Ep 203. - Gaza: Victory and Betrayal with Amr Abdul Latif

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The Gaza genocide has come to a pause, with the hope that a ceasefire will remain in place. The details of the deal has allowed many to return to their homes, shattered by a deliberate attempt to destroy all infrastructure. The West remains accomplices and its media have shamefully misrepresented what has happened.

Last year we spoke with Amr Abdul Latif, from Gaza who told us about his life growing up under this brutal occupation. Today we have him back on the show. Amr Abdul Latif who was until recently, a resident and citizen of Gaza. He came to the UK to study his post graduate degree at St Andrews University and now works in the UK.

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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation

Introduction

0:00

it's a very tough scene to imagine 10 to 15  years of memories and and life just Vanishing  

0:05

one of my uh cousins lost her husband in the  last few days before the ceasefire from your  

0:11

assessment um how strong or weak is Hamas  today and as long as the occupation exists  

0:17

people will try to resist it that just shows  how much the Palestinian people especially in   Gazza feel about the Syrian Revolution when my  father went back he told me there's nothing here

0:30

Thea genocide has come to a pause with the  hope that a ceasefire will remain in place  

0:36

the details of the deal has allowed many to  return to their homes shuted by a deliberate   attempt to destroy all of gazza's infrastructure  the West remains accomplices and its media have  

0:48

shamelessly misrepresented what has happened  last year we spoke to Amar Abdul Latif from  

0:54

Gaza who told us about his life growing up  under this brutal occupation today we have  

1:00

back on the show Amar Abdul Latif was recently a  resident of Gaza he came to the UK to study his  

1:07

postgraduate studies at St Andrews University and  now works in the country and welcome back to the  

1:15

thinking Muslim happy to be here well it's a I I  don't know what emotion to show um because we see  

1:24

Joy on our screens but also we see immense sadness  uh I know you're from the north of the country and  

1:30

you've you've uh your family ended up uh residing  in the South during this horrendous 15 months  

1:38

just uh I don't know give me your Reflections  on on what you've witnessed in this past week   hmer first of all I'm happy to be here and uh I  think the the show is uh is doing an immense job  

1:48

um at bringing awareness and uh keeping the uh the  Palestinian issue alive at this very critical time  

1:56

so um yeah I appreciate that um I think the past  week has been overwhelming um people are still  

Reflections on week

2:04

questioning is the ceasefire going to last or is  it not going to last and that's the main question  

2:10

people are are thinking about but also at the  same time they're thinking about how can we you   know um get uh get by uh our basic needs how can  we get our basic needs met how can we provide for  

2:24

our children um and that's a very uh critical  uh question for every go at this moment yeah um  

2:31

generally on the political perspective you see um  you see people being able to return people a lot  

2:38

of people gave up on the idea of returning to Gaza  City and the northern districts uh but we still  

2:46

saw people return in huge numbers uh from the  south uh my family is included in that as well um  

2:54

so generally people are happy to be able to return  to see uh what has happened um if you listen to  

3:01

PE to interviews especially live interviews of of  people on the way on the Journey Back you see how  

3:07

uh people have very very different opinions uh  but mostly they speak of being able to see the  

3:15

rubble of their houses put a tint on the rubble  of my house and sit in that Tint that's what  

3:22

people say they want to do um it's better than  living in uh in the South where you know no one  

3:28

basically because you fled to an area you don't  usually go to um so other people are thinking  

3:35

about how can we get the bodies of our relatives  and friends out um and it's a very tough scene to  

3:42

imagine especially with the uh with the amount of  Destruction that's uh that's been done but at the  

3:48

same time you see people celebrating the fact  that they're able to return as well as the fact  

3:55

that um they managed to get Israel not to achieve  its objectives and that in itself is considered  

4:04

some sort of a uh a plus let's say I don't like to  use the word Victory uh after all the uh after all  

4:13

the massive destruction and all the sacrifices  I don't like to use that word and I think um   on a personal level I think it's a uh um it's  difficult for a person to say that word without  

4:27

U without thinking about what what it could mean  to people on the ground that have lost tens of  

4:34

people in their family and in their friends if you  classify as a victory that would definitely hurt  

4:41

them I think um but we can get to we can expand  on that point later on um but I mean yeah people  

4:48

are generally uh happy about being able to see the  remains of their houses the people uh they've uh  

4:55

they've not seen for 15 months now um but there's  huge pain about everything we've lost and there's  

5:02

realization that this could actually hold and what  are we going to do with the amount of Destruction  

5:11

so just you know Express to us that amount of  Destruction explain what your family witnessed  

Level of Destruction

5:16

when they returned back to their hom in Gaza City  um so so my father went back first and my um and  

5:24

my brother accompanied him as long along with  one of my sisters that was split from her husband  

5:30

on the way back her husband didn't go uh to the  South yeah so that split uh resulted in huge pain  

5:38

obviously um but they went back immediately as the  uh as the way was open immediately I advis them  

5:46

not to I was kind of uh afraid the Israelis would  break that because it's such a humiliating sight  

5:53

for them to see everything they've been trying to  achieve that ethnic cleansing from the entirety of   the Gaza City and the Northern District um all  of it just fall apart so I thought they would  

6:06

bomb it but thankfully they haven't so far yeah  um so yeah they she's met her husband she's seen  

6:12

she's seen him she's happy to see him after 15  months but for my father for example he's lost  

6:20

his house um we had a uh an apartment building  I don't know how you describe that but it's a  

6:27

house with several floors my floor for example is  on the uh second floor my brother's on the ground  

6:34

floor my father and my mother on the first floor  um that's all flattened there's nothing left um  

6:44

so you're talking about 10 to 15 years of work  just Vanishing in thin air um and 10 to 15 years  

6:53

of memories and and life just Vanishing um and  I think that's a huge toll to have on a person  

7:01

especially especially older people um to see the  the work of their life just disappeared um so my  

7:09

father took that um it it hurt my father I  I think one of the things he said to me is  

7:17

I don't want to go see it he just doesn't want  to go see the rubble uh we're fortunate though  

7:24

um we're fortunate so my family we have other  options um so my father is sitting in a flat  

7:31

with my mother right now um my sisters managed  to go back to the remains of their houses and  

7:36

thankfully they weren't completely destroyed they  were damaged but they're salvageable like you can  

7:42

make them work uh with a little bit of Maintenance  um so we're much more fortunate than other people  

7:49

but also coming to realization like U my uncle  for example was killed by an Israeli a in this  

7:55

War uh my cousin his son was killed in the same uh  strike as well um not in the same strike actually  

8:05

when he was taking his body to the hospital they  bombed his uh his van on the way um and they also  

8:13

killed two of my cousins from my aunt's uh side  um and then they continued to kill people from  

8:21

the family and obviously were not the only people  were actually much more fortunate than others but  

8:26

there's like 35 people from My Father's Side uh  were killed in this war by Israeli air strikes  

8:34

artillery and things like that um four people  from my mother's side one of my uh cousins lost  

8:42

her husband in the in the last few days before  the ceasefire um in a bombing that just targeted  

8:51

a group of people just chatting in front of a  building so uh it's a huge toll but what makes  

8:59

it easier is as the as it's ongoing people don't  feel it that much you feel you feel the grief  

9:06

and pain as it strikes but then you're thinking  everyone's kind of in the on the same boat so you  

9:14

don't feel it that much but when when everything  comes down that's when real grief starts hitting  

9:21

and I think that's the uh that's what we're  getting to right now as gazin generally so uh  

9:30

I think we're we're looking at a very difficult  time coming um hopefully less difficult than   the moment that went from the outside uh you  said at the very in in the answer to to to my  

Victory?

9:40

first question that um you didn't you can't you  find it difficult to use the word Victory but  

9:47

of course you also said that uh Israel's plans  were th thed I mean you know Israel wanted to  

9:52

ethnically cleanse at least the north of Gaza and  it was forced into this um humiliation really and  

9:59

it it now uh is in a situation where it has to  see large numbers of people return uh to Rubble  

10:06

to their homes to their partially destroyed or  fully destroyed homes uh why did you find it  

10:11

very difficult to to call this Victory because you  know outside and this sounds very callous actually  

10:17

but outside we're all calling it a victory there's  an emotional difference um I don't know how to say  

10:23

this uh in English but there is a a difference  between a victory and and your enemy failing to  

10:32

achieve their objectives yeah you could Define  that as a victory and and of itself but if you  

10:39

want to say a victory out loud yes you're saying  that as well to the people on the ground if the  

10:45

people on the ground hear the word Victory some  of them may be delighted that's true some of them  

10:50

call call it a victory themselves I've seen people  that have lost way more than I've lost and they   call it a victory and they're very proud of it  but at the same time I can't bring myself to say  

11:00

a victory because I didn't live through it um I  didn't pay the the same sacrifice that the people  

11:07

on the ground have paid I find it very difficult  to use that uh to use that terminology yeah um  

11:14

when I haven't um when I haven't sacrificed  as much as them yeah um but I do realize I  

11:23

do realized that the Israelis haven't achieved  their objectives I realize that they've uh We've  

11:29

certainly um we've certainly gone back yeah  um we've achieved you know people are finally  

11:37

seeing their uh their prisoners come out so I  want to tell you a little story actually about  

11:43

this one of my one of my sisters calls this a huge  Victory here she's very happy about it even though   she lost a lot but um she she's a teacher and  during the the genocide she she made a school kind  

11:59

a kind of a school intent to teach  children and things like that so she   collected a group of teachers and they made  their own kind of project um so one of her

12:13

students has her father in Israeli prisons and  he's there for eight life sentences eight life  

12:23

sentences in Israeli terms I think they  have a life sentence is 100 years not 25  

12:29

years uh like in other places  so like he's in for 800 years and he came out in the deal in the first  few uh I think in I think in the second deal  

12:44

right he came out but she was absolutely  struck by it and she my sister mentioned  

12:50

the story to me yes she said imagine this  little girl she's like 14 13 and she's thinking  

12:59

for my father to come out and for me to see  my father why does my friend's father have to die and for a 13-year-old to say that thing  it it makes you wonder about the prices or  

13:14

the price or the toll that was enforced on the  Palestinian people generally but specifically  

13:20

the Gin yes um not only by the Israelis but all  their accomplices as well give me a reaction to  

Cost Gazans paid

13:26

the following comment I'm going to make I've met  with many I met with Muslims in the UK and they  

13:32

would say something like the people of Gaza have  paid a price for preserving the land and for uh  

13:40

for keeping um keeping sincere against this  oppression they're committing themselves to  

13:46

a rebat against you know the occupiers and uh and  there's there's this overwhelming feeling but the  

13:53

people of Gaza has has paid you know a a a high  cost that it's for a virtuous reason I mean tell  

14:03

me about how you respond to to something like that  I think that um to be honest I you may consider  

14:09

my statements a a little bit uh controversial  statements like that leave a lot to wish for  

14:17

in terms of empathy like I think people need to  realize that the gazen people are just people in  

14:23

the end um we're people we have emotions we have  dreams we have hopes like we're not a people that  

14:30

is just committed to uh a single thing that uh  that want to achieve it in any way possible like  

14:36

we are a people we have a lot of people that think  what you've said all right um and that is uh true  

14:46

but there's also a lot of people who don't a lot  of people who think nothing is worth the sacrifice  

14:51

of my children nothing absolutely nothing is  worth me losing my children uh one of my sisters  

14:57

thinks that uh um so for someone from outside  to say things like that it may be um it may be  

15:10

appropriate in certain scenarios but I think  generally it's uh yeah I think generally it's  

15:16

hurtful to to hear things like that especially  when the sacrifices for Freedom the sacrifices  

15:23

for the freedom of ala the freedom of Palestine is  not a thing uh um that should only be put on gazin  

15:31

or just on Palestinians imagine the following  scenario imagine if the war had happened yeah  

15:38

and Israel was left alone the Israeli entity was  left alone to fight and fend for itself it didn't  

15:45

have the Americans behind it it didn't have the  Germans behind it or the British um intelligence  

15:50

behind it things would have been way different but  you have a world war against a besieged people how  

16:01

do you expect uh how do you expect them to come  out you know victorious in mat in material terms  

16:09

I think if you say things like that you have to  make sure that you have um the responsibility and  

16:16

you're acting for your responsibility to be able  to say statements like this it's just something  

16:22

I feel but I'm pretty sure people would feel  differently about this there's a there is a good  

16:27

portion of gins who Gaz and Palestinians who feel  this um and feel like they've they've achieved a  

16:34

huge Victory like even people that have lost a lot  like I know a person um who's a doctor he's lost  

16:44

his entire family Wife and Kids everything he's  50 something years old and he keeps talking about  

16:50

how this is something um in the core of Islam  that we have to be patient we have to be uh um  

16:59

persevere uh in this uh in these circumstances  we have to do it and when it ended he proclaimed  

17:07

that this was a victory even though he lost  everything so I know people that have said   that and feel that but for someone who's not  taking up the responsibility that he has yeah  

17:16

or they have I don't know if it's appropriate  I sense from your from your voice and your  

Sense of Betrayal?

17:23

tone you feel a sense of betrayal is that is  that a right word to use generally when you  

17:28

think about betrayal you think about who do you  expect to come to your Aid generally yeah so if  

17:35

you're talking about that you'd expect people if  we look at Gaza specifically you'd expect people  

17:42

with resources people with um identity that that  are similar to you in Identity or people that are  

17:50

close to you in geography and I think that's also  like an Islamic kind of U thing um yet when you  

17:59

look at it when you look at it about what happened  in Gaza you see you saw Lebanon stand up you saw  

18:05

Yemen stand up and do do something yeah they try  to do something and they've paid a heavy price for   it both countries but what have you seen from the  majority of the uh of the people that share the  

18:21

same identity geography and resources you've  seen uh in terms of armies obviously no Army  

18:28

a little bit um you don't expect armies to move  you expect countries to at least do something you  

18:34

know it doesn't have to be armies moving for the  defense of Palestine even though that's something  

18:40

you would wish for um what you'd expect countries  to be able to let in food and water why did our  

18:48

people have to starve and go into absolute famine  um so that sense of betrayal is expensive and  

18:59

it's not just me that's feeling it it's it's  the majority of uh it's all of the gazen people   generally betrayal from other Palestinians for  example um in other parts of historic Palestine  

19:11

in the West Bank you've had the you've had people  doing some things in in some parts of the West  

19:17

Bank but the majority of the West Bank was just  you know observing uh obviously the P the PA has  

19:23

a huge part to play in this for repressing people  and everything but still you'd expect the people  

19:28

to be able to do something same thing for the  uh Palestinians in the occupied territories  

19:33

in 48 they've done absolutely nothing they like  even the protests they had like two protests the  

19:41

entirety of the war that I know of maybe they've  done more but they haven't done much of anything  

19:46

even political plays none of them were played  the representing parties for Palestinians or  

19:52

Arabs in the Israeli occupation government they  have Representatives not absolutely nothing too  

20:00

so that's only on the Palestinian side but you've  had jordanians protest that hasn't achieved much  

20:06

of anything but they did protest the Egyptians a  little bit but you haven't seen much of any you  

20:12

haven't seen a coordinated effort in uh either in  Palestine Jordan or Egypt or any of the close by  

20:20

countries even turkey like has played a negative  role in this um none of them did anything to stop  

20:27

what was happening through their countries um the  Jordanian uh land bridge that was sending supplies  

20:34

to Israel like that existed yet have we heard of  any any group of jordanians trying to stop or you  

20:42

know protest that specifically I do remember I  do remember seeing calls to protest um the land  

20:49

bridge uh on the street that were really heavily  repressed but the same time I haven't seen um  

20:58

I think the people of Gaza deserved for what  they've sacrificed a lot more than what was  

21:04

given definitely I mean do you feel that um in a  sense um Egyptians they're with you jordanians are  

People vs Regimes

21:13

with you I mean everyone is with the Palestinian  people and and are against this but of course the  

21:19

oppression of the regimes are such that uh to  voice that even that opinion in Egypt uh can be  

21:26

very extremely dangerous I mean do some empathy  for the very fact that these oppressive regimes  

21:33

are are repressing uh those voices that are pro  Palestinian um absolutely like I I do believe  

21:41

that the that the repressive regimes are playing a  huge part in trying to stop the people from doing  

21:47

much of anything yeah I believe that but that  doesn't repressive regimes can stop popular uh  

21:54

um actions like uh people protesting and things  like that they can uh dispel protests but people  

22:03

can do way more than just that so we've seen for  example um in the um what's it called the uh the  

22:14

journalists Society in Egypt uh protesting a few  times and the things they've said the protest  

22:21

they've done absolutely beautiful yeah Ian I'm  just thinking the malls in Dubai are full they  

Personal Responsibility

22:29

you know the instagrammers across the Muslim  world are still instagramming their Banquets  

22:34

and their food now I I don't know I mean I I see  this and then I see people starving you know in  

22:42

in uh in Gaza and you know I get it I get that  these regimes are oppressive but surely there  

22:48

is some personal responsibility I I I I believe  that as well so that's what I'm trying to say  

22:54

um but you don't have to look far like the uh the  balls in raal are full as well so you have to look  

23:01

too far um can I ask you about the circumstances  surrounding the ceasefire I mean it's very clear  

Ceasefire and Trump

23:07

now that probably Trump uh lent on Netanyahu and  forced this ceasefire through um is that how you  

23:16

read it and is that how the people of Gaza read it  um so yeah basically it's it's very obvious right  

23:22

yeah it's obvious that Trump wanted this to stop  uh for whatever reason he wanted it to stop but  

23:28

did um and that just maybe raises the question was  Biden really doing much of anything to stop it or  

23:36

were we really hearing true stories about how mad  he is at Netanyahu and how uh tough he's being  

23:43

yeah um I think this is uh this has become very  clear that the Biden Administration just didn't  

23:50

want to do anything uh they they supported this  and wanted it to happen uh through and through  

23:59

but when Trump came in he just wanted change  so that's what we're seeing um but we're not   fool we're not foolish right um the people in  Gaza are not generally foolish we have we know  

24:11

that Trump is mainly The Reason Not mainly but  partly the reason why everything has happened  

24:17

that has happened has happened because he pushed  the Abraham Accords in the first place yeah um and  

24:25

the Abraham Accords slowly started encroaching  on Palestinian rights and um the realization of  

24:30

Palestinian goals which was at least in the clear  terms uh what the Arabic State the Arab states  

24:36

wanted but we've seen that uh slowly bit by bit  the Arab states are taking different stances and  

24:44

ignoring or bypassing the Palestinian uh cause to  uh you know normalize relations and create better  

24:51

opportunities economic opportunities basically for  themselves uh which you can understand to create  

24:57

economic opportunities for your country is a good  thing but you don't have to do it on Palestinian   blood um obviously um so Trump was pushing this  so hard that it resulted in everything we're  

25:09

seeing everything we've seen and everything we're  seeing still and uh we're not stupid to u to also  

25:16

say that Biden was a little bit better because  when Biden came in he didn't reverse any of it  

25:21

uh when Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem  huge thing uh for Palestinians uh I mean a huge  

25:28

point of pain for Palestinians yeah Biden didn't  move it back he could have done at least the  

25:35

Democratic parties uh declared um goals when it  came to Palestine yeah he did not none of it so  

25:44

that's what people see people realize the these  things and people don't really differentiate much  

25:51

uh in terms of um I see a lot of people that  don't different differentiate much between  

25:57

American Administration people just see all of  them are basically the same all of them to us  

26:02

are basically the same they want to uh they want  to fight us basically because we're standing in  

26:07

the way of their projects so they want us either  quiet or gone so uh people realize that uh Trump  

Gazans to move?

26:15

has U announced that he wants Jordan and Egypt  to take uh more people from Gaza he talked about  

26:22

cleaning up Kaza um I mean do you believe uh there  will be a take up from the from the people to to  

26:29

move to these countries I think you'll need to  understand several things to uh to understand  

26:38

what's happening or what could happen MH um we've  seen massive massive amounts of Destruction yes  

26:44

when my father went back he told me there's  nothing here and he can't see any semblance  

26:49

of anything he said I couldn't even recognize  the main streets um I saw a video from the uh  

26:58

right opposite our house right a video of the  entire landscape in all directions there's  

27:03

absolutely nothing so if I go to my House's area  I wouldn't even recognize my house imagine that  

27:09

yeah so there is that much destruction there  is so much infrastructure damage that there   is no water at all from in in G Gaza City and  the north uh Northern District so that much  

27:25

destruction is there Palestinian people do not  want to leave their land generally but people  

27:32

also generally want opportunities want to feed  their children want to uh f for themselves and  

27:37

I think that was partly um the uh Israeli entity  goal um in inflicting mass destruction to force  

27:46

people to just find ways to live um but even in  that they failed to even they failed to even uh  

27:56

convince other countries or anything to provide a  way for people to leave you had Egypt saying you  

28:01

have to pay 5K per head to leave Gaza and it's it  it it didn't even work out for people that wanted  

28:08

to leave for them to leave so if an opportunity  arises I think there is a uh a portion of the  

28:15

gazen people that that would want to take it a  portion that would want to take it um because  

28:23

of how much destruction there is and how little to  know hope there is in terms of rebuilding in terms  

28:30

of uh uh political uh Avenues in terms of uh in  terms of a solution being implemented yes we don't  

28:42

see any of that we just see kind of if if we're  lucky a turn back to the status quo and a turn  

28:51

back to the status quo is the least thing anyone  wants we just want Palestinian Freedom Palestinian  

28:57

opportunities people to have their rights again  yeah and uh that hasn't been realized um so some  

29:05

people if the opportunity actually arises some  people might take it but I think the majority  

29:11

of people wouldn't anyway because we we're just  stubborn like that I think the majority of people   wouldn't some people disagree with me so I've had  this discussion with a few friends some people  

29:20

say yeah a lot of people would leave I think a a  minority of people would leave yeah I mean you'd  

Strength of resistance

29:25

imagine that some maybe younger people would leave  and and their families remain in in Gaza I'm just   trying to work out whether the intended aim of the  Trump administration of the Israelis is in effect  

29:38

to clear out as they say Gaza by uh opening these  avenues for for people for for an exodus um um you  

29:47

know there is a a conversation that um um has been  perennial I mean it it comes up often in in the  

29:55

western press about the future Administration  of Gaza and and this is where we get it to the  

30:01

resistance and Hamas and its role of course  they've said they won't tolerate Hamas coming  

30:07

back into Power I mean from your assessment um  how strong or weak is Hamas today I mean you can  

30:15

um you can just look in the um in the photos you  see in the media yeah um and the photos coming out  

30:21

from Gaza obviously the resistance still exists  in all the different parties of of resistance  

30:27

still exists Hamas included um so uh in terms of  power they've they've obviously been weakened a  

30:35

lot but they still exist and they will always  exist because their existence is Reliant upon  

30:43

um the occupation's existence because they want to  uh free Palestinians and as long as the occupation  

30:50

exist exists people will try to resist it in in  whatever means possible to them um and no one talk  

30:58

about the root cause like that everyone's just  talking oh how is Hamas or how is the resistance   going to deal with that or deal with this well the  resistance is a natural reaction to the occupation  

31:06

and how much damage we've been uh we've been  taking from the Israeli entity the occupation  

31:13

entity is just um continuously making lives of  Palestinians harder to this day there are people  

31:20

being killed in Gaza for example like uh today I  read the news of one fisherman fishing in the sea  

31:28

in Gaz was killed by the Israeli forces patrolling  near the sea I mean patrolling in ships on the sea  

31:35

so this is a daily occurrence so how do you expect  people not to resist that so even though they've  

31:43

been weakened a lot they will always exist so  you'll have to come to uh you'll have to come  

31:48

to an understanding of how do you want to deal  with uh with their existence rather than how do  

31:54

you want to eradicate their existence because  they will always exist there is no way around   this um so um in terms of administration though  a lot of people in Gaza don't want the majority  

32:07

of people don't want a way back to the status  quo they want a way for lives to be rebuilt at  

32:15

this point after everything we've seen they  just want their lives rebuilt in some way

32:20

um and currently you don't see you don't see  the international Comm Community including  

32:28

the Arab states and everything providing much  of an opportunity for that rebuilding uh an  

32:35

actual opportunity you see a lot of talk yeah  but in terms of U action you don't see much of  

32:40

anything so to be honest I'm not really that  much optimistic when it comes to that how do  

32:45

you feel about the release of the hostages the  Israeli hostages and just their state compared  

Palestinian Prisoners

32:51

to a lot of the what we see of the Palestinians  coming out of um uh of detention hi I think it's  

32:58

uh it's it's open for everyone to see right it's  a it's disgraceful what what's been happening to   the Palestinian prisoners it's one of the main  reasons uh you had parties uh come to existence  

33:10

resistance parties come to existence because the  situation for prisoners is getting worse and worse   by the years and uh when Ben came in he made it  several times harder for them uh to just live  

33:22

their normal prison life yeah um I I think that  situation is absolutely disgraceful and when you  

33:30

see the the Western countries and everyone seeing  this yet not speaking up about it or trying to do  

33:38

something about it it's mind-blowing especially  when you see how we've been literally under a  

33:45

mass bombardment yet yes you saw uh resistance  Fighters trying to you know take care of the  

33:54

prisoners they had give them food even though  it was so scarce and let them out in good health  

34:03

condition in a good health condition and that you  you can hardly find a single Palestinian prisoner  

34:09

that comes out in a good health condition you  can't see it so all the Palestinian hostages  

34:16

that are coming out you saw you saw kids and  women majority of them had you could see the  

34:24

bones through their uh through their skin so how  how do you expect people not to want to stop it  

34:30

in any means possible to them um I think that's a  that's one of the main problems in the uh in the  

34:38

Palestinian uh in the Palestinian cause um people  trying to come up with ways to free prisoners and  

34:46

so far the only way that has worked we've seen  is this um there was a one time during the oso  

34:55

Accord that some prisoners came out but they  were only Fighters prisoners like that but I

35:01

mean that's what we see and it's a huge problem  for the Palestinian Society um when we last spoke  

Syria and Palestine

35:11

uh there was a conversation between you and I  about uh Syria and um of course at that time  

35:18

Syria was a different country to what it is now  and um a lot of the backers of Syria in particular  

35:24

Iran um were um uh at the backers of the Assad  regime um you know were also quite at least in  

35:32

some shape or form helping the resistance right  um uh we get conflicting views on social media  

35:39

about how much the new Syria the liberated Syria  is appreciated by people of Gaza have you had a  

35:45

chance to have conversations with people back  home and and how they see uh the new government  

35:51

and in new Syria and The Liberation good question  actually so the majority of people I know in in  

35:58

the majority of them the vast majority of them  are couldn't be happier about ID's downfall they  

36:05

couldn't be happier one of my sisters um the one I  mentioned that would say you know nothing is worth  

36:12

sacrificing my children or whatever like I I can't  imagine losing one of my children for any cause  

36:19

whatsoever she did mentioned by the end of the war  in the group chat she said look if everything that  

36:27

happened happened because God was just preparing  the way for the syrians to achieve their freedom  

36:34

then it's worth it and that kind of struck me  especially coming from her um and that just  

36:42

shows how much the Palestinian people especially  in Gaza feel about the Syrian Revolution because  

36:47

we we feel it's very similar to what we've been  through yes uh that mass bombardment mass killing  

36:53

starvation and also the besieged uh people in  idlib for so many years people in tents for so  

37:01

many years like we've seen all of those phases  and a lot of people in Gaza were following it   event by event day by day um and feel strongly  about it so when Assad fell everyone was so happy  

37:15

everyone was celebrating yeah um obviously there  are a few people who don't uh who didn't want us  

37:21

to happen but even those people think about this  uh think about it from a strategic perspective as  

37:29

look this is detrimental to the Palestinian  cause because Asad probably helped some two  

37:34

Palestinians 30 years ago um so they think about  it from that perspective but the vast majority  

37:41

just uh couldn't be more delighted about it um  but where we differ uh and where we have many  

37:49

diverse opinions is on the future Administration  or the current Administration and then hopefully  

37:55

future administrations to follow yeah we don't  see much of anything yet from that Administration  

38:03

obviously it's only been in power for a month  and a half now yes so you don't expect much   of much there but we don't know how it's going  to go you see people being skeptical about it  

38:14

especially in how everything had happened like how  everything happened or came to happen uh in there  

38:20

but generally generally people are positive  about it and want to see good things happen  

38:27

the syrians uh because we just feel a lot  of resemblance to them uh do you think the  

Will ceasefire last?

38:33

ceasefire will last well everyone hopes it will  um with everything we've been through in the in  

38:40

the past 15 months no one wants us to come back  but people are really scared because we see a  

38:47

ceasefire agreement that is very fragile um it's  not very clear you see a lot of ways the Israelis  

38:54

are trying to break it and they're actively  breaking it every day in different ways creative  

39:01

ways sometimes but it's continually happening so  how long can it last and also you have to keep in  

39:08

mind that generally there aren't that many cards  to play for the Goen people at this moment so if  

39:18

Israel makes any decision if the Israeli entity  decides to break the agreement tomorrow the only  

39:26

thing that could stop it is basically the the  prisoners in Gaza U by saying we have some of  

39:34

your people left here if you want them out that's  that's the general way I think would uh that would  

39:40

be but so people are very scared about this and  people are uh you know scared especially because  

39:49

of phase two because you're going to open the  ra border and you're supposed to be letting in   for example 200,000 T 60,000 car for people to  live in like temporary places but you haven't  

40:00

lit in a single thing you're only letting in some  some food supplies and in some areas too so for  

40:08

example in Gaza City my father says he only has  access to some drinking water and that's it uh so  

40:16

he went from the south to Gaza City and he can't  find anything to drink I mean he he can only find  

40:22

a little bit of water to drink and nothing to eat  so is that that that is absolutely not sustainable  

40:29

but it's already breaking the ceasefire agreement  uh so if that continues you're actually holding   the Palestinians in or the gazin generally in a in  in an enclosed place with little to nothing being  

40:41

l in in a place that is filled with as gruesome  as this sounds but it's true thousands of dead  

40:51

bodies under the rubble right and this is an area  after after all of that destruction that is it's  

41:00

very possible that diseases will start coming up  you don't want that to happen or you're going to  

41:08

have a massive number of deaths in the span of  a few weeks so um people are really scared of  

41:16

these scenarios people are really scared yeah  I mean is there any hope for reconstruction in   the in the short to medium term uh when you think  about reconstruction generally people are split  

Reconstruction?

41:26

about this right um you have people thinking  um we if we were to judge by how everything  

41:33

had happened um from before uh October the 7th  we had uh multiple uh aggressions against Gaza  

41:45

from the Israeli entity yeah so in every single  time you had people talking about construction  

41:54

organizations coming up some countries uh make a  lot of noise about it but in the end you you find  

42:00

little to nothing being implemented on the ground  so people have almost always not seen a single  

42:08

thing in terms of uh efforts of reconstruction  you see some projects being built that's true but  

42:14

it's not related to reconstruction efforts yeah uh  for people that lost their houses so that's if we  

42:20

judge by past experiences but some people say with  the scale of Destruction this time that it has  

42:27

spanned literally everything with the possibility  of disease with the possibility of this Mass  

42:33

problems arising something has to happen or there  will be consequences to literally everyone um in  

42:42

the region so it can't this is unsustainable  but you don't see the political will anywhere  

42:49

to implement any kind of real solution that that  accepts Palestinian resistance as a fact it exists  

42:57

it will not disappear it will continue fighting  until Palestinian freedom is achieved so you  

43:03

either want to help or uh you find a solution  you have to find a solution for the Palestinian  

43:09

cause yeah uh there is no circumventing it there  is no bypassing it so for me personally I'm not  

43:15

that optimistic I think something will happen  in the middle of these two things where actual   reconstruction is implemented or nothing is  implemented I think something in the middle may  

43:24

happen where you'll have reconstruction efforts  but in the exact way the Israelis want it to  

43:30

happen uh so it will make it harder for resistance  efforts to come from the newly constructed places  

43:37

this kind of idea and they've already implemented  it once in Janine um in the past so that kind of  

43:44

idea might be uh you know uh float might float  around some some countries might take it up and  

43:52

try to implement it but any solution any kind of  temporary solution that nor Palestinian resistance  

43:58

is just doomed to fail and do you think the  resistance is stronger now how's it perceived  

Gazans on resistance

44:04

how is it perceived by by ordinary Gins um so  people are very split like always yeah um there  

44:13

are people who celebrate the resistance every day  and are very happy about seeing the Israelis being  

44:20

you know uh not achieving their objectives being  humiliated in losing some uh in losing some of  

44:27

their objectives yes so some people are very very  uh excited and happy about this and praise the  

44:34

resistance and everything and you see it in the  media like it's you don't need to hear it from me   but also some people on the other side are like  look we need a solution and here's the point I  

44:43

want to make right we've seen the epitome of what  the Palestinian resistance could achieve right  

44:51

armed resistance I mean could achieve we've seen  fighting for more than 15 months people coming up  

44:57

from under the rubble to fight you've seen like  crazy things yet in terms of results we've only  

45:05

seeing mass destruction and things like that it  definitely didn't collapse and it definitely will  

45:11

not collapse but will this bring us any closer to  Palestinian freedom is Palestinian Freedom even  

45:19

achievable through Palestinian actions in general  when we see a World War happening against small  

45:29

and Tiny Gaza with more than the equivalent of 10  hirosima Hiroshima bombings uh or more even in the  

45:38

span of a uh in the span of months on a very very  very tiny plot of land with nothing to it you see  

45:48

you start asking questions like can this even be  achieved so I think a lot of people are uh Happy  

45:57

because they can claim that Victory without  sacrificing anything without U taking much  

46:04

of the responsibility on themselves and  obviously we see a lot of people that   take up the responsibility and try to do good  things but see we see a lot of people just not  

46:13

doing much of anything and expecting that  oh those people will definitely do it those  

46:18

people will uh look at them they're very stubborn  they're very strong their IM their faith and it's   all good things it exists patience and faith  and everything is core values are are really  

46:28

core values in in the gazen mindset uh and I I  expect also the entire Palestinian mindset but  

46:35

at the same time there's a huge responsibility  for every person of humanity let alone you  

46:41

know Islamic values to want to do something or  everything in their means to bring this to an

46:49

end especially when there's several world that  are willing to take up the fight for 15 months  

47:01

or more or as long as it takes against this  small group of people you have to come to an  

47:07

understanding that people need to come uh people  need to rise up and try to join in the resistance  

47:17

effort to stop Israel from its actions to  bring about Palestinian Freedom he uh I  

47:27

I don't know it's it's very difficult to talk  about this because generally people have the   idea that the gazen people are very stubborn  and they're very strong and they're able to do  

47:35

things yes and that's true but there's limits  to everything and since we've seen the limit  

47:42

what are we doing about it my last question to  you really uh is is about Hope um do you as a  

Hope in future?

47:49

Palestinian as a gazin uh have hope in the future  of of of Gaza as a viable place for your family  

47:58

to thrive and survive in in the future I don't  generally I don't like the the idea of splitting  

48:06

Gaza from the rest of Palestine uh when describing  it for example on the question on the uh that you  

48:12

mentioned before and sorry for turning back uh  the administration of Gaza yeah yes um I think  

48:19

I alongside the like all of Palestinians want  something that represents Palestinians right so  

48:27

um it's not one party doing one thing or one other  party doing one thing no people need to be able   to vote in the people they want you know proper  democracy do whatever they um uh bring in people  

48:38

that represent them into power and that that  spans the entirety of the Palestinian Society  

48:44

it's not Gaza only it's not the West Bank only  it's not Jerusalem only it's the Palestinian group  

48:49

of people a Palestinian Collective that needs  something to represent it and uh that that new  

48:57

government or entity or whatever you want to call  it could have some plans for Gaza specifically  

49:03

because of the situation that happened but it  can't be split from the rest of Palestine and  

49:10

any sort of rhetoric to want to split it I think  is problematic um so generally that's uh that's  

49:16

something I think the majority of people feel  uh is needed uh on your point though about hope

49:28

I do have hope you can never lose hope if you're  you know if you're Muslim you can't lose hope I  

49:33

do have hope that um what we've seen we've seen  really good things happen at the same time as  

49:39

we've seen really bad things um we've seen people  uh on the streets in in in many countries we've  

49:47

seen we've seen initiatives really proud and  good initiatives um around the world trying  

49:53

to do something and that's very very good  to see we've seen Israel being humiliated   like uh on the international court of justice  and the international criminal court so you've  

50:03

seen really good things happen so you're hoping  that the future might be uh or would be good for  

50:12

the Palestinian cause in general based on the  sacrifices that the Galen people have made um  

50:19

so yes I'm happy and U optimistic that that  would happen and I cannot lose that optimism  

50:27

but the situation right now uh the Contemporary  situation is it's very difficult um it's almost  

50:39

unlivable so I would want my family to be able  to live but obviously every every person makes  

50:49

the decisions for themselves uh I mean one of  my sisters would uh would trade nothing for  

50:54

her to leave like you you can't imagine imagine  uh how much she would uh she would be willing  

51:00

to sacrifice just to stay but every person has  to make the decision for themselves but at the  

51:07

same time you don't want this to turn into uh a  mass exodus yes uh or you would risk losing a a  

51:16

very important part of the uh Muslim um generally  um so people need to do their part right now and  

51:24

help in whatever way possible um the gazen people  to be able to be steadfast and remain on their  

51:31

land uh build the their houses build projects  and try to make a living otherwise we would be  

51:41

looking at a much greater disaster thank you so  much for your time today thank you for having

51:46

me please remember to subscribe  to our social media and YouTube  

51:53

channels and head over to our website thinking  muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter

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