a torrent of abuse on
58:18
on social media was it was relentless you know how how dare you say that I mean can you wait
58:23
into that conversation by any chance I mean do you have any any um any thoughts about you know
58:29
that that intellectual uh connection between the Islamic world and and Europe well I mean
58:34
it's it's undeniable it's completely undeniable so so again going to um Muslim Spain and this
58:40
is all documented so at that time that I was telling you about so 8th 9th 10th century when
58:48
um Islamic Spain the calefate of Cordova was at its peak in the 10th century and at that
58:56
time the kaith you know had huge libraries with with you know I think it was 400,000 books um
59:05
and paper by the way was brought in from I mean the the Arabs didn't invent it it was invented
59:11
in China but it was then used in Baghdad and and the Arabs via Muslim Spain brought paper
59:18
into Europe so you know Europe was behind in all of that but then at the time of the Reconquista
59:26
these um the monasteries that I telling you about um they thought themselves very learned if they
59:33
had sort of three or 400 manuscripts there was a a real awareness that the real learning was was
59:41
the realm of of the Arab Muslims um at that time and and this was recognized um to the extent that
59:48
there's one actually very interesting example of somebody who went on to become the pope perect um
59:56
and uh Sylvester II I think his his name was but he was he was um in a French Monastery and
1:00:03
he wanted to study uh he wanted to improve his learning he was obviously a very clever young
1:00:09
man and he went he escaped from his Monastery and went to Muslim Spain um and studied with a
1:00:16
sarason philosopher and even then I there's um one version where he went and and studied under um uh
1:00:26
a sarason philosopher in in kyuan as well which was one of the top universities at that time so
1:00:32
there was a clear recognition that the place of learning was Islamic Spain and the Islamic world
1:00:39
you know that they held the key for all this knowledge the scientific knowledge the medical
1:00:44
knowledge um uh the philosophical knowledge um there was so much that that came in via VIA the
1:00:53
Islamic world but especially the scientific the scient ific mathematical um uh side of
1:00:59
things and and that this uh this um guy from the monastery that I've mentioned you know he he then
1:01:07
having having acquired all of that knowledge he was actually then on very good terms with his uh his teachers his sarason teachers and he continued to acknowledge them and was then as
1:01:20
the most learned man in Christendom at that time became the pope briefly only for about
1:01:26
two or three years I think um but you know and he openly acknowledged um where he got his learning
1:01:32
from which is you know rare and rather wonderful but again he's he's one of the few documented
1:01:38
cases he's sometimes called the scientist Pope Dr D dark I mean it's it's really been fascinating
Train your eyes
1:01:45
um you're a distinguished academic and offer of course and I hope it's not insulting if I say do you do walking tours be wonderful to to to go with you to to the cathedrals across the
1:01:55
UK and Beyond well I um yeah I've never thought about it I've never thought about it yeah yeah
1:02:05
yeah yeah I mean you know I I do it I do it um instinctively now I mean now I just love
1:02:13
going around Cathedrals and you know it even each time you go you see new things you know you don't
1:02:21
you don't get it all the first time you have to you have to go and revisit and revisit and each
1:02:26
time you know different things suddenly pop out the more you look the more you see it really is
1:02:32
like that and it it's it's uh it is a case of of hiding in plain sight as I say you just need
1:02:38
to train your eye and then it's undeniable as well brilliant and so I think I mean I'm hoping that my
1:02:45
new word Islam mesque you know is going to become a word you know a proper word that gets taken into
1:02:50
the English language and that people and I've been pleased actually I mean the book got a a start
1:02:56
review in Publishers Weekly which is apparently only given to books of what do they say exceptional quality and distinction it had a review in the guardian last week very
1:03:06
positive Middle East eye very almost over the top positive but uh but yeah no I'm uh inevitably
1:03:14
there is some push back there always is within because it is it is saying some quite you know
1:03:20
it requires a complete rethinking of European art history basically I'm I'm sort of taking
1:03:26
it on and saying look you have to completely rethink this brilliant and I'm I'm just looking
1:03:31
for flicking for your Works got it's very well Illustrated yeah it's a very visual subject and
1:03:37
you have to see the buildings and that's why I insisted that there was this gallery of images
1:03:42
at the back where we label everything up so that all the elements can that being talked about throughout the book can be clearly seen well I hope my viewers do purchase your book and uh I
1:03:54
I hope to see many of them around Cathedral as so I yeah uh with these with these photographs
1:04:00
well Dr D do thank you so much for your time today well thank you very much for being a pleasure please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
1:04:12
over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter ja
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