Ep 178. - Keir Starmer's Secret War on Gaza with Matt Kennard

November 9, 2024 Muhammad Jalal

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There’s an assumption that the West have remained honest brokers in the Gaza genocide, or at least critical friends of Israel. My guest today Matt Kennard argues that contrary to public utterances, the British government, like the Americans are deeply involved in Israel’s merciless bombing of Gaza. They are providing military support, intelligence, diplomatic cover whilst at the same time claiming they want a quick resolution to the slaughter. Matt is an independent journalist and author of three books Irregular Army, Silent coup and The Racket

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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation

0:00

Keir Starmer’s secret war on gazes Keir ordered hundred of them in his first three months there's no justification

0:07

for that kind of secrecy they didn't even allow the question to be asked technically they have been participants in this things have changed now labor different to the stories no that it's not

0:16

different they are the same uh belligerence you go to a protest it's still discussions about a

0:21

ceasefire you say the right things you go out and protest but you don't rock the boat it's interesting the role of the Muslim Community they are generally on the other side of the

0:30

Empire there's an assumption that the West have remained onest brokers in Baza genocide or at

0:40

least critical friends of Israel here in Britain we often hear British foreign secretary David Lamy

0:46

talk of human lives working towards a ceasefire the talk is one of diplomacy and restraint

0:53

however much of this Dum who speak is merely for public consumption my guest today is Matt Kennard

0:59

who argu that contrary to public utterances the British government like the Americans are deeply

1:05

involved in Israel's merciless bombing of Gaza they are providing Military Support intelligence

1:12

diplomatic cover whilst at the same time claiming they want a quick resolution to the slaughter Matt

1:19

is an independent journalist and author of three books irregular Army silent coup and veret mat

1:26

Kennard welcome back to the must thanks for having me again it's good to be here yeah wonderful to have you with us uh so Matt uh this is quite a controversial topic and I suppose we've got to

1:35

tread somewhat carefully maybe we don't but um uh you wrote a a a Twitter thread or an ex- Fred

1:43

uh saying that uh K St is involved in a in a in the silent genocide or involved is colluding in

1:50

the genocide I think was the phrase uh with Israel so let's start from the top um in that thread you

1:57

talk about military assistance and UK are actually quite complicit by providing military uh equipment

Britain’s participation in the Gaza genocide

2:05

but also military assistance to the Israeli regime let's call it a regime um tell us about that I

2:10

mean first of all I think we need to change the language about British involvement in the Gaza genocide we are not complicit with participants and we've been participants from the start U this

2:21

is a tripartite genocide it's us UK Israel and it began basically immediately so after October 7th

2:30

um when the genocide began uh in Earnest um I started looking at flights that were going

2:36

from um the UK base on Cyprus which I'll talk about a bit more later but and I noticed that

2:42

there were daily flights going of military planes military transport planes so they're called c17s

2:48

and a 400s they're huge vehicles that can carry over 100 Personnel weapons um and other military

2:55

equipment and I started asking questions of the ministry of defense and then some MPS started

3:02

asking questions and we were given no information about what those flights were for yeah and then I

3:09

started doing more and more stories and they had to respond and this was a dynamic that developed throughout the whole genocide in that I would find uh information myself which would push

3:18

the government to have to release more but anyway they always said oh well it's medical supplies and moving ministers to Israel and you're sort of thinking how the Dozen why do you need

3:26

dozens of military flights to Israel um military transport flights if you're just transporting a

3:33

few ministers there were only a few ministers that had gone at that point or medical supplies didn't make any sense still doesn't we still don't know really what were on those flights and we have no

3:41

press that's pushing the government to to do that so that that was at the beginning then in December

3:48

the government announced that they were going to start um spy flights over Gaza in support of

3:53

Israel that's the quote from the government um and they began in December and again they didn't say

3:59

where they were going from they didn't say how long they were in the air and they didn't say what they were doing with the intelligence or what uh Departments of the Israeli regime they

4:08

were sharing it with but I again independently found how many flights were going and it was

4:13

often two times a day and these are flights that are going uh in the air for 6 hours over Gaza um

4:20

collecting intelligence the whole time and then sharing it with these radies and we don't know how that's being shared so I did that story as well and then later on in the genocide um

4:30

there was a leak in the New York Times interestingly New York Times it wasn't a UK paper because nothing has been revealed and when I say nothing I mean nothing nothing has

4:38

been revealed about the UK role in this genocide the UK participation by UK newspaper it's bananas

4:44

even for someone like me who expects the UK media to effectively work for the government which they do 99% of the time I've been shocked that there's been no interest but anyway a leak

4:54

in the New York Times uh this summer showed that actually also at the beginning of the genocide

5:00

the UK deployed a spy a spy team inside Israel to help the Israelis with their operation in Gaza

5:07

uh an Israeli official leaked that to the New York Times and the Israeli official said that the British spies and the British intelligence who were uh that was being provided gave them

5:16

value added and they said they added that the intelligence uh is giving them uh is given to them

5:23

in a way oh sorry the intelligence that they're getting they cannot collect on their own that's the quote on top of that you also had the Special Forces so the Special Forces for people who don't

5:33

know are commonly known as the SAS but there's also the S SPS which is the the naval part of it they operate as a completely secret arm of the UK State you canot get any information even even

5:46

more secret than the intelligence establishment which is pretty secret itself but anyway it was leaked to the sun again early in the genocide on October 27th there was a story in the sun where

5:57

it said the SAS is deployed again to Cyprus um for Gaza hostage operations they said they so

6:04

they but that's what they claimed and they always all if the British government is ever pressed they always say it's to do with hostage rescue so they said they deployed to the SAS was deployed we have

6:15

not had a single piece of information about what the SAS have been doing over the past year since

6:21

that article because the following day October 28th the UK military sent out a d notice to every

6:27

media editor saying do not publish any information about the UK special forces in in Gaza what's a do

6:33

notice yes so a doot it's important people should more people should know about this so there's a system that the British establishment and the BR UK military has operated for decades called the

6:44

the dooce system whereby there's a committee that's run by the UK Ministry of defense that meets every six months at the ministry of Defense in London top sen or senior intelligence and

6:54

military officials meet with a small collection of journalists and they basically decide what they can and can't publish in the newspapers another function of this committee is that they send

7:04

out what they call advisories where they set uh if certain information comes out or potentially

7:10

could come out they send out an advisory to editors saying please don't publish that information now they say it's voluntary but it's it's not voluntary because there are enforcement

7:19

mechanisms they also say don't publicize these D notices so that there's often well there's must be

7:24

a lot of den notices that we never know about the only reason we know about that do notice that was sent out about gar and the SAS on October 28th is because the Socialist worker party newspaper which

7:36

is a weekly newspaper read by not many people but they received the D notice and they exposed it

7:42

they're the only newspaper that exposed it that's the only reason we know and as I say the Jour the

7:47

editors and the journalists have all acceded to that request from the ministry of Defense not to publish any more information now this is really important because you're talking about a country

The secrecy around the intelligence

7:57

that has been investigated by the world Court for genocide uh and has been taken over by South Africa who's now been joined by a bunch of other countries is also the the ICC Chief prosecuted

8:07

Karim Khan is seeking arrest warrants for the Israeli Prime Minister and his defense minister yoab Gallant so this is there is the legal process is in trained to to to uh to prosecute these the

8:21

this country and these ministers for their role in the genocide if the SAS has been on

8:26

the ground in Gaza which might have happened we don't know again um then that makes those people

8:32

complicit or and participants in potentially a a genocide case and and the ICC case so it's very

8:40

very important we don't know my work on the SAS and the special forces would uh previously would

8:47

indicate to me that they probably aren't on the ground in Gaza and probably haven't been

8:53

but they have an advisory role with the Israeli military this is what we often do around world we send uh Special Forces advisor and they confer on different operations in the case of Israel their

9:03

operation the ground Invasion probably in Gaza but again participation it's not complicity so

9:09

we need to know that so there's a whole penopoly of different uh elements uh that the British have

9:16

done from the start to support and participate in the genocide um we don't know uh half of it

9:24

that's also important to say because as you said the Tweet thread that you mentioned at the start was based on recent parliamentary questions asked by a variety of MPS and Lords about the specifics

9:36

of UK support and nearly all of them were rejected so these are just simple things for example one

9:42

one one Lord from the liberal Democrat lord said um ask the ministry of Defense can you tell me if

9:50

Britain is providing intelligence to Israel for the purposes of military targeting so that should

9:57

be answered with just a straight note they said we can't answer that so we don't know and likely they

10:03

are so and and the other thing is they're collect the UK role is important to to uh emphasize is

10:11

basically um an intelligence and Logistics role the AR side of things which is where most of the

10:18

media focuses when there is a focus is not the main part of UK support and participation in the

10:23

genocide because if you look at a breakdown of where Israel gets its weapons it's like 60% us 30% Germany and 10% with all the other countries Britain's not a big player but where we lead is

Britain leads in giving intelligence to Israel

10:35

providing intelligence we're the country sending spy flights over Gaza twice a day for six hours

10:41

in the year we're the we're the country giving that intelligence to Israel we're the go we're the government allowing our base on Cyprus to become the international hub for uh supporting

10:52

uh the Israel genocide with weapons uh Personnel spies whatever it is uh ARF Criterion Cyprus uh

11:00

has become uh well and became early on in the genocide the logistics Hub but we should talk

11:05

about that more more extensively a bit later on so there needs to be um pressure on the government to

11:13

reveal the specifics of of our participation we know it's happening and we know we've scratched

11:20

the surface but we need to know the specifics and we need the media to really get on board with with

11:25

with that with that job basically so we've got a a variety of means by which you you claim or you

11:32

suggest that the British government are helping uh the Israelis so we've got reconnaissance missions

11:38

uh flying possibly over or certainly over Gaza we've got special forces that are potentially advising or even training uh isra troops and Advising them on on tactics and strategy um we've

11:50

got planes leaving Cyprus RAF Cyprus on a very regular basis what's on those planes we have no

11:57

idea but those planes and these are pretty heavy duty ples that are that are landing in in Israel

12:03

so it does seem like there's some complicity that there so just picking up on that last point you

12:08

mentioned how do we apply pressure and what type of information are you clearly looking for like

How do we apply pressure on the Labour government?

12:15

what is it that you're trying to substantiate yeah well in terms of pressure why I think is important because you saw recently that the labor government suspended 30 arms licenses

12:24

to Israel which comprised 8% of the total and we don't actually know what those licenses were for

12:29

importantly they also didn't include parts for the F35 plane which has been used to Pummel Gaza so it was window dressing but the labor government only did that because they came

12:39

under pressure because everyone's saying stop arms to Israel stop arms to Israel we need that kind of pressure about the intelligence support and the logistics support that's what we need

12:49

whether it being a media or activist activists need to change I believe their emphasis onto uh

12:55

different elements of the participation and part of the reason that's not happening is because we have so little information right um we should also get the pressure the international

13:04

legal institutions like the ICC and the icj to request information from the British government

13:10

because recently um the British government came under pressure to say whether they'd share that

13:16

reconnaissance information with the ICC for their investigation and they didn't say for a long time

13:21

and they recently said we will share it with the ICC yeah um but they and they also need to

13:27

be um interroga about their excuses because they always say like I said with the SAS for hostage

13:33

rescue it's exactly the same with the Spy flights they say this is all to do with hostage rescue and you're sort of like that can't be true because even when those spy flights started

13:42

in December 2023 we had two hostages British Nationals in Gaza one of them uh nadab Powell

13:51

was eventually killed likely by Israel itself so now we have one and you're talking about over

13:59

a thousand hours of footage that's been collected over Gaza so and probably it doesn't explain uh uh

14:05

hostage rescue does not explain the quantity and and the time in the year and the amount of footage we've got so we need some transparency over that and also the interesting thing is there was a spy

14:16

plane British spy plane in the air over Gaza just before the um uh the Israelis assassinated three

14:24

British Aid workers World Central Kitchen we uh we requested that information from the British M

14:31

Ministry of Defense they refused to give it and then we interviewed um uh the families of the

14:38

of the of those Aid workers that were killed and they all said we demand the UK government gives

14:43

us that information there's no justification for that kind of secrecy there's no justification at all we also need to know where it's going that's a very important point because they say well it's

14:52

all it's only shared with departments that uh have a role in hostage rescue but the I think

14:58

that's semantic Play Because essentially how the Israelis present their their genocide in Gaza

15:04

is a hostage rescue operation yeah so you could basically uh include anything in under the rubric

15:10

of Hostage rescue so all this is is stuff that needs to come out and will come out eventually

15:17

but we need it now and I think that we need to put pressure on our journalists to just cover this stuff just very very basic as I said the only information we got about the spy team inside

15:27

Israel that's deployed there is from The New York Times there's nothing there's been nothing in the guardian nothing in the telegraph nothing in the times about this spite te so we need some

15:36

transparency about we also need transparency about what's happening in Cyprus because Cyprus has been

We need transparency around Cyprus

15:44

Central to uh the the the genocide in Gaza and the the international buildup of forces and weapons to

15:53

Center Israel uh I should give some background on on the British bases there because it's

15:59

it's a window into how the uh genocide has been uh uh enabled but it's also a window into how

16:05

British power works and how The Empire never died after the end of the second world war which is a common myth that's put out there so Cyprus was a British colony until 1960 when it achieved

16:17

Independence and on Independence the British retained 3% of Cyprus the land mass of Cyprus

16:24

and turned it was in two main areas and turned the Western area which is called AC Syria into a huge

16:30

RAF Air Base which still exists uh in the East they there's a installation called theia which

16:36

is a huge intelligence station now early on as I said I saw these flights going from AC ARF aceri

16:43

to to Israel and then it came out subsequently that it wasn't just uh British flights going 40

16:51

US transport flights went from aceri to Israel in the first month after the genocide and that

16:58

was revealed in harats and hatarat actually said that rfer is the international hub for supporting

17:04

Israel early on also other special forces like German Danish will also deployed there the SAS

17:09

were deployed there um and part of the the beauty for the British uh uh military and the imperialist

17:18

class is that it's completely secret RF criter you can't even send a Freedom of Information at

17:24

request here about what happens there right number one number two it's Al a US facility secretly so

17:33

um I actually went to ARF crer two years ago and did a series of stories about um the um uh uh the

17:41

governance model there and basically it's run as a military dictatorship it's all power resides in what's called an administrator who's appointed by the ministry of Defense in London how big is this

17:49

place I it's so it's three huge it's huge it's not just a base either that's the thing people don't understand when he's all about 3% of the island so there's bases on it yeah but a lot of

17:58

it is there's houses on it and and different stuff like that and interestingly it's not signposted in

18:03

any way it's not there's no British flags right partly because the British don't want to attract

18:09

the a that there is for the occupation in the north because turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 and have never left and still occupied Northern Cyprus you walk onto or you drive onto

18:19

at crer or deelia and you you there's no way of knowing you just crossed the border and in fact I interviewed people when I went there and was saying to people tourists uh British tourists

18:28

even us and and curus saying do you know you on UK land here and they say no we didn't know that

18:34

they're on because there's beaches there's Lakes there's everything so it's hugely secret and the

18:40

US have been there for 50 years and the story I did one of the series of stories I did was that I revealed the extent of the UK presence us presence which had never been revealed so there's 120 us

18:52

Airmen permanently stationed on that criter um and again like the British we can't get

18:58

the information about the Brit what the British do is even more secret with the US role any question you put to the ministry of Defense either of either freedom information act or parliamentary

19:07

questions or other transparency mechanisms is met with a blanket answer we don't comment on allies

19:13

movements or activities on our basis so we have no idea the extent of the US role uh um supporting

19:21

the genocide in Gaza from at crer although again a series of stories I've done is about us secret

19:27

US Special Forces fights which have been five for criteria I revealed that yeah um and that's the only work that's been done on it um so it it and I think the secrecy is by Design because

19:37

it's much easier to um uh support and participate in a criminal War a genocide if you don't have to

19:47

reveal any information and I think ministers along the way have been scared by um by the fact that we

19:54

the work we were doing and are doing and also scared by the fact that knew once these legal

20:00

processes came into to to train that they could themselves be prosecuted so at one stage there was

20:07

an there's an amazing or there was an amazing MP called Kenny mccal who is part of the Alba party

20:13

which is a splinter Scottish nationalist party from the SNP and he was he he did all the the main

20:20

work in Parliament trying to priz information from the British government about what our our role was

20:26

particularly on that criteria at one point and we wrote a story about this that be classified at one point he asked a question about RF criteria he was given an answer from the the people who who table

20:36

the questions to the Departments and said sorry we've just been told by the ministry of defense that there's a block on any questions about RF criteria even in Parliament even in Parliament

20:44

so and usually when they block want to block it they can just answer it and say we don't comment because it's National Security or some excuse yeah they didn't even allow the question to be asked so

20:55

that's how much they know that it's they they could be complicit in in a in a in a potential

21:02

legal case so I think there's real fear within the British government because it's so obvious you know this already something hid it yeah at any time early on in fact days after October 7th

21:11

yab Galant said we're withdrawing all um water and electricity from 2.3 million people that's

21:17

Collective punishment it's it's a war crime under the Geneva conventions and the British have been

21:23

part of that so I think there is real fear that um uh that will get exposed them that they could

21:29

face legal consequences and they should that's the other thing the ministers responsible the British ministers should all face Justice at the he and I'm not just saying that to to sound uh uh some

21:40

kind of uh rallying cry just they legally and technically they have been participants in this

21:48

uh and I'm talking about the previous government under sunak Grant shaps as defense secretary rishy

21:53

sunat K starma David Lamy John Healey all of them have been part of it um and the other the other

21:59

side of it as well is there's been huge secrecy about the Israeli military planes that have been Landing in the UK early story I did basically Kenny mccal asked the question how many military

22:09

planes have landed in the UK since October 7th and they refused to answer and I independently

22:15

verified that uh six had landed at four different locations in the UK right um and then subsequent

22:23

to that the the UK military as I said this is the same dynamic they have to react so they then they admitted that nine had had landed by April um huge military transport planes in the UK one at Glasgow

22:35

preswick Airport the story that I did on Glasgow uh which included Glasgow pres airport eventually

22:41

spurred the S&P government under um under its leader Hamza YF uh to to resend access to for

22:49

the Israeli military to Glasgow presic Airport um which again goes to again shows if the media

22:55

was doing its job and really revealing complicity and partic IP ation of the UK government things would change quite fast uh so that's why I think they're complicit um but again so we and and the

23:06

other thing is again they say we asked and Kenny asked what was on those planes what were on those

23:12

Israeli planes uh that went on to the United States and they they refused to answer they so

23:17

we don't we don't comment on on allies movements or activities on our basis so it's a whole secret

23:23

world that we are not allow allowed to know about and the bar for secrecy is much higher for foreign

23:28

militaries which is bananas like we should have transparency about what our own military is doing

23:33

on our basis cuz we pay for it it's taxpayer funded but we should have more transparency

23:39

about what foreign militaries are doing because that's that's not our government that has that is doing those operations so so there's a whole world that needs to be revealed and should be

23:50

revealed there's also Israeli military training being trained in the UK throughout the genocide

23:56

so in February uh the ministry of Defense admitted that six Israeli uh uh occupation forces soldiers

24:05

were being trained in uh in the UK um then they said we can't give you any details about what that

24:11

training is which is amazing and again completely unjustifiable but they don't have to justify it

24:18

because no media ever follows up Declassified UK has done all the work on the UK role and

Mainstream media’s complicity

24:25

has caused a absolute storm in Cyprus particularly but yet zero has happened here with the mainstream

24:31

media and just on the Cyprus issue so the stories I was doing early on and into the summer um caused

24:40

huge demonstrations in Cyprus because there's a big Pro Palestinian movement in Cyprus which I wasn't aware of before is that so yeah yeah it's it's there's a there's a real there's hundreds of

24:48

thousands of people that are on the side of the Palestinians it's it's 40 minute flight time from Gaza so it's Cypress is is is very very uh close to the to the Middle East um and then so the so

25:03

that so there started being regular protests at Raf ceria was cypriate saying get out we don't

25:08

want this British base that's that's supporting the genocide and facilitating the genocide then there was a demonstration in liol which is the second city of Cyprus which is just next the RF

25:18

criteria there was one recently actually and then the CPR president in the South or of Cyprus had to

25:25

make a comment he was asked about in the press conference denied it the president of Northern Cyprus was asked about it had to make a comment the British High Commission in nicasia the capital

25:34

had to make a comment then the the UK official in Northern Cyprus had to give a newspaper interview

25:40

so all this is happening meanwhile there's not a single word appears in the mainstream media

25:45

here and that even surprised me because I thought that if you're talking about presidents they can

25:52

ignore our stories they can ignore UK complicity because they do that all the time but when you got

25:57

presidents having to answer for it and commenting on UK role and ambassadors and whatnot commenting

26:03

you would think that there would have to be some reaction but none and this has all gone completely below the radar because of this so this is why I believe the journalists in the mainstream

26:13

The Establishment journalists that refuse to cover it they're complicit the journalists that have acceded to a uh D notice which is apparently voluntary they not have to they complicit because

26:24

they have allowed this to continue because if they did their job if they revealed UK complicity

26:30

pressure will build from the general population for the government to stop that complicity to stop

26:35

that participation so the fact they're not doing it makes them complicit in the crime I mean Isis is V sort of uh Silence of the of the media very unique to Britain I mean for example we know that

26:47

the Americans probably do far much more uh in in helping and aiding this genocide do we see more

26:54

Envy American Press about American complicity or American quesence with Israel I yeah I think

27:01

we do and that's it's interesting and interesting not just on the media side on the government side if you look at since the genocide started there has been a steady stream of both resignations by

27:12

Biden Administration officials and whistleblowers who have revealed what's going we have had zero in fact we did have zero until recently someone called Mark Smith resigned from the foreign office

27:22

that was the first resignation after a year of participation in the genocide which is amazing

27:28

that and and it that does make us different to the United States in terms of whistleblowers we haven't had a single whistleblower because as I say usually in this kind when you're talking about

27:37

crimes of this order like the genocide in Gaza you'd expect some people on the inside to have some kind of moral uh Consciousness that would make them even anonymously leak some information

27:48

as I say we're looking for more information zero I think that's to do with the UK establishments

27:56

um uh history really and the fact that they uh we have in this country a deference to power that's bred in private schools like Harrow Eaton um which is gives gives our establishment

28:08

uh some uh a difference to power which is kind of unique and also goes back to the Empire you

28:14

know all these institutions bred the the the class of people that managed the Empire so and

28:21

you know we've the throughout the history of the British Empire they did not think twice about uh

28:27

committing genocide against uh uncivil what they called uncivilized uh uh sex groups of people so

28:34

yeah I think it is different to the United States and then obviously as I mentioned the New York Times that article about the British spy Squad appeared there you've had a steady

28:41

stream of Investigations or of UK complicity of us complicity and participation in the genocide

28:49

in the US that you haven't seen here um and part of it might be State repression because part of it

28:56

might be the den notices cuz as I said there was a d notice about the SAS there might have been other

29:01

D notices sent out we don't know about the Spy Squad could be that they said you can't comment on

29:06

you can't mention a spy Squad yeah um and actually again the difference with the United States most

29:12

American journalists find it outrageous that the D notice committee even exists because it's what

29:19

kind of uh self-respecting journalist meets with the military and intelligence Services is meant to

29:25

cover to decide what they can and can't print like it happens in the US but they meet behind closed doors and they're embarrassed about it here it's advertised that the dentice committee exists and

29:35

the advisories themselves aren't sent aren't advertised but they they come out eventually there was another Den notice just um a side part of this there was another D notice sent out soon

29:45

after Edward snowden's leaks in 2013 which many papers abided by and uh they tried to stop the

29:51

guardian publishing which the guardian bravely said no which was the right thing to do but

29:56

Edward snowden's leaks interestingly have a role in this as well because the only information we've got about the US intelligence um role uh in Cyprus is from those leaks and it shows that the National

30:09

Security Agency which is tightly uh uh Allied to the Israeli intelligence Community uh has

30:17

uh operates the huge UK UK intelligence station in the kellia in the east of Cyprus it's a huge

30:23

uh uh us intelligence facility interestingly in one of the Snowden lease it showed that the Brit

30:29

that the the British told us P spies that were in the kellia that they had to dress like tourists

30:36

because they hadn't told this they didn't want the ciate government to know that the the Americans were were working there so so yeah I don't know why we're so uniquely bad now yeah but Gaza has

30:48

exposed the media for what it is which is that it's an armor of the state and I I usually say

30:54

995 99% of the time with Gaza it's been 100 % of the time which is crazy um and that needs to

31:02

change and hopefully uh uh it will change in the as this goes on and and hopefully in the absence

31:10

of journalists doing a job the legal institutions which are investigating will demand these answers because of course in in a legal process you also have Discovery so the government will

31:19

have to reveal stuff that they they refuse to give to journalists and I think that we need to put pressure on the icj and the ICC to start doing that to the British government because

31:30

they can Palm away journalists but they can't Palm away those legal institutions as easily I mean that's really really um um interesting and actually quite harrowing to hear what's what's

31:39

happening here now tonally at least you've called it I think was you know K the secret war on gazes

31:47

but you know tonally it seems like there has been a shift since July and since the election of K stver and um you know there was movement on on and there was movement on on you know tonally

31:59

at least more discussions about ceasefires and one David lamb he always talks about ceasefires and we're trying to get to come to a diplomatic uh resolution to the crisis um from your from

32:10

where you're standing has there been a sh where fits the uh the ating of the conservatives and

Has the Labour government really shifted?

32:19

the new labor governments well there has been a tonal shift yes on certain things also the arms licenses but I think that it's just power uh politics it's it's not anything uh uh real which

32:31

is shown by the fact that the Spy flights that I talked about Kama uh ordered hundred of them in

32:39

his first three months They carried on at the same frequency there wasn't and that obvious obviously that makes that's a much more important part of our role uh than any kind of arms or anything and

32:47

that continued secretly right the arms why I say it's window dressing is because as I mentioned

32:54

the F35 Britain 15% % of the F35 fighter jet is uh which is mainly produced by ly Martin in the

33:02

US is produced in the UK and that wasn't included in those arm suspensions which actually could have

33:12

if if they suspended that and Clos the UK part of that that could have had a actually detrimental

33:17

impact on the ability of the Israeli military to commit its genocide which is what they should be doing you know uh so uh and and the other thing is there was a story recently by John makoy the

33:28

journalist that uh two uh shipments of parts for the F35 had gone from within the UK uh secretly

33:37

to Israel so we're actually using British bases to send that equipment to Israel uh again hasn't been

33:44

covered At All by any uh mainstream media which is crazy uh and barely any politician has spoken

33:51

about itara sulana was talking about the other day but that was the only one yeah so yes it and

33:57

part of it is tally they're having to respond to the population uh uh being against their policy

34:04

so uh so it's understood why they're doing it but if you look underneath the sort of PR you

34:10

see that there's no there's no change in in in participation and the complicity and the other

34:17

side of this is not just their participation in the genocide and the secrecy around it the part of it also is a new war on journalists and activists who are trying to disrupt RS UK participation

34:30

which and this is very important and has picked up since K St became prime minister just the other day ASA win Stanley who's a very uh um respected Journal investigative journalist who's done a

34:40

lot of work on the role of the Israel Lobby in Britain and also the situation in Gaza he had

34:46

his house raided at 500 a.m. by counterterrorism police who stole all his devices uh and he wasn't

34:54

even charged with the crime or arrested which sounds like something that happened Happ in a dictatorship but that happened in Britain in starman's Britain the week the month before

35:02

Sarah Wilkinson another independent journalist the same thing happened to her yeah although this time she was bundled into a van and charged under the terrorism act a week before Richard medhurst

35:12

another independent journalist detained at Heath Road for 23 hours in solitary confinement so this

35:19

is uh so obviously if they were serious about stopping their participation or complicity they

35:25

wouldn't be cracking down in this way on people who are exposing that complicity and and I think the two Dynamics are linked they want to keep it secret because they know that uh what they're

35:36

supporting is uh one of the worst crimes of this or any era and number two that they could be legally uh uh complicit so I think we need to be very very Vigilant about giving them too much uh

35:49

credit for any of this stuff especially with the 30 weapons licenses the way they presented that was was was very very different to the reality and I think that it may for someone like or people

36:01

like ourselves who do the research and look into it you can see that that but I think that that kind of just peacee little uh uh throwaway that they gave actually convinced a lot of well-meaning

36:12

people okay well at least they've done something things have changed now Labor's different to the stories no that it's not different they are the same uh belligerent in this conflict uh

36:21

and they should be seen as such and unless we put keep the pressure on and understand that that was

36:27

all window dressing then they they won't have to do more which is what we need them to do in fact we need to them to stop participating in always specifically we need to full arms embargo which

36:38

was done by Margaret Thatcher funny enough against Israel in 1982 when she invaded Lebanon full arms

36:43

embargo you need to bring that spy team home from Israel all those guys you need to bring the SAS home you need to ground the RAF spy flights you need to stop all military transport flights that

36:54

are going to Israel uh there were 60 by April that on simple things like that all that needs

37:00

to stop and until that stops our focus should be on pushing for for each of those elements to

37:06

stop rather than saying oh well now they've given us they they've done this or that then uh that's fine we can we can go stay indoors we don't have to go out and protest or we don't need to reveal

37:15

what's going on they they are banking on that and they are using this peac Mill uh policies to to to

37:21

kind of stop people uh the outrage that there is in the population and also now they're having to use and going back to the domestic repression part of the reason the UK state and starma government

Labour has lost control of the narrative

37:32

is camping down so hard is because they have lost control of the narrative on Gaza and Israel

37:40

I think Zionism is dying as a as an ideology like it's one of the most heavily resourced

37:46

PR campaigns ever has been put into the Zionist project you know to present it as a progressive Force for for uh uh against uh uh reaction when it's the opposite when it's a colonialist

37:57

supremacist ideology and has been from the start people see that now in a way they didn't before

38:03

really there's they people's eyes have been opened and the majority of the population want to ceasefire a majority of the population want an arms embargo and in that context when

38:13

the population is at odds with the ruling class which doesn't want to do either of those things for various reasons partly because of the Israel lobby but when you had that um uh that that breach

38:23

between the population ruling class you have to then revert to the law as a way to dis the population and that also goes with prescription if you look what they did with um hez buah and

38:36

and Hamas um now whatever you think of hez buah and Hamas it's in a free Society you should be

38:42

allowed to say what you want about any group um as long as you're not inciting violence you can

38:49

talk about I always use the example of uh Vietnam uh it's like the equivalent of Outlaw saying it's

38:56

make it illegal can go to prison for 14 years for saying you support the Viet Kong there were huge amounts of people during the Vietnam war in America saying they supported the Viet Kong

39:03

against the American imperialist Invasion now people are getting arrested and put and charged

39:10

based on just saying they support the resistance right um and that and this is again goes back to

39:16

what I'm saying this is the breach they know they need the law and in fact the the prescription of Hezbollah in fall in 2019 was actually the work of the Israel Lobby it's not well known about

39:26

but uh the militant parts of hisbah had been had been uh prescribed earlier on but in 2019

39:33

it was prescribed in total and Stuart poac who's one of the maybe the doen of the Israel Lobby he

39:39

was interviewed and said he was being interviewed about the potential prescription of the Iranian

39:45

irgc which is like a Obsession of the Israel Lobby now they want to get the British government to prescribe that and he was asked about that and he said well what we need to do is pure lobbying

39:55

that's the quote and then he was said with his it took us ages the us being the Israel Lobby

40:01

effectively so so and and and it but I don't think it's going to work because truth is gushing out

40:09

now and they can't stop it we got social media we got people who have who are equipped of a bravery

40:15

they previously didn't have because of what what they've been watching over the past years yeah and it's a deluge uh and they can use the law but they can't put thousands of us in prison they can't so

40:26

uh I think we've reached that momentum now where that they are basically try this is a sinking ship

40:32

and they're having to like put little plasters on all the bits but in the long term zionism's dying

40:37

uh people have seen too much and I think that's a that's that's a great thing because it's it's

40:43

taken too long 76 years of brutal occupation of massacres of colonialism is too long for people

40:51

to wake up to the reality of it we shouldn't have taken the genocide in Gaza and also the cost has been way too high for this real ization um you know 40 well 40,000 dead has been that that

41:04

figure has been there for months now and and lanet has said it's probably closer to 200,000

41:10

so um so there is hope amidst the horror I think in the long term because there has been a a shift

41:19

in human consciousness and specifically about Zionism and and our previous conversation about

41:24

the US role in the world yeah but uh but I think we're going to see increasing amount of repression

41:29

in the interim you know because they're C trying to stem the the T they're trying to um stop this

41:36

kind of uh tidal wave of Awakening so let's talk about those leaders because of course in a functioning democracy you would have the media and you would have parliamentarians that would be

41:45

holding the government account but it seems to me and very few journalists are doing that and very

41:51

few parliamentarians are doing that right you know we have a few exceptions but generally speaking a

41:56

collusion in with the British government or hiding or silent about what's happening in Gaza uh We've

42:03

then got the population and within the population we've got the activist base and it just seems to me that at the moment maybe the activist B base has lost its way I mean you know you go to a

42:14

protest it's still discussions about a ceasefire and of course you know that's all well and fine

42:20

but that doesn't put pressure on the government in the in the way you're suggesting where you're

42:25

specifying how the government is colluding with the Israelis and you want to focus on that spe

42:31

on on those uh way to collusion I suppose my my question is how can the activist bace like reset

How can the activist space reset their focus

42:39

itself so that it's ask you know you know you go to a a protest which we all should and you listen

42:45

to a speech and it's still the same speech that was given back in October right yes in a way we

42:50

should be specifying even even what you suggest there in terms of the solusion I haven't actually

42:55

heard that from a parliamentarian Zara sutana has talked about weapons she's probably the best when

43:01

it comes to you know expressing that complicity but I haven't seen that level of specification

43:07

like how do we go from here that's I suppose make yes and it's a very good question and you have to understand that the whole infrastructure that's been bu built up for 40 years yeah even in the

43:16

Pro Palestinian solidarity Community is basically to keep the keep the issue on life support MH you

43:24

say the right things you go out and protest but you don't rock the boat because essentially I

43:30

mean you could come up with theories about why that is it's a controlled opposition well also like there's a whole ecosystem and this doesn't just operate on Palestine this operates on every

43:38

issue with the NGO the Civil Society Community you have funders um you have uh people who are career

43:44

careerists and often the incentives are to just keep the issue on life support yes you produce a

43:51

good report you do a nice protest but essentially you're not your goal isn't really to change the situation on the ground which is what we need now the situation is too critical it was before to be

44:00

honest but but now and I think that Palestine you can be specific about it uh the Palestine

44:06

solidarity movement has been going for 40 years in this country very little success to show for it as you say protest great I've been on a lot of them but it it's not having the desire effect it

44:17

hasn't had the desire effect and then you look at some a group like Palestine action yeah who came onto the scene four years ago and they're having win after win after win they shutting down

44:28

the factories of death being operated by Elbert systems the Israel's largest um weapons company in

44:34

this country um they are having a huge impact with their actions this is a direct action group direct

44:42

action yeah uh and they got 17 political prisoners in UK prisons now um and there's talk they want

44:49

to I mentioned prescription John Woodcock this government adviser on extremism or so so-called

44:56

government advisor he's just a he's a he's backed by the Israel Lobby and weapons companies so he's

45:01

not he's got no he is the extremist rather than being an adviser on how to combat extremism

45:07

but he's argued that palestin be should be prescribed and why is this why why are they

45:12

so scared of palestin action merely because they are having an impact and know the other Palestine

45:18

solidarity groups a lot of them do great work but there's no none of that government cracked down on them because they but basically they're not having an impact and we can't the situation

45:28

is too serious now we're talking about 76 years of this occupation this colonial occupation and

45:35

massacres and now a genocide are T we have to look at the situation soberly and say what is going to

45:42

work to stop this to and palestin action I think have the answers I think they're the only people that have risen to the level that we should all rise to as moral human beings in the face of what

45:51

we're saying shutting down weapons factories the other point of it is it's not just about Palestine

45:57

their activity in this country has civilized Britain how have they done that because every

46:02

single Arms Company now that is thinking about placing their weapons that their factories of death in our country will factor in Palestine action and the fact there might be spinter

46:12

groups that might Target them uh that is a Major civilizing Impact we have been freed part well we

46:19

and in the long term might be freed from these horrific institutions that make money off war

46:25

and make money off genocide and make money off bombing kids so um I think that uh there is some

46:33

trepidation for people to speak about this because you don't want to attack people who are also in

46:39

the pro palestin pro Palestinian solidarity movement and it doesn't have to be an attack I don't see this as an attack I'm saying it's a critique and understanding that uh it hasn't

46:49

worked it hasn't worked even the protests haven't worked essentially the only people that have had tangible gains are palestin Nation another part of this is the Palestinian Authority I'm sorry to

46:59

say this is an institution that came out of hoslo peace process um and ostensibly is a Palestinian

47:08

Pro Palestinian institution but effectively Works often as a subcontractor for the occupation forces

47:15

and was designed like that and to go back to the British involvement in the genocide in Gaza the UK

47:21

has seven uh senior military personnel permanently deployed in rala training the security forces of

47:31

the PA now do you think as I've told you the UK are participating in the genocide of the Palestinians do you think those UK uh soldiers are there to train the PA forces because they

47:42

want uh uh they want to end the occupation no they're there because they want they're part of the Imperial tapestry which is enforcing the occupation and they want to create a force which

47:51

can dampen down on any real descent which might upset the continued occupation so we need to be

47:56

clear about what the PA's role is in all this and again it's hard to Divine often because yes they say the right things about like the genocide and they say the right thing about the occupation but

48:06

underneath the rhetoric what are they actually doing abas has previously said security Co

48:12

cooperation with Israel is quote unquote sacred and you see them cracking down on descent in the

48:18

West Bank against the occupation and and and the genocide at different points so we need and and

48:25

this is all a process of normal ation as well and everyone's involved even Medical Aid for Palestinians and again I don't want to criticize them because they do a lot of great work but I

48:34

was looking into what they do and they take um uh MPS to uh to Israel and and the West Bank and what

48:43

do they do they they they they arrange meetings for them with the Israeli foreign Ministry yes

48:48

they arrang meetings for them and then the PA and maybe some uh local communities and stuff

48:53

but the point is it's all about normalization this process is all about making it okay to uh

49:00

you're talking about a a criminal regime which is occupying and massacring the indigenous population

49:08

and medical AIS you shouldn't be arranging any MPS to meet with it Israelis this whole like one

49:14

side the other side no take them to Palestine for sure but don't don't play into the system

49:21

and and of course for Israel this is vital part of their the continuation of their occupation

49:26

because they want to kick the can down the road they want to normalize the peace process as much

49:31

as possible while they at the same time what they do is they create what they call facts on the ground and they've been doing this for decades you you you you have all these lovely coexistence

49:40

meetings you have all these uh uh MPS coming and meet meeting with an Israeli meeting with

49:45

a Palestinian meanwhile You're Building settlement after settlement after settlement which makes the potential Palestinian State you say you support impossible to have so I think the whole ecosystem

49:56

the whole infrastructure is rotten um and actually has been exposed more than ever because of palese

50:05

action and actually if you talk to some people within the ecosystem that I've described they don't like Palestine action which does not make any sense yeah but it does make sense if you

50:14

realize they've exposed them they've exposed that they are by playing within the system and playing

50:20

by the rules that they were given essentially by the Israelis and allies like the UK and US

50:25

they've been complicit in the continuation of it and we now need a break we need a rupture with

50:32

that whole system and we need to make a clear ride analysis of how do we stop the occupation and how

50:38

do we stop the genocide and how do we uh uh expose all the different elements that are complicit in

50:45

it including our political class and the way to do that is not by playing by their rules I mean there has been a I don't know if we can call it a fatigue but certainly um what you described

50:55

there of an ecosystem that seems to not be working for protests and yeah the sort of daily petitions

51:01

and uh it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere because it's not very targeted not very focused

51:07

uh but there has been a fatigue in the general population like how do we release ourselves

51:12

from this fatigue I mean I'm I'm Keen to to get your views on the student movement in particular because of course the encampment movement did get somewhere yeah in the last uh period in summer but

51:23

it seems that that's died down as up and I speak to University students and I get impression that you know that that fatigue has set in even in that Community which I which ideally needs to

51:33

be quite active like how do we restart so you're calling for a like almost a a recalibration yeah

51:41

of how the Palestinian movement should function like how do we how do we do that yeah well it's a

How do we recalibrate the Palestinian movement

51:47

good question I think that we basically just need this a a longer sort of process than than we have

51:54

now and also needs to be I I don't think I'm best place to even come up with any ideas but I think

52:00

we need to understand that um uh protesting by itself and on the same themes is not working and

52:11

has not worked and the Israelis are fine with it so we need to understand what does work and

52:17

direct action is what I believe works and also um you mentioned fatigue I worry about this as well

52:27

because I don't as I said I don't think the world's ever been this awake to Zionism to

52:32

America but also to many many issues because it's like dominoes people are waking up to all sorts of

52:37

lies that they've been told for years but how do we make sure that doesn't all just evaporate once

52:44

this genocide is over which it will be eventually and I think um there's no uh Silver Bullet for

52:50

that but for me it's just that the activism needs to uh uh continue and education and uh physical uh

52:59

uh direct action and encampments encampments are great because they are places you can go to and

53:05

they're often at places that have symbolism like there's one that's just opened at the US Embassy

53:11

yeah I didn't know about this again so that goes under the radar because the media don't cover it I went there the other day yeah and amazing group of activists and they're happening all around the

53:20

country so we need to maintain that momentum um but again this is like a this is a question as

53:27

old as time isn't it how do you how do you affect political change um and and how do you keep how do

53:33

you sustain the energy that these kind of moments of uh Awakening create um I do think that it's a

53:40

bit different with Gaza because it's been so long and because it's been so exposed yeah I don't think it can go back to how it was before I mean I think people this is another thing I've been

53:51

thinking recently is like we need to all accept that we are different now we're changed yes we are changed which is not a bad thing right and it's inevitable you can't see that and not be changed

54:01

the question now is how have we changed and how can we harness that to help free Palestine can I

54:08

have enough of us change I mean I hate to say this and it's sort of you know maybe you've changed

Have people moved on from Gaza?

54:13

maybe I've changed you know we we still feel it very strongly but the world moves on we live in

54:20

a capitalist Society where you know our lives take over very quickly and you get that impression that

54:29

um you know maybe not I'm not even saying it in a sort of malicious way but you get the impression that people have moved on it's no longer a a major concern in their lives yeah but I don't even

54:39

mean like uh they're concerned with this issue I changed on a fundamental level just of our hum our

54:46

Humanity I feel different now uh and I think and to go to your question of how many people I think

54:52

a lot of people or people who have been involved but that's enough we're talking about millions of people who have been involed D in watching this uh have changed in ways I don't really understand yet

55:04

yeah but uh there's two so I feel like it changed personally but also changed my tolerance for our

55:14

ruling class has got much uh lower like because of the seriousness of the crime that they've been

55:22

part of and defended yes like I I have not I I I can't look at these people now without feeling

55:28

disgusted because they uh and also I can't look at them and not think you're all Psychopaths because

55:35

anyone who's seen and this is not a Muslim or Jewish issue this is a human issue anyone who

55:43

has seen what we've seen over the past year yes uh and actually is is part of a system or is an

55:52

actor in the system that's allowing it to happen and permitting it to happen and facilitating it you have to be a psychopath surely yeah there's no other explanation you can't you can't look at it

56:01

and not and not want to do and not want to stop it if you're not a psychopath so that has been

56:07

a revelation to me but I think that because this is a a definite like physical well psychological

56:15

change it's not going to go back as a per on a personal level I don't think people are going to change back to how they were before but the question is how will we changed I don't really

56:24

know like I the to lower tolerance yeah that's that's the simple part of it but there's other

56:29

ways but part of it is also optimistic because there is a strength uh that you get when you when

56:37

you become part of a struggle that you know is just and you know is uh uh on the side of

56:43

the oppressed and uh I mean Israel Palestine and the genocide of lives is super simple you know I

56:50

support people who have been ethnically cleansed I support people who have been massacred by

56:56

a colonial power simple so there's no confusion for me there but um and and there's also feelings

57:03

of uh uh love and comradeship that have that have exploded in the last year you know amongst po pra

57:12

Community people feel a lot closer to their fellow human beings yeah uh on on our side but that that

57:18

again I don't think is going to go away that's a that's an we've explored parts of our personality we've explored parts of our Humanity that we didn't even know existed before at least I

57:26

personally have um and so so basically I think the question now is to make an analysis of how

57:33

what all these changes are and work out how do we harness it to free Palestine because Palestine is

57:39

the issue of our time yes and we're not even near the end of what's going to H going to happen you know like Israel is a rogue Lawless state that is now bombing uh and killing thousands of people in

57:51

Lebanon they want Iran ultimately to fall um and I'm sure they'll do that as part of their the

57:59

the this this whole uh uh uh horror show that they're putting on um so yeah I'm I am hopeful

58:08

about the future but as you say as as might be obvious I haven't really had thought about it strategically and I don't think it's my place to be totally honest with you I think it's it's more

58:17

Palestinian place or at least people in the region as well though um but we we follow their lead you

58:23

know like the BDS movement that came that was a Palestinian call and the Palestinians do uh are

58:30

are making uh uh requests from us and we should listen we should say okay what if this evaluate

58:39

and and and and abide by them um one of the ones recently that I've noticed a lot is that

58:45

Palestinians in Gaza a lot of them are saying fot jel Stein yeah they're not saying vote

58:51

Kamala Harris so all these people who say it's going to be much worse for the Palestinians um if Trump gets in which might be true it might not be true uh they're not the ones we should listen

59:01

to what are the Palestinians saying a lot of them in Gaza are saying well we've just had literally

59:06

had the whole uh Homeland destroyed in a year we canot understand how you can vote for the woman

59:13

who did that and she did do it she's been in the executive branch she's been vice president through it all when they've been sending all the weapons defending it so we need to I I think that's

59:22

another thing that needs to happen after this is and I was asked this a couple of days ago about

59:28

what can we do uh and uh uh changes in the in the narrative changes in the Consciousness here and

What can we do?

59:35

then I answered it and I thought actually I'm I'm thinking in a very Western Centric way in

59:40

some ways it doesn't even matter what happens obviously we have power here because we're in an imperial capital but really the conscious the the global South is much more conscious of how the

59:50

world works is much more conscious of the reality of Israeli power is much more conscious of the of us power so we need to follow their lead there's wonderful people around the world that uh and

1:00:01

leaders that have been speaking out forcefully for Gaza like we talked about last time like Gustavo

1:00:06

Pedro in Colombia uh it's not a coincidence there in countries that have been hammered

1:00:11

by the empire for for centuries uh so we need to listen and we need to we need to understand

1:00:17

that we don't have all the answers and we need to follow the lead of the people that are actually at the butt end of this system which is now more than anyone people in Gaza thank you Matt I mean

1:00:29

I I get from speaking to you that there's a lot of optimism and we've just got to refine our our

1:00:34

activism and make sure it's Focus rather than sort of this general you know ceasefire call that we we

1:00:41

have and also I get from the conversation today that we need to actually change our terminology

1:00:46

because terminology makes a lot of difference so it's not even complicity it's collusion they're

1:00:52

working together participation I like the word participation and it's not just semantics they

1:00:57

are participating they are participating they are providing intelligence to the Israeli milit likely

1:01:04

the Israeli military they won't tell us but yeah you can be sure it is to uh uh to help them in

1:01:11

their operation in Gaza that's participation they are s they are allowing our base on Cyprus to be

1:01:17

used to ship weapons to Israel to be used in Gaza that's participation they are participating in it

1:01:25

um and this is and as I say it's very very very important this is the only information we know about the participation for sure is way way deeper way deeper because as I say it involves all these

1:01:37

institutions which the British establishment has made completely secret not to protect us but to protect them from us so the SAS completely secret we can't know what they're doing so we can

1:01:48

imagine what they do intelligence agency gchq MI5 MI6 what are they MI6 and gchq what's their role

1:01:56

we got we don't know at all they're probably part of the spy team they're probably part of other teams that are in Israel or have been involved we don't know anything so uh uh it's quite scary when

1:02:08

you think about it and it's quite scary when you understand that the general population does not

1:02:15

even think we're complicit apart from arms they know we're sending arms but they don't know the

1:02:20

there's a literally 0.01% of the population would even know the small bit of participation that we

1:02:26

know about so that is a that's a job for all of us uh it's an educational job and actually to

1:02:32

go to your question previous question so much of this I think is about education it is yeah

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because the way uh we are as dissidents or as people that are interested in truth and truth

1:02:45

is Tainted by corporate and state power wherever it is when it gets out into the society yeah and

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they have all the power and they have all the money state and corporate sectors so uh you're

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up against think tanks which are funded by arms companies oil companies NATO foreign Ministries

1:03:03

you up against establishment media which is funded by corporations where all the journalists come

1:03:09

from elite private schools every uh institutes uh academics all these uh uh parts of the British

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establishment and it goes for the us as well they have all the money all the resources and

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and to to project their narrative onto Society um so it's literally like you've got a toothpick

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against like a two ton truck to go to to try and push back um but that but there's an opening now

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that I've never seen CU I've been in this game for a long time and saying all this stuff that people call you crazy and conspiracy theorists and I've never seen the openness now to hearing

1:03:51

these ideas about the reality of how it's working so and I think we need to take advantage of that

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and and and that happens through activism through uh uh educational uh forums through talks like now

1:04:03

I go every single time I get a request for a talk I say yes because I I don't enjoy them that much

1:04:10

but I feel like it's so important and that's how we do it we and education is the way forward but one that topic I mean lots of um Islamic societies and Palestinian societies you know their members

1:04:21

would be watching uh the thinking Muslim podcast I mean you're happy to to be invited on to for sure yeah yeah and it's interesting the role of the Muslim Community because they

The role of the Muslim Community

1:04:32

are um through a Confluence of historical factors they are generally on the other side of the Empire

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yeah not just in Gaza if you look at Iran if you look at East Asia um uh Syria other places they

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are so they have a there is a special role now for for the Muslim Community and I think the Muslim

1:04:55

community's eyes are open maybe more than any other community think so because the victims of

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uh Imperial crimes understand them much better you know and the other thing is I think maybe

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related to that is the repression of the Muslim Community even within the West itself which is

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I've never seen anything like it up to now you know like uh you got Donald Trump obviously uh uh

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uh in the United States but here Tommy Robinson and what you can say about Muslims now is is

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is akin to what what how Jews were treated in the 1930s by the British establishment um

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and you could read in the Daily Mail outwardly anti-semitic stuff now you can read islamophobic

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stuff every single news well the tabloids you can read it every day um so that gives the Muslim

1:05:43

Community an understanding of societal forces that you don't have if you're at the top people don't

1:05:49

have that at the top because they they it's their incentive is to embe all the [ __ ] theories of

1:05:55

their fed uh to justify the system when you're on the other end of that system you you have an understanding and you see that I've done a lot of reporting around the world in the Middle East

1:06:04

for also other places and when you're talking to peasants who are at the uh at the sharp end

1:06:10

of the corporate system which is something I've looked into a lot they understand how it works a

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lot better than if you go and talk to a a lawyer in a in a top firm who's working for a corporation

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because they just can spout the theories whereas the people on the ground have been had to learn the system from the reality of how it operates in their on their land and with their resources

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so yeah I and and I mean I think this has been the case for a long time with the mus I think it

1:06:38

really happened with the war in Iraq right yeah after September the 11th and and then the build up to Afghanistan and Iraq like there was a a big shift in uh uh in the Muslim Community and

1:06:51

uh into politicized uh and that's that's being accelerated by the the war the war in Gaza and

1:06:57

also the links with the left you know stock the war Coalition was quite uh was a Pioneer in this in that there involved a lot of Muslim groups uh a lot of leftwing groups and I think that's

1:07:07

something we need to cultivate because interests align truth Alliance you know um and there is and

1:07:15

there is and and there is hope you know like uh uh there is no reason that the Muslim Community

1:07:22

should be seen uh how it's presented in media as reactionary as medieval whatever you know these

1:07:28

racist tropes that you come out with the reason much more for the m to be Anti-Imperialist to be

1:07:35

against the uh the the the exploitation of their people which is what's happening and they are at

1:07:41

the bot end of it Canard it's always a pleasure but thank you very much for your time today thank you thanks for having me thank you please remember to subscribe to our social media and

1:07:53

YouTube channels and head over to our it thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter

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