Ep 205. - Gaza and the Fall of the House of Saud with Abdullah Alaoudh
Despite the recent incendiary declaration by Trump to occupy Gaza and clean the land of Palestinians, there remains fervent talk that normalisation with Saudi is on the cards. The de facto leader Mohammed Bin Salman has made it clear that he wants to make public what is very much the reality: his embrace of Israel and probably the most significant political prize to the genocidal state. The kingdom, in many ways, is rapidly moving towards a westernisation, at least in economic and cultural terms – with concerts and sporting events and the mass incarceration of the many scholars, including the father of my guest today, Shaykh Salman Alaoudh. We are honoured to have Abdullah Alaoudh on the show to help us understand the new Saudi Arabia and its extremes. Abdullah Alaoudh is a legal scholar from Saudi Arabia. He is currently the senior director of Countering Authoritarianism at the Middle East Democracy Center (MEDC) and secretary general of the Saudi National Assembly Party.
You can find Abdullah Alaoudh here: X: https://x.com/aalodah
Sign up to Muhammad Jalal's newsletter: https://jalalayn.substack.com
Introduction
0:00
he thinks that he can make Saudi Arabia great again he literally told one Senator that he
0:06
fears assassination if this happens if if he normalizes Trump said about Muhammad B Salman we put our guy in Power how fateful do you think Saudi Arabia really is to the plan
0:17
of a Palestinian State how do you assess the ordinary Saudi and their sentiments towards
0:23
Palestine so he can control the narrative to give you false impression and for me to
0:29
be protected from my own people 98% of people absolutely supports the Palestinian cast and
0:37
then 90 something percent is a completely against normalization State security apparatus which is
0:43
the most horrific institution in in Saudi Arabia in charge of Prosecuting investigating detaining
0:50
and torturing people my father represented a discourse that is not controlled by the state
1:00
despite the recent incend declaration by Trump to occupy Gaza and clean the land of Palestinians
1:07
there remains fervent talk that normalization with Saudi is on the cards the de facto leader
1:13
Muhammad bin Salman has made it clear that he wants to make public what is very much the reality his Embrace of Israel and probably the most significant political prize to the genocidal
1:24
State the kingdom in many ways is rapidly moving towards a westernization at at least in economic
1:31
and cultural terms with concerts and sporting events and the mass incarceration of the many
1:36
scholars including the father of my guest today shik Salman ala we are honored to have Abdullah
1:42
ala on the show to help us understand the new Saudi Arabia and its extremes Abdullah Alder is
1:48
a legal scholar from Saudi Arabia he's currently the senior director of countering authoritarianism
1:54
at the Middle East democracy Center and Secretary General of the Saudi National Assembly
2:00
party uh abdah alayum and welcome to the thinking Muslim thank you so much for having me it's my
2:08
pleasure and honor well it's wonderful to have you with us and uh we speak in a few days after
Saudi Normalisation
2:15
that incendiary press conference with Netanyahu and Trump of course where he announced that he
2:21
plans to colonize Gaza and disperse its 2 million plus population I suppose my question for you is
2:28
where does this the normalization process with Saudi Arabia well uh let's go back to uh one um
2:37
uh specific uh moment in history which is when uh Sun law of trump uh like prior to his first
2:50
term uh got to know uh the Saudi chence Muhammad B Salman and um if you go to that interview that
3:01
Jared Kushner did uh it's actually a podcast in which he laid down uh in details that relationship
3:10
between him and Muhammad bin Salman and he said uh somebody from Muhammad B Salman's team by the
3:17
name of f tones he's an economist by the way approached Jared Kushner and in that um you
3:26
know uh communication um they said uh Muhammad B Salman is somebody who is looking forward to a
3:35
great relationship with the US and he's willing to do a lot of uh uh reforms and uh we'll look into
3:42
files that have not been looked at before and I think I want to underline this and then uh so J
3:50
questioner said well we have on the top of the agenda three F three files uh one is the file of
3:57
uh Islamic marasa SL wahab ISM uh the second file is treatment of women and the third and
4:04
most important file of all is the um situation of Israel in the in the region uh so F Toni responded
4:15
back and he said well we are a few steps ahead we have already written a proposal and we'll send it
4:21
your way and see uh how it looks uh so they sent a proposal uh for the of course top of the agenda
4:30
the relationship to Israel and Muhammad bman and fed tun in that secret document that actually
4:37
Jed kusher just talked about um laid down the map uh and pathway uh to normalization between Saudi
4:48
Arabia and Israel H and he said uh Israel should be treated as a normal player in the region and
4:55
Saud Arabia uh is going to be able to help toward that uh goal uh so I want to remind you this all
5:04
happened before Muhammad bman even became confence if you wonder about the relationship Muhammad
5:12
B Salan and the power and why Trump put like their the weight behind this guy and if you look
5:21
at the Bob Woodward um you know uh biography that he did for Trump uh about Trump he like
5:30
Muhammad like Trump said about Muhammad B Salman we put our guy uh in power meaning Muhammad B
5:37
Sal man in power also he said we saved his uh you know we saved him I think that's the safest way to
5:47
describe the the vulgarity of of of his phrasing toward that speaking about mhammad missman right
5:55
after kuki the the the Saudi journalist who was killed and dismembered at the Saudi C the Saudi
6:01
journalist who was killed in dismember at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on October 2nd 2018
6:07
so part of why Trump put all the like just to answer the question put all his weight behind
6:14
Muhammad bin Salman uh why they weathered the storm during theuk why they saved him why they
6:23
put everything behind him is to basically uh pay uh his part of uh the prize to fulfill his part of
6:34
the deal which is you come to power we'll support you as conference remove uh removing uh former
6:42
conference Muhammad B from Power making you the uh you know the the sheriff of town making you the
6:50
head of power uh in your turn you're going to uh do certain things but on the top of the agenda is
6:57
normalize with Israel uh of course have this huge transaction deals uh with the US in in terms of
7:07
arm sales and you know um and you name it so so if you look at the context of all what happened
7:18
and how Muhammad mman came to power and this relationship to Jared Kushner the normalization is
7:25
just an expected anticipated result of this sick relationship with Jared Kushner the US the Trump
7:34
Administration and the Western General Muhammad missman came to power uh uh like a large I would
7:43
say if I'm going to be really fair a large portion of why he came to power is basically to fulfill um
7:54
This Promise at least the promise that he made to Jared Kushner that he's going to normalize
8:00
with Israel and make it easier for for Israel to um be a normal actor in the region that's really
Saudi faithful to Palestine?
8:07
interesting um at that Co press conference uh a journalist asked uh Donald Trump a question about
8:14
Saudi Arabia and whether it was so interested in a Palestinian State um and uh he said Donald
8:22
Trump responded by saying no NBS and Muhammad bin Salman was not interested in that didn't feature
8:28
in the negotiation very prominently but of course uh Saudi Arabia was one of the first countries
8:34
in in the region to respond with a very strong denunciation of this plan to clean out as As Trump
8:41
would put it uh gazans and uh establish a Riviera in in the heart of the Middle East um so how how
8:50
fateful do you think Saudi Arabia really is to to the plan of a Palestinian State well a few points
8:57
here it's funny you mention this uh I was with somebody who is an Insider I'll just describe
9:05
him as such because I don't want to expose this guy just in respect for our you know confidential conversation um so he was asked about whether this guy that he knew um mammad Salman or know
9:19
still know uh um cares about the Palestinian issue and he literally said uh he he probably doesn't
9:30
and it's not just um a guess from somebody who knew Muhammad bman well but also it's uh what
9:38
Muhammad B Salman said um confident confidentially to some of the senior officials uh in the US
9:45
Administration this had had been leaked in the past uh but it probably didn't get get um the
9:52
attention it deserved uh the the the the the the point I want to make here number one uh is
10:02
that uh Muhammad B Salman came with this and the conference of Sabia with this hyber nationalist
10:13
agenda hyber nationalist discourse that does not care about what some of the people in the Muslim
10:21
World call it strategic interest uh and the Deep uh the Deep um you know strategy uh for Muslims
10:32
which is this relationship to the Muslim world having the soft power with the Muslim world or
10:37
the Arab world uh having relationship to Arab countries he thinks uh that he can uh Mak Saudi
10:46
Arabia great again if we're gonna use Trump's words uh he thinks that sa Arabia is for the sais
10:53
and I'm not making this up I swear to God it's a slogan that is used by a lot of the Saudi buts on
10:59
Twitter for so many years there are actually uh devoted accounts on Twitter and elsewhere it's a
11:08
dedicated project and program within the Saudi government to cut all relationship between the
11:14
the Saudi people and other uh Arab people and Muslim people around the world because uh they
11:21
want uh the Saudi people to be isolated easier to uh manipulate easier to control and also in case
11:29
of incidents uh like the Arab suing Revolution or things like like what happened in Syria right
11:34
now um the Saudis will be isolated enough will have their own issues will'll have their own
11:41
programs we have their own and that's by the way it comes to the the question about liberalization and all uh in Saudi Arabia so they have their own programs and agenda and ideas so this is
11:52
number one is this like hyper nationalist agenda Saudi first Saudi Saudi Arab is for the Saudis
12:00
and that's why also you see the mistreatment of workers you see the mistreatment of expats you
12:05
see the um the the uh immigrants EV in in Saudi Arabia being mistreated uh with like we have
12:14
been documented like literally tens of thousands of people uh being tortured some like a lot of
12:20
them were actually uh uh like actually a lot of them died in the process of building you know uh
12:29
cities basically and projects uh so that's number one about why uh this sense of carelessness about
12:43
the Palestinian issue so when you know this point I want to tell you the second point which is the
12:49
fact that I just mentioned mamad himself told that a lot of uh people that he does not care
12:56
about the fistin issue uh all he car about is what Palestinian issue can bring to the Sai side what
13:07
the Palestinian issue can offer to make Saudi Arabia more powerful um richer uh and that's
13:14
when he when when the when the discourse that with the statement that was just put out uh can serve
13:21
so the third point I want to make is Muhammad B Salman used the the uh uh the the the the
13:30
feeling the sense the absolute um sense among the vast majority of the Saudi people and like vast
13:40
majority of the Muslim people of the Arab people uh toward Palestine uh defending uh the land
13:48
against occupation against upper tide um he used that uh not to um embark on a project to serve uh
14:01
the Palestinian Cod but rather to use it for more gains for the uh Saudi government and I'm going to
14:07
explain how in in in three uh quick points here so one uh uh Point number one is that Muhammad
14:18
missan when he talked to the uh West uh generally in English he told them many times and he tells it
14:29
still to a lot of officials that it's not that he's not going to normalize he's not going to
14:36
uh basically sellout but rather he's going to have a price and if you ask why the price uh
14:46
he says and that's number two that uh Sadat was assassinated when he normalized and sa Arabia is
14:56
right now is more important than Egypt the Saudi situ ation and being the the the the stronghold
15:02
of Muslims and being the you know the the the land of the two holy MOS um and how that relates to the
15:09
third uh uh holy mosque uh is a really essential and and symbolic hely symbolic uh relationship
15:18
but therefore he's not going to give it up uh for for a smaller price and so he used that he talked
15:25
about assassination and he literally told one Senator that uh he fears assassination if this
15:31
happens if if he normalizes without a price and for assassination to be basically uh prevented
15:40
he has to be protected so we come to the third point which is the thing that he made uh about
15:49
the three um requirements or request that he made to the US Administration and by the way not to the
15:56
Israelis he's not negotiating with the Israelis which is funny he's negotiating with the US on
16:03
the conditions uh of how he's going to normalize with u Israel and the three conditions basically
16:09
he said one is to develop a nuclear uh peaceful nule nuclear program two is to have a NATO like
16:22
agreement with the with the US security agreement um the three is a huge uh transaction of arm sales
16:31
including F35 now if you look at the conditions and by the way they are like public they have been
16:39
made public by Everyone by a lot of people now it's not secret none of these things is related
16:48
to uh Palestine to Gaza West Bank Muslims around the world to the Palestinian Cod Palestinian issue
16:56
it just goes to the first point I I made which is this hyper nationalist agenda has nothing to
17:04
do with the Arab B has nothing to do with the with the Palestinian now I want to end with this point
17:11
I don't want to take a lot of like time like this question but um I want to end with this
17:17
point so now if you wonder why the strong vedican statement coming out from sa Arabia um right now
17:27
uh with all the pressure for normalization well again he wants the price I mean he wants to show
17:33
that oh the Saudi people is not going to tolerate me for doing this without a priz and for me to be
17:42
protected from my own people from the Arab world from the Muslim World from my own even you know
17:48
forces I have to be given this absolute protection mechanisms including this security agreement uh
17:58
by the way it's it's has to be approved by the Senate uh for this because he did not want he
18:04
he he doesn't want an agreement that going to be torn apart with the next uh admin with the
18:10
next president or somebody in the future he wants something NATO likee and just to explain to the
18:16
viewers what a Nat Nat like agreement look like it is when a country uh is is attacked uh the US
18:26
defends it like like its own country like its own land uh like it's part of the you know uh of the
18:34
US like it's 50 first uh state or first 52nd state yeah that's really really uh important so in many
Saudis sentiment to Palestine
18:45
ways your argument is that uh Muhammad bin Salman is using the Palestinian cause as leverage and uh
18:53
the apparent reticence that that exists there is is not reticence he just wants to uh establish the
18:59
the right price for for for his normalization now in your answer there you spoke about um the anger
19:08
the Wrath of the Saudi population and the general Arab population of course Saudi Arabia politically
19:14
at least is a very close society and uh we can often from the outside get the impression that
19:21
uh there is a muted response unlike most of the Arab world towards uh Palestine and maybe
19:28
we can we can come to the false impression or or or true and and I would like your answer to this
19:33
that many in Saudi uh share Muhammad bin Salman's uh view towards Palestine but it's unimportant uh
19:42
for for moving forward I mean how do you assess uh the ordinary ordinary Saudi and their um uh
19:51
their sentiments I suppose towards Palestine that's a great question well let me put um a
19:57
few points here so number one um Paul in in Saudi Arabia uh is illegal I know people who
20:08
were detained arrested tortured because they asked people on the street about general questions not
20:13
about Muhammad Salman even some of the programs uh and this is for a reason of course no election
20:19
nothing no polling why is that so he can control the narrative and how he does that that's number
20:27
two but by creating a large army online to give you false impression to give me false impression
20:38
about what the Saudi people look like how the Saudi people feel uh you will see thousands of
20:44
thousands people pouring into your own account once you mention s Arabia about anything or the confence or one program or whatever they do they do but they have a similar thing it's easier to
20:55
detect they always have mammad Miss man on their profile file they have one of the program they
21:01
put either 2030 or some of the other you know uh telling I guess tales about uh what these accounts
21:11
are we used to call them butts but I think now it's larger there are like real people behind
21:18
like getting paid like behind laptops and and and and uh desktops basically uh riding about Saudia
21:29
all the time getting paid full time thousands and thousands of them and why is that because they
21:36
want to give you the impression about Saudi Arabia and they want to tell you whatever the conference
21:42
says it's the general feeling of the public that's what the public in soia feels like uh but
21:51
sometimes from time to time this Lian something that comes kind of out of control tells about
21:58
what the public looks like or feels like when uh one time the Saudi government was pressed
22:05
about why they don't go quickly for normalization they Sly finally gave an accurate assessment and
22:16
polls about the the vast majority and they said 98% of the Saudi people not talking about the
22:24
Arab people Saudi people have been manipulated for a decade now have been try like controlled
22:31
tortured with this narrative with this rhetoric like dedication of thousands of accounts of
22:38
programs and everything about Palestine trying to distort the idea that Palestine uh has an issue
22:44
that Palestinians uh are people with a right that you know the the occupation the upper tide
22:51
talking about like uh you know Israelis as being friendly and talking friendly about the idea of
22:56
Israel and being part of the region despite all of that 98% of people absolutely supports the
23:05
uh Palestinian C and then 90 something perc uh is a completely against normalization against
23:14
normalization and by the way they only had to publish this once to prove to the West that
23:23
it is harder for them to normalize without like real price the only you know I think that tells
23:32
about the Saudi people more than anything so if anybody is just told or deceived basically about
23:41
how the Saudi public the general public feel about Palestine palan issue thean codes on all
23:49
these issues I told them to just uh I warn them against taking the impression from Twitter from
23:57
social you know networks uh generally uh about um you know people that you hear from SBE because if
24:04
you say anything else you'll be arrested I'll give you just a quick example my cousin my own cousin
24:09
ABD Al he was detained for many years because uh he was against uh normalization and uh noal
24:21
she was arrested and detained uh because also she said something long time ago about normalization
24:28
uh and nobody said anything it sent it sent a message to everyone in sa Arabia that you're not
24:34
you're not just going to not talk about uh uh like critically talk about projects inabia but also
24:42
even foreign policy that kind of disagree what what what is going to be the foreign policy of sa
24:49
Arabia can uh can get you detained and tortured so nobody can say anything so this I I think I think
24:58
this answers your question it very much does um I do want to talk about uh the so-called
NATO Saudi agreement?
25:05
modernization or liberalization project and the role of the scholarly class today in in the past
25:11
but just to pick up on a point you made there about the conditions that Muhammad bin Salman
25:17
has Set uh in order to normalize with Israel and these are negotiations as you said with the United
25:24
States um the NATO style defense agreement the transfer of of nuclear knowhow um how close do
25:34
you feel that uh America is ready to engage on on that level I mean uh before Trump's statement
25:42
this uh this last week uh there was a lot of speculation in the press that normalization was
25:49
coming very very soon does that indicate that the Americans are very much ready to sign a NATO style
25:56
agreement with uh with Saudi I think it's very unlikely at the moment um so not sure uh if if
26:07
Trump is going to do this and not because Trump could itend or or or doesn't want to I think he
26:16
wants to and he has no problem doing that it's just like it will need a senate approval for the
26:22
Senate approval it is very very hard to get the Democrats on board with such a a a pure Republican
26:30
project basically of protecting M um and for the for the for the you know new like Civic nuke uh
26:42
program uh Lindy gr basically said it once that he thinks a a help of sort it will probably be a
26:51
humble kind of project it's not what a lot of people it's not what it sounds like uh but the
26:58
they will make sure that it's something that satisfies the minimum of what the Saudi wants
27:04
and at the same time doesn't do anything really um and also make it easier for the ODS to normalize
27:12
so for the security agreement that's one for the nuclear uh program that's two uh as to the
27:20
uh transactions of course it's going like uh like like expected before as you uh May so in the news
27:30
like6 billion dollar even more than what Trump asked for uh have been offered by the conference
27:39
to Trump H and this is probably not because um you know investment or economic reasons um
27:48
otherwise they would have done it long time ago uh it's it's for Pure political reasons for the
27:54
protection of Muhammad B Salman his own throne and his own way to uh to power Abdullah how do
Political ability of MBS
28:01
you assess the political abilities of Muhammad bin sulman I mean is there a method behind what
28:07
seems sometimes like a lack of strategy well look um the there is sometimes a method of analyzing
28:16
such behavior from such dictators which is to uh throw in there the irrational Factor uh you know
28:29
like seeing seeing sometimes how decisions were made in the past and um you you'll be
28:38
you know laughing of how analysts from the west or elsewhere uh kind of overthink a lot of uh stuff
28:47
and how they were made of course yeah there are like major decision that like are contemplated
28:55
enough uh went through uh consultation and you know experts like um but there are decisions
29:03
that was just like made because uh they want to prove a point or they want to uh you know have
29:11
a posture of sort uh to one region or another to on one people or another so just to to to the to
29:19
the question of the rationality like if you look at the War uh in Yemen for example it was made
29:28
overnight even the Crown Prince at that time didn't didn't know was not completely on board
29:34
and this is not a secret the king of course has nothing to do with anything he has no idea he you
29:41
know about what's going on uh and part of what he did it is like uh he said he wants to kick uh
29:49
out Hui from you know now is has a stronger you know position in s and elsewhere uhi are much
30:01
stronger than when the war started none of the you know goals were achieved when Muhammad bman
30:07
blockaded Qatar he said he's going to make qar less impactful and weaker is stronger uh after
30:18
years and years of blockade uh and when he uh put the prime Min of Lebanon under house arrest in
30:28
slapped him in the face did uh they thought they're going to basically restructure the
30:33
Lebanese uh political Dynamics uh and make it you know uh better for Saudi Arabia and its interest
30:43
never had like none of this achieved anything at all uh they cut relationship with Canada over a
30:50
tweet because they tweeted about uh Samar and uh what did this lead to anything fruitful at
30:58
nothing it's just like they came back to like diplomatic relations relationship with Canada
31:04
and um it just sent nothing it just showed that uh there is an irrational accent of course now the
31:12
foreign policy is starting to get um a bit less I would say masculine uh a bit less aggressive
31:21
uh more steady you know at least um pattern than the T um but still the irrational actor is there
31:31
the the general I think theme for many other what what would have been rational decisions uh
31:42
is basically going to be this agenda of hyper nationalist uh driving uh force of trying to
31:52
restructure relationship between caban neighboring countries and Muslim countries and Arab countries
31:59
and basically um uh um kind of ref visit the idea that sa Arabia is going to to subsidize a lot of
32:11
stuff to other countries that's what mammed has in mind is that CIA is doing a lot of great things
32:18
and donating to other countries and this should stop it's like the same mentality that Trump comes
32:24
uh you know to the admin with um that uh you know Trump is doing a lot of like that the US is doing
32:31
a lot of you know uh stuff for a lot of people without anything concrete in return came with
32:39
that like similar idea that Saia is donating a lot of stuff given a lot of money given a lot of uh
32:47
you know subsidies uh to neighboring countries to Muslim countries even to thinkers to think tanks
32:53
to Institutions and this has to be completely Revisited anybody that that is going to have a
32:59
relationship to is going to do uh for one of like for one of two reasons one because they fear Saudi
33:08
Arabia fear the Wrath so not going to do with with the carrot but rather with the stick the wrath of
33:14
Saia it's influence its soft power it's it's you know it's TVs it's you know all all of that or is
33:23
going to do for Saia something that is worth uh for sa Arabia giving you something back on that
33:31
note I mean Saudi Arabia is experiencing uh what looks like a rapid social liberalization project
33:38
uh with western style entertainment at its core um now from the outside it comes across that large
33:44
numbers of of young Saudis are willingly embracing uh this new project um is there truth to that and
33:52
and maybe um calling upon your your earlier days as as a legal scholar in Arabia and of course son
33:58
of a very prominent Imam does that indicate um a how do I put it a a deficiency I suppose in
34:07
in the the kind of Islam uh that was promoted in in Saudi Arabia if that's not an impolite way of
34:13
saying it well look uh in 2017 muhammadan said he's going to uh takeia back to 13 years ago to
34:24
30 years ago uh to Prior to the year 1979 a lot of people the time uh kind of interpreted this as oh
34:35
prior to the um you know one incident or another I think he meant something either local locally
34:43
or regionally locally the prior to the uh besiege of meca by the Jimi an ultra an ultra conservative
34:55
um uh uh know militia leader who at the time uh uh yeah basically terrorized um pilgrims uh in
35:06
Mecca in 1979 uh for the sake of um uh applying a trer uh Shar and the other incident is the Iranian
35:20
Revolution the Islamic revolution in Iran uh that brought in the um basically at the time the
35:28
uh Islamic uh revolutionary uh uh group uh to the uh Iranian um uh surface so he said prior
35:39
to these incidents uh Islam uh was more moderate uh was more modern uh it was accommodating to U
35:50
uh social norms but at the same time uh open to changes uh Islam never imposed
35:58
certain way of attire certain way of uh you know and it goes on and on the funniest the funny part
36:06
of all of this is like the political part of Islam is never mentioned like which is like oh sh for
36:13
example or like adala or you know consultation or you know Justice all of these were Dr D completely
36:22
dropped off the picture because just quickly M man whenever he uses reform he never you like
36:30
use them for political like it's not like the political reform it's not like democracy for
36:36
example election basic Liberties not even when he allows people to mingle for example it's not
36:42
for everybody to do that it's for certain people to do that in certain things uh for you to uh for
36:51
example uh uh be be religious in a way you're going to be uh Ed and tortured and questioned
36:59
but if you're going to be religious or irreligious in a way uh you'll be totally respected and uh be
37:06
used uh actually as as as a as a token to prove to the west and other people that they are respecting
37:15
you know this and that and minorities and all that uh which is by the way like there's like a
37:21
majority in minority in Saud Arabia the Shia that that is being persecuted right now so it's funny
37:28
that he's trying to prove these points the west and trying to like portray certain things and at
37:34
the same time he's also uh Prosecuting people at home um so going back to this uh liberalization
37:45
question uh well first of all if you see people on the street uh going to these some of these
37:51
concerts or events a it doesn't mean necessarily that they are on board with the political project
38:01
because I have a lot of friends who agree with me on a lot of stuff especially politically but
38:08
if they they have Cinema they will go to um if they have a good concert they will they will attend they wouldn't have a problem with that if if if something that uh is fun or like let's say
38:22
um an event where there is a celebration of something or you know they would go
38:27
of course with a like with a with a Halal basic Halal requirements but I mean there are people
38:34
um who would do that but at the same time they they don't see mm as popular for example or they
38:41
necessarily or they do not engage politically in a way that they are you can call them you can see
38:48
them as on board with the political project uh of the state now what you have asked is a very deep
38:57
question that it's impossible for me to answer it will take a long time but let let me put it this
39:04
way uh when Saia started uh in 17 uh 47 uh it was that's how it was was portrayed in all textbooks
39:19
historical historical history history books in all um you know um uh everything that we have read
39:29
when it was a kid in all schools uh universities everywhere in Saudi Arabia that's how sa started
39:36
the establishment was in 1747 why that year is important because it was the year that Muhammad
39:44
B Abdul wahab met with Muhammad B sa the basically the wa the the head of the wahhabi uh uh thought
39:54
Wabi thinking the Wabi movement uh Muhammad B Abdul wahab um the founder of the movement
40:03
with Muhammad bin who was a political leader who was very UNP powerful I would put it that way he
40:15
he was only ruling one town that could not get any less important it's not even a capital of
40:24
anything not a capital even of a region in the N area in the Arabian Bon so it's it's within within
40:33
a region within a region within a small you know region that is not controlling anything so when
40:39
Muhammed ABAB came in he's basically exploded the the the the the ideas the the level of influence
40:50
the level of importance of not just this town but the uh uh the the idea of expansion uh in
41:00
the region and uh it became Saudi Arabia that we know it today the first Saudi state that we know
41:06
it today uh and the whole fight was not because they want to bring people to the rule of Muhammad
41:14
bin but rather to the ideas of Muhammad ABD RAB because of the ideas of unification what they call
41:20
it at the time um to let people um you know uh leave these practices that they described at the
41:33
time as Sher and joab movement um and that what made uh the wahhabi movement the wahhabi movement
41:42
uh if it I mean so anyway um so that was the idea behind and the relationship at that time between
41:51
the imab and theim um mmad B that relationship was formed in that year made Arabia Saudi Arabia
42:06
now right now with muham B Salman about like what three 300 years later try to interpret everything
42:16
happened uh and Tred to say that Saudi Arabia is going to be Saud Arabia either with or without
42:23
muham RAB therefore therefore Saudi Arabia started not 1747 but rather 1727 20 years before Muhammad
42:36
ABAB came to the picture when Muhammad M was ruling on that small town that that was like
42:42
nothing that that is going to be nothing for all it's like there are hundreds of leaders and uh rulers in the same region at that time in the araban peninsula with with a similar or much
42:54
greater power than Muhammad uh said oh yeah that guy ruling that town in 17427 uh is the basically
43:07
the the the the the nuclear or what do you call it the the the the the the seed The Original Seed
43:14
of what what has become uh Saudi Arabia basically it's trying to distance Saudi Arabia and the the
43:22
the country and its history from the ideas of Muhammad wab and being associated with mamab
43:29
uh and trying to distance himself from needing to consult with Scholars with imams and making imams
43:37
part of the process uh so it's funny that he said he's going to go to prayer to 1979 but there same
43:46
time not so old toab where this was a like this whole thing of s was established but right it like
43:53
at a specific moment what I wanted to and also that specific moment I reinterpret it in a way
43:58
to portray it in a way that it just suits me right now and what I want it to have um not right when
44:06
there were consultations between the two leaders or there are actually uh circulations of powers
44:13
among families but rather when just you know it it's just funny how they completely misinterpret
44:21
uh basically uh sprad this dis information and misinformation about the history of Saudi Arabia
44:31
in order to serve current leader right now uh in his own uh Throne I want to just end I know
44:38
I talk so much about history and went on and all so you know just yeah I just want to end
44:45
with this with this idea um when a sahwa came it's called what what is called the Islamic Awakening
44:55
movement in the 1990s 1990s like like relatively recent so my father was part of that mov actually
45:03
a leading figure in that movement um the the the movement uh while benefited from some and a lot
45:14
of ideas from wahhabi also is not completely a wahhabi thing uh wanted to make Saudi Arabia uh
45:25
the system in Saud Arabia Less monarchical in a way that it consults with the people and it
45:34
it it uh uh it basically um transforms the the the one man rule into like a multi-layer system
45:47
of ruling Arabia and it's not going to be against Islam so they wanted to prove because it's funny
45:54
but I mean at that time so Arabia said they're not going to be democracy because democracy is against Islam they're only protecting Islam by not transforming into democracy so the sah movement
46:05
and the leaders afterwards try to prove to the to the to the government that it's not against Islam
46:12
and they started to theorize how about how about like about how consultation um all of these things
46:20
you don't have to call it even democracy forget about democracy let's do something more simple
46:26
let's do something more basic uh which is to have institutions that represent the umah the people
46:34
call it the um call it the people and call these things these guys not not like meaning um Congress
46:44
people or you know parliamentarians but rather representatives in in Arabi like deputes call
46:51
them debutes that's what happened in Islamic histories many times ago many many times ago
46:57
has been a method used by so many people and don't call it elections call it consultations don't call it democracy call it a system of uh you know call it whatever you want it's just like what
47:09
leads to this idea of having a diversification of power so no man can impose uh what he thinks uh
47:19
is a right thing on people no man can uh Tak the blood of another uh man or woman
47:27
because uh he thinks he wants to do so h no man can exate um land or property from
47:36
somebody because uh they feel like it abdah mean that's a really fascinating uh explanation of the
Imprisonment of religious scholars
47:45
history and and um how in many ways Muhammad bin Sal Salman has turned against uh the religious
47:52
establishment can you maybe outline for our viewers because I think many of our viewers would not know the extent to which the religious authorities have been challenged
48:02
or at least undermined imprisoned incarcerated like your father in Saudi Arabia just just uh
48:09
give us a a picture of um what's happened since Muhammad bin Salman in effect came
48:15
to power yes absolutely so in in a quick uh line of points here leading to this event uh
48:28
was established during King fasel uh three kings before King Salman um and uh this was
48:37
used to basically uh have an official religious establishment for the Saudi government try to
48:47
basically take away um uh interpretation from the Independent Scholars from the people on
48:54
the street from the preacher from the people in the MOs from the IMs to imams appointed
49:00
by the state um appointed by the king or the conference and basically this way you control
49:07
you manipulate uh the narrative like you do with the political side with the media with everything
49:13
else with every other institution so basically institutionalizing this uh making it like a
49:20
church uh uh that that actually appointed by the state so it's even worse than the
49:27
the you know this church um you know State relationship in the west uh so that that
49:35
happened before Muhammad B Salman and then during King Abdullah uh just the king before Muhammad B
49:41
Salman uh there was in 2010 a Royal Decree made by King Abdullah to not allow anybody to issue
49:50
fwa except somebody appointed by the state and it took it like even further it paved the
49:56
way for basically um having uh only one thing which is an establishment that is appointed by the
50:07
state that is submissive that only uh uh becomes a mouthpiece a religious basically mouthpiece for
50:15
the state and everyone else uh what they call them the preferral or the not like Centric the
50:23
the the or the the the scholars or the uh the the imams outside this small uh you know uh nuclear
50:35
uh Point uh nobody can uh uh peeps so uh that's basically what paved the way for mham so when
50:45
Muhammad came to B in 2017 he Emar he embarked of course on taken over the religious institu the the
50:53
the the state institutions including the public public prosecution the uh Ministry of interior uh
51:01
the Attorney General uh and and the State security apparatus which is the most uh you know horrific
51:09
uh Infamous um institution in in Saudi Arabia uh in charge of uh Prosecuting investigating
51:16
detaining and torturing uh people um so did all of that in 2017 and then he started the first wave of
51:26
arrest um with my father my father was basically the first guy the first person to be arrested uh
51:34
he was arrested in September 10 September 2017 uh and a lot of people including me I say sometimes
51:42
yeah he arrested a few hours after a tweet in which he called for reconciliation between Saudi and qar but what is Way Beyond that way more important than that is that my father represented
51:57
something else represented a discourse that is not controlled by the state discourse that talks about
52:08
Islam yes but also an Islam that threatens the absolute monarchy of the State uh threatens the
52:16
ground in which the state was established on which is an absolute monarchy no uh uh consultation
52:25
whatsoever no divers ification of power uh no uh separations of power no nothing of no rule of law
52:33
even nothing that like uh you know so like that so my father islamically theorized about the the
52:45
the like how um uh for example revolutions succeeded in the in the Arab world in 200
52:57
at least at that time to some extent um or should succeed and and what what are
53:03
the methods uh and how democracy is not just compatible but the only way uh to basically
53:12
uh to have the rulings and principles set out by Islam for society to flourish and to exercise even
53:23
its own religion without the fear of the state and once the state intervenes it just controls
53:30
how you think about Islam and everything else controls about how you think about Quran and everything else so it's dangerous not only for for your own freedoms regardless of what you think but
53:41
also if you if you are a Muslim to your own Muslim thinking and thinking about like the musl like you
53:47
know the the thinking Muslim podcast so it's about how a Muslim can think about any of these things
53:56
and why they need the freedom and how the the the juristic uh sphere even prior to the modern
54:07
state was one of the most uh you know Wonderful highlights in our history how they protected it
54:20
from the rulers uh across uh regions you know across centuries like throughout history and
54:28
how the the jurists uh even prior to the otoman otoman Empire um succeeded in a way that actually
54:39
U created what we know today today as civil society institutions um it's it's it's a the
54:48
idea of for example or endowments how that made sure that they are economically indep dependent
54:56
from the state independent from the influence of everybody independent even from the influence of
55:02
the founder of that endowment itself and that was just a a rule made up by jurists long long time
55:11
ago like 1300s years ago where they said there there must be a separation between the founder of
55:22
an endowment and the endowment itself it's an idea that is like my blowing it's it's it's exactly
55:30
what made it possible for civil society to exist for jurists to flourish to say what they what they
55:36
said it it has become this huge compilations of f of jurist prudence of like in Islam that is
55:47
not comparable with anything existed in history because of this that's really uh fantastic um
Alaoudh challenge to establishment?
55:54
but then how much is is your father s malan Alder um not only a challenge to The Establishment the
56:02
political establishment but actually many ways a challenge to traditional sophism uh which has been
56:09
uh let's say a political and used by the state uh used by political rulers uh to control not only
56:17
Saudi Saudi population but control the Islamic narrative the world over well yeah look um I think
56:25
he was threat because of these reasons exactly because he he he comes from that background he
56:35
knows then know how uh he knows how all of all of this existed he studied basically literally
56:45
on all of these folks he knew them personally they respected him uh and more than that he established
56:55
his own authority in understanding interpreting and teaching including training people on how to
57:05
uh interpret these texts and how to explain them uh for for many many years uh and therefore he
57:13
he kind of established his own school of thought that the state felt threatened and for sometimes
57:24
they they tolerated his existence because they they they thought they needed much larger uh
57:34
influence to uh basically remove someone like my father from the picture uh he was respected even
57:41
by princes by people by you know Scholars that even disagreed with him by Sunni sh by liberals
57:47
and liberals Muslim islamists like all um and uh he was followed by by millions and millions
57:54
of people on all social social media accounts and and I remember there was a time uh like prior to
58:03
King Abdullah even you know King Salman when he tweets the king will pick pick up the phone and
58:09
call my father and ask him to REM like delete it TW it's it's that level of uh influence and uh
58:17
importance that um he made that made him even more of a threat that he he is not somebody that you
58:26
can't Overlook you know um so what Muhammad Salman did is he's basic he he basically took the bat uh
58:35
something something that Kings and princes didn't uh dare to do which is to uh basically say that he
58:46
respects the the religion and Islam and religious establishment but these guys are threatening their
58:53
Village's establishment and therefore I can take care of these guys and only and basically one of
58:59
the charges against him is like going uh against the rules of the senior Scholars I mean the senior
59:05
Scholars never complained why you care you know what I mean um so they they arrested him and they
59:14
tried to sell it to the public like oh yeah he is against uh the the what what is what has been
59:20
established by the state as Islamic ruling like if Muhammad man is the protector of Islam or the guardian like suddenly of uh of Faith or whatever like the like suddenly anyway so uh I think that
59:35
yeah I mean the the the method that he used was familiar to the salafi was was familiar to the
59:46
Muslims in sa Arabia and Muslim Scholars generally and that's why was not disputed as as somebody who
59:55
can has his own own methods so that what made him more even dangerous for the state is that
1:00:02
he understands the methods he respects them uh he has different interpretations different school
1:00:07
of thought different School of thinking uh and at the same time is influential on the ground pushing
1:00:14
for political reforms that I mean basically that these these this package is is something that the
1:00:24
state can fear the most and I think that that was actually the title of a paper that Mal did
1:00:31
on my father and and like why the state Fe the most because of these things she laid them down
1:00:38
about like the methods the ideas uh and the things that um he brought about and I just want to like
1:00:46
in this this question by this idea of his that I remember vividly because I like it so much in 2007
1:00:56
eight when he was asked about like sin and he talked about like the the idea of sin in Islam
1:01:02
when you sin and he said but we sometimes get obsessed over obsessed with a prison sin you
1:01:10
know uh and forget a much more impactful sin which is the collective sin uh which is the
1:01:17
societal sin um and he was asked why what what was that he said it's the societal sin of of
1:01:26
not embarking on reforms of not respecting uh freedoms of people of not bringing Society to
1:01:36
the Future uh of not pushing uh forward uh for a a a stronger uh Society a more respectful Society
1:01:48
something that can you know prove to the world and present to the world uh ideas thoughts uh and can
1:01:58
be can can bring about the the civilization that is missing uh you know uh about us and our society
1:02:06
Abdullah we've seen um uprisings across the Muslim world for the last the Arab world for the last
Concentration of power
1:02:13
15 years or so and um um we saw of course um some successes and of course failures as well but Saudi
1:02:22
Arabia has remained uh fairly immunized to to such disturbances um now of course you know without uh
1:02:31
uh wishing uh anything negative for Saudi Society um you your father uh many of the scholarly class
1:02:41
Muslims want change in Saudi Arabia How likely is that or has Muhammad bin Salman Consolidated
1:02:47
his rule to such an extent that any changes is probably uh implausible now uh because of the
1:02:57
uh the concentration of power well look um in um in 2011 when there was a petition my father
1:03:06
and others pushed for it's called it was titled towards a state of threats and institutions uh the
1:03:15
King Abdullah at that time uh was shaken by it and he delegated um some of the powers to his uh Crown
1:03:24
Prince asking him to form a committee to discuss the ideas of that petition um and then the princes
1:03:32
came together and and then they decided Well it's a good idea to transform into a constitutional
1:03:39
monarchy before this comes to our land I mean the Revolutions of the Arab Springs is is just it was
1:03:45
it was amazing um and it was it was a critical moment only two people used their own powers and
1:03:53
some of them used their would say veto uh vetoed basically the the votes toward transforming the
1:04:02
ction monarchy and that guy that Ved was actually Salman who becomes king now because that would
1:04:08
prevent his way to come into power and he didn't want that to happen uh uh at the time all the
1:04:17
senior princes started to pass away and you know and it became basically a rule of of of of
1:04:25
of senior and very old people and there was a time when they thought well they this this needs
1:04:32
to change it needs to like they need to be a new generation and that's when Muhammad Muhammad B na
1:04:39
to some extent before he was moved from conference uh position came to like like present this idea
1:04:48
of uh basically turning this um horizontal mon like comes from brother to brother to brother
1:04:58
to inherit you know uh the rule or kingship into more a vertical is it a vertical yeah vertical
1:05:08
uh basically monarchy from uh father to son and then grandson um so that's when Muhammad ml man
1:05:18
came but he realized that there are so many senior princes there are so more much more uh experienced
1:05:27
uh princes and this this institutions developed in a way that became what Jamal kashuk used to
1:05:35
call the separation of uh branches of royal family not branches of government um meaning each branch
1:05:44
of the royal family would rule have more power over certain you know branches of government so
1:05:52
defense was by Sultan family interior by the AL Family the you know um the National Guard
1:06:01
by the Abdullah so and and then you get you get the idea so it was it was that so Muhammad come
1:06:07
and basically appended all of that system because he wants an absolute rule an absolute power now
1:06:14
to your question how how is this related to mam having more power less power well if you look at
1:06:22
the surface of all of this you would say well now mam is more powerful than ever and that's
1:06:27
true uh but it's it's more susceptible to C to AB to to sudden changes uh than uh ever uh in Saudi
1:06:41
history because in the past if you wna if you want to make a coup or like make a you like you change
1:06:49
you would go after so many princes you would go after so many institutions you would go after so
1:06:55
branches of government or branches of royal family say uh including the king and all but right now if
1:07:02
you look uh you know in Muhammad bman in one room the whole system will collapse it's it's a it's a
1:07:09
system of Muhammad they basically transformed it from AL Family to not just Al Salman family
1:07:18
but Muhammad Salman's rule not even family it's not even Salman like there are so many brothers
1:07:24
and sister of Salman that and and and Sons and Daughters of Salman that have no power whatsoever
1:07:31
even those who are right now helping Muhammad with everything that he is doing he he he hasn't even
1:07:38
appointed uh debuty or or what they called the the yeah the deputy Crown Prince they he has because
1:07:49
and we don't know even if the King dies tomorrow we're not sure if he's going to appoint one at
1:07:54
any time soon because is waiting for his son to grow up a little bit it seems um so the idea is
1:08:00
like he has he has the absolute power but at the same time it's not it's not old Saudi Arabia where
1:08:11
uh coups and sudden changes and because Muhammad man basically did the job like those who wanted
1:08:20
a coup in sa Arabia would have done what like 80% of what mam did to his uh cousins and Senior SCH
1:08:30
like senior sorry senior bres and institutions and bringing everything under one centralized person
1:08:40
that is Muhammad bman does this make sense it makes a lot of sense yeah um now um um to finish
His father’s future
1:08:47
off this interview I mean I I would like to return back to your your father and um um you know his
1:08:53
his personality where he is at the moment his his condition but also I suppose many westerners uh
1:09:00
would probably dismiss someone like Salan Al AA as a regressive sophist as someone who deserves
1:09:06
to be incarcerated by you know a liberalizing Crown Prince uh Thomas fredman comes to mind who'
1:09:13
probably see um uh uh the uh the incarceration to be quite a positive sign for the future of
1:09:20
of Saudi Arabia um just tell us a little bit about your father and and he is and um his current state
1:09:27
and um and your hopes for for for a future for him yeah absolutely so um yeah whatever Freedom said
1:09:37
it's it's it's funny coming from him um the very aggressive uh backward who um has no problem with
1:09:47
detention and torture as long as uh that that happened to his enemies um and uh somebody who
1:09:56
um basically not just Muhammad bman he applauded and and uh uh you know basically promoted every
1:10:09
prince come to power uh in Saudi Arabia and there is a record for it I'm not making this up by the
1:10:15
way it's uh it's right there um and every time every time uh you know King comes to power uh he
1:10:25
promotes all this agenda of Reform and change and it's like an absolute you know a great moment for
1:10:33
the West to promote and embark on these things and also given his Zionist agenda of course he would
1:10:42
like somebody like Muhammed Salman it's it's a I mean for for for an opportun opportunist um
1:10:51
somebody who thinks that uh uh you know know about the the the Middle East as a lab uh for operations
1:11:01
and it's absolutely it makes a lot of sense to see uh Saudi Arabia among other countries in the
1:11:11
Middle East as you know ways to explore uh and to occupy uh basically the same uh colonization ideas
1:11:25
um the orientalist the old approach even old old very very old orientalist approach not even the
1:11:34
new orientalist or anything uh so um so that's I don't I don't to turn this into to Thomas freedom
1:11:42
but the the idea is um why it's like like some how my father is doing right now and the rest and all
1:11:54
so as he said so he was arrested in September 2017 um and um he himself even uh uh uh proofed
1:12:07
and talked and had so many conversations with so many uh Western Scholars let alone like of course
1:12:13
Muslim Scholars but I mean Western Scholars and I invite people to read about him uh with a people
1:12:19
with with some like not something that I wrote but somebody who did his Peach desertation on
1:12:25
and he's teaching in French uh universities uh our friend Stan leral who wrote awaken in Islam uh his
1:12:35
basic it's a great desertation it's about that movement in 1990s and my father and uh two of his
1:12:41
colleague LED um and how that changed and so many conversations that he had with my father uh or to
1:12:49
the book that Mal Rashid um uh the the professor of uh of history in the London School of Economics
1:13:00
um wrote about also my father uh book titled muted modernists um uh so in the chapter about like a
1:13:12
book that my father wrote about revolutions um questions of revolutions um so that that that was
1:13:21
just to respond to this idea of my what my father thinks um but but but the situation right now
1:13:29
in in in Saudi prison is just awful um he he has been in solitary confinement since day one of his
1:13:36
arrest uh he lost half of his vision and half of his hearing um he has been mistreated tortured um
1:13:45
and the trial is pending and they still uh seeking the death penalty against him on 30 37 and now
1:13:53
it's become 41 charges against him um including corrupting Earth uh disagreeing with the scholars
1:14:03
of of the senior the senior Scholars of the like of the Council of senior scholars in Saudi Arabia
1:14:10
having books their abandon the kingdom uh and and calling to release political prisoners uh and uh
1:14:20
the charges goes on and on it's like it's like funny it's like uh Badge of owner Badge of own owners to be honest um all of these charges um I mean they they haven't even tried to work on it
1:14:34
to make it look awful like like look look awful to to the readers they just put them as is it's
1:14:40
like oh we're going to charge you whatever you do it's like eating doing anything just put it
1:14:46
in there we'll just make up stuff and then arrest you detain you and torture based in this and and
1:14:52
seek the death penalty against you so basically Bally is still there um there are some releases
1:14:58
in the Kingdom uh you may have heard uh tens and some people said even to a thousand uh people were
1:15:08
released in the past few weeks uh as to why we don't know I think it needs a lot more discussion
1:15:16
uh but we happy that that is happening and we happy that uh some of the people released and
1:15:22
on the top of the list of course the great guy uh Dr Muhammad The prominent Economist and activist
1:15:29
um was released two weeks ago three weeks ago um and we hope in uh like other people follow suit
1:15:37
inshah inshah and we pray for your father and we hope that he's released very soon inshallah
1:15:43
tala uh ABD abdah it's really been a fascinating conversation thank you so much for your time today
1:15:50
thank you so much brother please remember remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube
1:15:57
channels and head over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter ja