Ep 194. - ‘The Reason of State’ - How Germany Facilitates Genocide with Hebh Jamal

January 3, 2025 Muhammad Jalal

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The situation in Germany is very tense for Muslims. The recent Christmas market attack has brought into focus how the political elites in the country malign muslim voices. but it goes deeper, there is a systematic campaign to make advocating for Palestine unlawful. Hebh Jamal is a Palestinian journalist and activist based in Germany , currently working on an upcoming documentary film, The Reason of State: Germany’s War on Palestinians.

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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation

Introduction

0:00

that's the amount of dedication this country has to Israel of course it doesn't matter that he supports the off he was practicing something called This is how they could put

0:10

the Holocaust behind them is by supporting Israel unconditionally Germany never fully densified I'm

0:17

subjected to like hours of interrogation Muslim Community has zero political capital in this country the situation in Germany is very tense for Muslims a recent Christmas maret attack has

0:31

brought into Focus how the political Elites in the country malign Muslim voices but it goes

0:36

deeper there is a systematic campaign to make advocating for Palestine an unlawful activity

0:43

now today we have the honor of inviting onto the show Palestinian journalist and activist he Jamal

0:50

he is a activist who's currently working on an upcoming documentary film the reason of State

0:57

an issue we're going to go into Germany's war on Palestinians he Jamal and welcome to the Muslim

1:06

thank you so much for having me that actually this is a a timely conversation but um I have to say

1:13

over the last year I've had so many Muslims from Germany who've contacted me asking me to address

1:20

uh the general situation of Palestinian activism in Germany so you know I think it's a long time

1:26

coming and jazak for for joining us um let's start start with the uh magur Christmas Market attack um

Magdeburg car attack

1:35

which we now find uh we found out was carried up by an Saudi ex-muslim islamophobe who from all

1:43

accounts supported the afd at least that's what his social media accounts suggest um just bring

1:50

us up to speed with um how that's how the sort of what's a Fallout what the Fallout has been

1:57

for the Muslim Community there in Germany yeah so first off I mean we were all incredibly shocked um

2:07

about the attack that took place you know a few days ago um and of course the immediate question

2:14

is what was the you know what was the identity of the attacker um fortunately it was um an Arab

2:20

aodi National the but the story of course as you just pointed out wasn't entirely as they wanted

2:28

it to be right this guy was an ex-muslim well I prefer the term atheist because I feel like the

2:34

concept of being an ex-muslim you just revolve around your hatred of your former religion which

2:40

I find incredibly weird um so this this atheist um islamophobe who is pro-israel who supports

2:50

the aate and right-wing extremists supports Elon Musk and all of these other you know

2:55

right-wing Nationals and of course now the the the conversation has shifted right um and now

3:05

it's it's oh this guy isn't an islamist he did it for other reasons but the general consensus of a

3:12

lot of people within the political elit and what the off day um the alternative for Deutschland

3:17

what they're pushing now is of course that he was an islamist like it doesn't matter actually what

3:24

his intentions were what his motives were um his personal grief with the German state was

3:30

apparently based on his social media post was that they were allowing um islamists to enter

3:35

the country so he's referring to syrians and other migrants and they're purpose they're purposefully

3:42

um not allowing ex-muslims and apostates and other people from you know the Middle East it

3:47

was a very peculiar um you know grief against the German State and and it really seems more

3:53

of like a paranoia in the sort of schizophrenia rather than anything that makes any logical sense

4:00

however for the grand scheme of things it actually doesn't really matter what his motives are what

4:05

what matters is his identity and his identity is an Arab and what the what the off is now pushing is that this was an islamist attack and we have to kick all of these Arabs and all of these

4:15

migrants out of our country of course it doesn't matter that he supports the of it doesn't matter that he you know basically supports everything she's saying um what matters is again his his

4:26

identity but there's something interesting also that that is taking place and it's not that you

4:32

know it's not it's it's it's totally disregarding his social media post it's this concept that the

4:37

right-wing um media some political pundits and of course the the online community is that he was

4:47

practicing something called right and I honestly I really haven't heard of this concept um until

4:55

until recently of course i' I've heard of you know you're not if you're in some sort of extr political pressure you could liot in certain situations it's not F on but no how how Germany

5:06

how Germany and how Germans are now interpreting this is that this guy this attacker was practicing

5:14

the act of lying to pursue his political goals um and his jihadist goals to attack non-muslims at a

5:23

Christmas Market so that's the narrative that is being pushed Now by a lot of people including yon

5:30

musk by the way he completely went with this and said no this guy is's a jihadist he's an islamist and the the only Al the only solution for Germany is to elect the offit to elect these essentially

5:42

Neo-Nazi uh party of course the mainstream political parties in Germany are are afraid

5:49

they know that this is picking up steam and so the entire political Spectrum for the last um honestly

5:56

over over the last few years have been shifting entirely to to the right um whether it's CDU fdp

6:04

all of the you know even dink the leftist parties they're all shifting to the right in order to you

6:10

know grasp at this uh you know right-wing uh Trend that is that is picking great steam in Europe in

6:18

the United States and honestly everywhere in the entire world actually yeah I mean I want

Elon Musk Germany

6:23

to pick up on the point you make about Elon Musk I mean why do you think that Outsiders

6:29

it's often the case that German politics is very parochial and the outside world doesn't really know too much about uh the uh the ins and outs of of German politics but why do you think

6:40

someone like Elon Musk has picked up on afd in fact it was on the day of the attack just

6:45

before the attack that he uh seemed to tweet his support for the party so what's what's this sort

6:53

of global uh interaction where does it come from well he's he's he's obviously not stupid I mean

6:59

he's not very knowledgeable in what takes place inside Germany I think you know that that part um I'm pretty confident in but he's he's not he's not stupid I think what these um world leaders are now

7:10

focusing on is trying to get sort of all of these major world powers on a similar platform right so

7:18

now Trump uh there was there was this uh attack on the New York New York City uh train station

7:24

the other day where this uh immigrant essentially you know lit up someone on fire um and that person

7:32

died and now the of course the rhetoric is we you know is kicking out all legal migrants and

7:39

not even illegal at this point like kick out you know kick everyone out of the country and

7:44

of course if there's a narrative that is similar to that is similar to the one that they're pushing in the United States it's of course favorable um you know it's it's it's not very surprising

7:55

that um you know right-wing Neo fascists are sort of banding together wherever they

8:00

um but his focus on Germany is interesting because you know uh the the off isn't always they they've

8:09

had conversations about banning the political party just a few years ago like this is this is something very very frightening and I think a lot in the political Le are also you know concerned

8:20

that that the AF is making major strides and of course El musk is capitalizing on that and um

8:25

anything to sort of gain more allies and and gain more um support for Trump and for the right-wing

8:33

Neo fascist agenda is of course welcome yeah um um the afd is is making ground uh in German politics

Islam and AFD

8:42

elections are coming up and and it seems like as you you implied in an answer to your question in

8:48

answer to a previous question it suggests that afd politics is now becoming the terrain that many of

8:56

the political parties are trying to move on to um why in particular is Islam such a major Focus for

9:05

the afd like bring us up to speed with uh their V virent islamophobia what what's behind that I mean

9:13

okay so so there's of course a few things I just want to kind of go back a little bit and piggy

9:19

back on how I how I you know what I meant by all these parties moving to the right so now uh you

9:25

know just just last year all Schultz the SP the Socialist the Socialist Party in Germany uh leader

9:35

of the Socialist Party in Germany essentially uh signed the biggest anti-migration bill in this

9:43

country's history right he signed the biggest anti-migration Bill to the point where cut cut

9:49

back extremely on benefits for migrants and Asylum Seekers and and you know uh uh you know people who

9:56

are were seeking Refugee status um he even they're even considering building Asylum centers in other

10:04

countries in in and so for example you would you would have someone who wants to seek Asylum right

10:09

to go to Germany they wouldn't come here and wait no the Asylum Center would be in a country like

10:14

Albania or in an African country they' pay that country to keep those migrants there until their application process is is finished and that of of course can take years so this is what I

10:23

mean like like all upshots you know and and people within um that's to you stdu and and others have

10:31

consistently been talking about keeping migrants at Bay not wanting migrants to enter the country

10:37

and if this is and if we do anything from history if it's it's of course not a rational fear um of

10:43

of course the the major concerns are things like the economy currently Germany um one of the the

10:48

major um problems is that Germany's carrying the EU when it comes to um the economy they are they

10:55

are subsidizing a lot of uh European countries that are not necessarily providing much within

11:01

the EU framework so this is one of the platforms that the off is actually is is building on is is

11:07

leaving the EU or dramatically changing Germany's involvement in it um so so so major issues like

11:14

real issues that people are experiencing like the economy like you know social benefits um are are

11:21

are the sort of you know Focus points but there's of course there's there's another side to this and

11:29

I I really believe that one of the major conversation shifters um around attacking

11:35

migrants has been the the overwhelming presence of pro Palestinian protests and solidarity across

11:43

the country and now they view this as a wave of imported anti-Semitism as they call it so

11:49

it's a very ironic thing where Germany is is now claiming that they are experts on anti-Semitism

11:56

and it's not that you know right-wing fascist fascists are you know anti-semitic no it's it's

12:02

the concept of imported anti-Semitism um where these Arab migrants and immigrant communities

12:09

have hostilities towards Israel they hate Jews and that's where the anti-Semitism is coming

12:14

and so actually one of the first indications that you know Olaf Schultz wanted to attack migration

12:21

was in a in a conversation with uh thean like a a German newspaper German magazine where they

12:29

asked him you know oh you know what do you think about all these anti-semetic protests that are taking place on the streets and his response was oh yeah we we we need to uh essentially kick out

12:39

all of these you know these unwanted people so that so this is where it's it's it's all sort of interconnected and as and and I could even give you a few examples please cut me off if

12:48

I'm rambling too much but uh another example is them literally changing the citizenship test to

12:55

include questions about Israel include questions about Israeli football teams and about you know um

13:00

Israeli holidays like it's it's very much you know and and if you say you you deny Israel's right to

13:08

exist you will not get your citizenship status and that's what we've seen um in a few cases actually

13:13

so far and there's other cases where um you know uh activists have been active you know going to

13:20

protests and they would and they would be refugees right so refugees attending protests if they get

13:26

arrested they that is grounds to revoke Refugee status and there are some cases where for example

13:35

uh you know Germany can't just send someone back so they don't have any sort of relations like for example with with Lebanon or before um the downfall of Assad um Syria so what they would do

13:46

is give them Toleration status so no it's called dong status in German so no no social benefits

13:53

no working papers essentially you're living in limbo in Germany you don't have any paper

13:59

is but you just can't leave so you're just tolerated um and and yeah and and this is sort

14:05

of so so when we say oh what is the you know why is the rightwing parties so you know have so much

14:13

hatred of Islam oh why why do they you know hate migrants so much it's it's it's it's really all

14:20

interconnected as as soon as there is any sort of you know either disturbance or um political activ

14:29

from the Muslim Community or otherwise or um of course an unfortunate uh just attack from

14:37

a lunatic it's all becomes jumbled together and everything sort of becomes interconnected and and

14:42

there's no separation between the two you know that's fascinating and and there seems to be a very strong connection between uh their antipathy towards Muslims and uh Palestinian activism and

‘Reason of state’

14:54

we've seen that over the past year um I would like you to I would like to ask you about about

14:59

the reason of State this idea that um the modern German state is deeply connected with the survival

15:09

and the existence of Israel can you explain like why that what is that connection and and

15:14

is it you know I suppose we know that Germany's very sensitive about about Israel because of its

15:19

horrific horrific genocidal past but um is that what what is um uh pushing a lot of or D in a lot

15:29

of this uh anti- Palestinian uh rhetoric so the the reason of State or the is uh is a sort of a

15:40

declaration it's not a legally binding concept it's not uh written anywhere in the Constitution

15:48

but so let me just sort of say what it is in 2008 uh Angel Merkel uh had a speech at the Israeli

15:55

gessa where she you know stood there and basically said that Israel's National Security is Germany's

16:02

Reon of state so Israel's protection and their you know the the security apparatus is of great

16:09

concern to the German government and you know as I said this is an legally binding statement

16:14

it's not written anywhere in the Constitution but it has essentially become a fact of fact of life

16:21

in Germany like it's it's it's reiterated within every major political decision concerning Israel

16:27

concerning Palestine it is you know on October 7th that was the first thing that Olaf Schultz

16:32

said was we stand in solidarity with Israel and um their National secur is our reason of State reiterated time and time and time and again um so you know really over the last um you know

16:44

decade and a half um that has been the concrete uh rhetoric um that has infiltrated German Society of

16:54

course let's but that's but that's not really the the that's not necessarily you know how Germany's

17:01

become so pro-israel it has taken place ever since post World War II they've established

17:06

great relationships with the state of Israel for for decades now um and their relationship

17:12

with with the Palestinians have been um have been increasingly hostile I mean ever since for example

17:20

uh refugees from liard came in the 80s to Germany uh Palestinian refugees escaping you know a civil

17:27

war they again like I mentioned this previously they were not given any sort of refugee status

17:33

because Palestine was not considered a state it was not considered a political conflict because it wasn't a state so how are these Palestinians refugees it didn't it wasn't uh it it it wasn't

17:45

any sort of uh of logic I guess to the to the German government so instead they gave

17:51

them this Toleration status and people would have suitcases by their doors waiting to be deported um

17:56

but of course Lebanon didn't want um didn't want those Palestinian refugees back and so Berlin and

18:02

just the rest of Germany has become the uh the essentially the the it has the most Palestinians

18:13

um in the diaspora outside of the Middle East and South America so it's you know if we're talking

18:18

about Europe or talking about Palestinians that that's where the most Palestinians are um and and of course those Palestinians that I mentioned that had Toleration status

18:28

they have grew up in poverty and isolation um and uh you know the situation is of course a little

18:37

better but that plays really really much into the Dynamics that uh are taking place today in

18:43

Germany so it's not just from the reason of stay in 2008 I it has been this this sort of hostility

18:48

towards Palestinians have been taking place for decades and it's over this false concept of you

18:55

know uh of atonement right of you know after what happened in World War II after Germany massacred

19:02

six million Jewish people they think that if they support Israel if they support the Israeli State

19:11

um and Israel of course saying that it speaks for all Jewish people around the world that is their

19:16

easy copout that's how they can enter the world stage as this big capitalist power this leading

19:23

force in the European Union um this is how they could put the Holocaust behind them is by

19:30

supporting Israel unconditionally and Palestinians have been this annoying thing that they've been

19:36

trying to squash under the rug um as much as they can and we have to remember Germany never fully

19:42

densified like this is It's a myth that they've reconciled with their past and have you know um

19:49

have have really really grappled with their their colonialist mindset that it's just not the case

19:55

Germany has always been seen as this poster child of how to re build oneself after after horrific

20:01

crime and and the United States needs to learn from Germany and etc etc and it's it's just a

20:06

lie it's it's not what happened um Germany needed to rebuild its image and in order to do that they

20:14

essentially took every every everything that the Israeli State said was of benefit to the Jewish

20:21

people without contradiction yeah tell me about your activism and Palestinian activism in general

Germany Liberal country?

20:28

because um you know we we're in the UK uh it's tense and the authorities often uh claim a lot

20:37

uh they say the same about anti-Semitism and used for similar similar tropes but generally

20:43

speaking um we're pretty free to engage in uh political activism for Palestine um we would

20:51

expect the same from Germany as a liberal country um what's been your experience not good not good

20:59

I mean so so Germany is not just you know silencing Pro palestini and protesters and and

21:06

and sensoring them and criminalizing them they're they're contributing directly to the genocide so they're second the second largest arms exporter to Israel behind the United States so they are aiding

21:17

and abetting genocide at every point they have become essentially the the propaganda wing for

21:23

the Israeli State there is very very very little uh you know dispute or argument against Zionist

21:31

propaganda within the German media in fact they just take everything that the Israeli um

21:36

state says as fact without contradiction without question um so you you have to understand that you

21:46

know when I mentioned the reason of State earlier when I mentioned that they are are very much

21:51

adopt this concept of it is very very taboo to be critical of Israel I'm talking within every major

21:59

political and educational institution that exist in this country Palestinians and pro Palestinians

22:04

they can't even get an event space in Germany um in 2019 there was an ant BDS resolution that

22:11

was passed you know within the Buddhist tag that says that it is it is it's it's not illegal again

22:17

this is not a legally findinding document but in order to prevent anti-Semitism um they you know

22:24

it's it's it's frowned upon by any institution to give space or Public Funding or anything

22:30

towards um Propel and organizations um there was another resolution that was passed earlier this

22:35

year the protection of Jewish life in Germany it reiterates the same thing um do not institutions

22:41

and including you know educational institutions and universities should not be giving space to

22:47

Pro Palestinian groups even clubs within their own University students within their own University are not allowed to have room or event spaces and of course the the UN again this is not a legally

22:57

binding document either but it be it it gives political backing to institutions to push out and

23:06

isolate prop Palestinian activists and essentially criminalize them even though this is the law so my

23:14

experience um has has been has been tough it of course other people have it worse but I I

23:22

have been investigated by the uh German federal police for my activism I current I'm you know I

23:30

currently have this uh security alert that is on my name and on my husband's name every single time

23:35

I leave the country or enter the country I'm subjected to like hours of interrogation and

23:41

uh bo searches and uh yeah even searching of my material and and if they want my devices as well

23:49

so uh that's that's that's that's sort of uh you know my reality that's that's taking place now I

23:55

was I man one border security officer managed to sort of tell me why because usually they don't tell you why and he said it's because uh the the alert that was written was because I was being

24:08

radicalized in direction of anti-israel hate and anti-Semitism and that I question Israel's right

24:14

to exist so that's the that's the amount of you know that that's that's the amount of dedication

24:22

this country has to to Israel um I can give you so many examples my my friend Ed colleague who

24:30

works with me when the same you know organizing group Zuna and you know from where we are in man

24:36

uh he at a protest said and I and I quote uh that he advocates for a free Palestine for all people

24:46

regardless of religions and denominations from The River To The Sea now be he said that right

24:54

and he was found guilty by The District Court of Kwa for incitement to hatred and anti-Semitism

25:01

and he and and it's a felony charge so he was he even charged over 7,000 year fine over this one

25:09

sentence because he and and it was a whole bunch of accusations he relativized the Holocaust he it

25:16

was inight incitement to hatred and violence and hatred of Jewish people all because he you know

25:22

all because he he contextualized the phrase from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free and

25:28

that is that's that's it's it's it's absolutely ridiculous it it doesn't make any sense it it

25:36

shouldn't uphold in any court of law but here we are you know where none of these documents

25:41

that you know are supposedly saying that all of these things are illegal none of them are legally binding and yet our courts our judges public prosecutors are finding grounds to find uh prop

25:54

Palestinian activists um you know guilty of these baseless baseless accusations it has been 440

26:02

something days of genocide and the German State refuses to see its faults amnesty Germany amnesty

26:10

Germany said that Israel is conducting a genocide humans right watchat said Israel is conducting

26:15

a genocide the United Nations says Israel is conducting a genocide the um IC is issuing an

26:21

arrest warrant for Nyah y Galant and Germany says that it might not be able to arrest why because

26:29

of Germany's relationship with Israel and its historical responsibility towards Israel it it

26:35

does you know Germany has has like created itself as this upholder of international law post World

26:44

War II I mean the IC was sort of created to to put war criminals um in and yeah to to to prosecute

26:54

and to be able to hold these people accountable and here is Germany supporting another genocide

27:01

refusing to abide by institutions that were created due to horrific crimes such as you know

27:10

such as what Hitler did so so yeah I mean I mean I I I could go on I mean I was I was disinvited

27:18

by University um a university Professor invited me and the uh University itself disinvited me and

27:26

canel the event of you know off politicians and um right-wing uh you know uh Zionist groups who said

27:37

that I support Terror and I'm a Hamas fanatic and a Jew hater and that was sort of what was rolled

27:43

in in every major mainstream media um we had an event with Greta thumberg the you know a few weeks

27:51

ago and uh I I spoke at the event with her for over over two hours not a single quote of mine

27:59

was attributed to me it was just yeah you know the moderator was a Jew hater and um Israel hater and

28:07

and Terror supporter so it there's there's there's no there's no ethical journalistic standards here

28:14

there is no um any sort of push back you know um from these from these basis accusations and really

28:24

what happens is there's sort of proing activists living in a sort of sub Society I mean we are

28:30

on the streets every every single and in some places like Berlin really every other day um in

28:37

my city like every other week where we're just we we're consistently on the street since last year

28:42

and instead of engaging with us it's again the same sort of criminalization and and um hateful

28:50

rhetoric um I want to sort of go back to something I missed before when talking about you know how

28:56

how this this really impacts the Muslim Community yes I want to reiterate that the Muslim Community

29:03

has zero political capital in this country it's not like the UK it's not like the United States that has some sort of legal institutions like Care New York care you know um or or or other you know

29:15

human rights groups that advocate for for Muslims in the country there is zero political Capital

29:22

you know there there is nothing that Muslims are contributing to politically they're they're they

29:27

are only they are only spoken to if they you know want to condemn something like this is this is

29:34

the interaction that Muslims in this state have or it's you know uh or it's interacting to to uh have

29:42

like these counter violence extremist programs like within their communities and to uh you know

29:48

figure out how to entrap Muslims and and U to to weed out radical people from uh you know the the

29:54

community that's that's the amount of interaction that the state and uh Muslim groups have so I can

30:01

tell you that not a single mosque in all of Germany not a single Muslim institution there

30:07

are Muslim institutions but there isn't um there isn't any political Muslim institutions none of

30:13

them mobilized for Palestine none of them and I always was you know I I was very angry over this

30:22

I I always feel very isolated what you see on the streets is not necessarily majority Muslim actually it's it's more leftist and secular and um other types of activists who are standing side by

30:32

side and you know with Palestinians it's it's of course Arabs and Muslims as well but no no muslim

30:38

institution no political Muslim institution is is organizing that that's majority leftist secular

30:43

prosan organizations my you know my group included we are Muslims involved but um it's also a lot of

30:50

non-muslims involved as well and that's what how we've been Reliant and and pushing um against this

30:56

genocide you know it's it's it's not from Muslim institutions and I sort of want to explain why um

31:03

every major religious institution every um you know uh every yeah every religious institution

31:10

Etc is sort of publicly funded in Germany to get tax cuts like it's it's you know it's similar to

31:16

how it functions everywhere else but in Germany nearly everything is publicly funded this is

31:22

this is something that's interesting because I I've always been a proponent for publicly funded education publicly funded in tions like you know the it should be it shouldn't you know

31:32

things like this shouldn't be private right it it shouldn't be for-profit however in Germany it has created a complete like homogeneous like political infrastructure to the point where you

31:42

know if you if you have any sort of politics or any if you say anything sort of political in your

31:48

Friday sermons or anything like that your M can get shut down just no questions asked shut down

31:55

um there was the Islamic Institute of of Hamburg this beautiful uh Shia mosque in Hamburg that was

32:05

shut down uh a you know maybe like six months ago because some of the constituents were like proesa

32:14

that that was the basis of shutting down a mosque like that was the the the absolute because they

32:21

and apparently now all the constituents support Terror and any any constituent or any board member

32:27

that was officially associated with the musk because is criminal proceedings against them right now um and they shut down you know a few other mosques throughout the country since then

32:36

um because there there was seemingly support for anything Pro Palestinian related it's yeah so so

32:45

of course Muslims are afraid and Muslim Scholars and Muslim you know uh emims or whatever are also

32:51

afraid so I can I can tell you here in Manheim I have not seen a single Friday sermon um like Jah

32:59

prayer dedicated to Palestine over the last you know 400 days because of this fear because any

33:08

mishap they will be shut down and a lot of these communities and a lot of Muslim student groups

33:13

also by the way this is another thing Muslim student groups within universities that have less to lose than these institutions all want to prioritize having space for you know their

33:24

religion for Community which I can understand um I don't agree but I I can understand um so

33:32

so yeah so so nothing would be mobilized I mean that's I mean that's terrible I mean what what

Muslim group pushback?

33:38

you're describing there seems uh seems uh almost fascistic in in in many ways because um you're

33:46

you're creating um a society where uh there can be no political outlet for your frustrations um

33:55

is there any push back from Muslim groups and Muslim Community organizations I mean you know

34:00

often we find that among student populations uh there there often is push back when when the state

34:07

the heavy hand of the State uh is present um do you find that uh I mean you've stated there that

34:14

student societies are are as silent as the the major institutions but student societies this

34:20

is also this is also the difference I I can tell you um there has been very successful occup tions

34:28

that mimic the student student movement in the United States and Germany like occupations of building that have lasted hours and hours and in encampments that have lasted days um but again not

34:40

for Muslim not for Muslim groups a lot of Muslims are involved but not primarily for Muslim student

34:45

groups um I could I could just say though that I'm not necessarily 100% in tun to everything the

34:52

Muslim Community is doing you know there there's there's a lot of Muslims in Germany there's

34:58

the Turkish beauty also in Germany so I'm not necessarily 100% if there's there's significant

35:06

push back but I can tell you that the push back that is taking place is from Pro Palestinian and

35:12

anti-racist um organizations I mean that's such a shame um now is it because of this this Aura this

Atmosphere of fear?

35:19

atmosphere of fear that the state has deliberately created is that why the Muslim Community is silent

35:26

or is the silence more deeper I mean is there an a quietism an interpretation of the dean that uh

35:35

makes them more uh reconciled with uh with uh uh with sort of not speaking out on on Palestine well

35:44

if there is any sort of interpretation of the dean I feel like sometimes we find that we try

35:50

to you know justify how we exist and we use our religion to do that I mean I don't think Muslims

35:57

are different than other groups in that regard in terms of how they utilize Faith um to make sense

36:04

of their circumstance I do have to say that I I really believe that it is fear um the the German

36:10

government has been merciless when it comes to things like this I I know many people that have their houses raided that are in are under you know severe surveillance I can tell you I'm under very

36:21

significant surveillance so I can't imagine um being a part of you know being a leader within

36:27

a Muslim uh community and and not you know being under the same type of extreme surveillance I'm

36:34

sure they're being incredibly incredibly careful and a part of that you know a part of that fear

36:40

and not wanting your house rated and not wanting to be seen as an extremist and not radical and etc

36:46

etc etc is is of course um staying silent on on pales and I I I don't know what the solution to

36:55

this is I really don't like what should should we just not have mosques and Community spaces and everyone go on the streets you know I feel like the street could be your community space in

37:04

my personal opinion but a lot of um people don't see the same and they have to play the long game

37:10

and that's that's that's what I feel the the initial gut reaction um is to a lot of um you

37:16

know religious communities and I and I want to say that a lot of these people they got to where they are because of how much they've been criminalized in the past so I don't want to undermine their

37:25

efforts as well they've they've tried um over the last decades probably more than me um and and I I

37:33

I don't I don't want my critique to you know to to sound insensitive of what they've gone

37:39

through um but this is just where we are now um Muslims have been consistently under attack in

37:47

this country um you know just yesterday there was this uh there was this report in Berlin where this

37:53

um man wanted to light someone's apartment on fire and the police said that it it was over xenophobic

38:00

motives so we could see it's just going to get worse um you know leading with misinformation

38:08

that this man that did the Christmas attack was was an islamist um was a jihadist and and and a

38:13

radical terrorist is is is it doesn't you know facts facts just don't matter anymore it doesn't

38:20

matter what you say um and we're going to it's it's going to be a lot worse and I and it's it's a

38:27

scary time actually to to live in Germany can I can I then ask you about push back from The

38:32

Wider Society I mean is there a um in for example in the UK even though the press and the government

Wider German population?

38:40

and the opposition are very much pro-israel uh the sentiment amongst the majority of Brits is

38:47

pro Palestine and it's growing especially amongst younger uh I'm talking about wider non-muslim uh

38:54

youth um there's a plurality now of of people who are pro Palestinian and pro Palestinian voices are

39:01

are are are growing in the mainstream as well um is there no such movement in in Germany well I I

39:10

think I I really do believe that the general public is is getting there I really do think

39:16

so I I don't want to say all of the stuff that we've been doing is in vain like I really I want

39:21

to believe that people are responding and I could tell you students are responding like I can tell

39:28

you um there is now a pro palestini organization in nearly every single state in Germany um there

39:34

are students for Palestine groups that have that have grew enormously since the genocide started

39:42

um and this amount of support in this public debate um hasn't taken place in this way for

39:48

for decades in this country so it's it's um I I I think it's it's it's it really is impacting there

39:55

was a report that said that majority of Germans I think 60% or something uh disagree with arms you

40:02

know arms exports to Israel so even even that like nothing to do with Palestine nothing to

40:08

do with people just don't want to send weapons for war whether it's in Ukraine whether it's in

40:14

uh whether it's in Israel it's it's that much the you know even the German government is not

40:20

necessarily listening to its people um and this you know this was and of course these studies take place every every so often um it doesn't necessarily say to the sentiment that they have

40:29

towards Palestinians in particular um I find that I think it's it's really hard for Germans to to

40:36

humanize Palestinians but just that particular concept of just not wanting to send weapons and

40:43

create more instability and have our you know have uh uh German Germany's arm everywhere like the

40:50

United States um that also is not taken seriously either yeah I mean one you know that's that's

Comfort vs Religiosity

40:57

very um uh very troubling actually what you see there I mean I I'm going to be uh inshah

41:03

interviewing Shear suan uh who of course has been very vocal on on Palestine and it's a question I

41:09

think I should ask him um how much should we balance these long-term goals of of uh

41:17

the Muslim Community and their comfort and their religiosity with the immediate um genocide and and

41:24

the need to speak out against against the these um atrocities I mean I I'm I'm with you I'm in

41:30

favor of of speaking out and being far more vocal but it's it's a tough decision I suppose for lots

41:37

of community organizations to make yeah I mean I have you know I know that it's different for my

41:45

husband and I because I uh we lost a lot of people then um you have family in Gaza I remember yeah

41:53

yeah so my husband's from Gaza I've been to I've been to Gaza 2022 I you know um a lot of beautiful

42:00

memories and a lot of beautiful people that are no longer with us and can no longer um you know

42:06

Ries that can no longer exist and my husband and I were of course in a very different Camp um we are

42:14

we have fail with people that use their faith for complete you know of course deep using their faith

42:23

for deep comfort you know faced with millions and billions of dollars of of just and and countries

42:31

wanting to destroy and Ma and and butcher um you know their their family their home so my husband

42:40

and I of course sort of uh we're at a we're at a place where it doesn't necessarily matter what the

42:46

German state does to us in particular um what what what matters and and by the way there's

42:53

there's nothing that the German State can do that is worse than what's taking place with Lea um and I and I really I really wish that you know Muslims sort of get over themselves in

43:05

this concept of of wanting to feel comfortable like how do you want to feel comfortable exactly

43:11

like you know there's there's there's no way for us to feel comfortable in this country that

43:18

that doesn't want to take you as you are unless you take off the head scarf unless you denounce

43:26

everything unless unless you you know unless you build your entire life to to look like them and

43:33

think like them and act like them uh and and of course it doesn't matter how much you assimilate

43:39

my husband's a doctor he you know he he works for German society as much as he possibly can um and

43:48

to the you know to the to the outside world that actually doesn't matter what you do to contribute

43:53

um you at the end of the day are are not on the same you know societal level as as Germans and I

44:02

think we just need to I I I I just I I really believe that we can find a lot of Beauty in

44:08

in fighting these oppressive systems we can also find a lot of faith in fighting these oppressive

44:14

systems unfortunately me personally I have been very much isolated from the Muslim Community

44:20

um here and you know before even in the United States I I I was I was very much involved in it

44:27

was this it was this conscious decision to play into um you know the political landscape of the

44:33

country um to ignore the deeply deeply oppressed um to side with things like police officers and

44:41

and state infrastructure over um the the the poor and and and downtrod and so I've always had these

44:52

conflicts and they've become more pronounced here um but they exist everywhere everywh they

44:57

of course exist everywhere and people want to find safety over um political Victory I guess

45:03

and I I can understand it um but I vely disagree with it no I think I think uh you know what your

How to help?

45:12

your position is probably um the better position when it comes to uh our relationship with God and

45:19

and with Allah subhana tala so I I'm I'm I'm with you there um I suppose my final question

45:26

for you is how can we help from outside I mean is there anything we can do as Muslims from around

45:32

the world who may have a a more Freer hand uh to to speak uh to to help the situation there

45:38

in in Germany apart from just highlighting uh as you've eloquently done today highlighting uh the

45:46

the horrible situation that you find yourselves in nothing if you don't do anything for us I

45:52

think that you know we'll be fine like I think of course it's fearful and there censorship and there

45:57

criminalizing of of pro Palestinians but um it's it's it's it's again nothing compared to what's

46:04

going on in Palestine it's nothing compared to what our brothers and sisters and family and and um people are are facing and I much would much rather prefer uh the energy going towards fighting

46:19

that and you know then you know dealing with our problems here we'll we'll we'll figure it out

46:26

um and I think that you know I I think that the debate is Shifting I think that um the reaction

46:33

and I want this you know I want this to finally be said is sort of the the fascist reaction to

46:41

propos activists to people on the ground demanding change and demanding um accountability is because

46:49

there's something happening you're not going to have a fascist reaction if nothing is happening if everything is the status quo you're not going to have a shift to the right right you only have

46:58

this um you only have these um Neo-Nazi sentiments and and people wanting to criminalize Palestinians

47:05

and say you can't save from The River To The Sea and all of these things because um because you're doing it right and I and I think that you know every major push every activist movement

47:16

faces extreme extreme repression that that has been the case throughout history and we're no

47:23

different you know Palestine is no different than what takes what what takes place before

47:28

and what's going to take place after I think it's it's when we understand how Palestine is situated

47:34

in world history and you know as a whole is is a dehumanization of a people and forces you know you

47:43

know propagating towards that dehumanization um so you're it's that's obviously not hard that's

47:50

obviously not easy to to to fight Jamal uh thank you so much for your for your time today that

47:58

sorry please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head

48:07

over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter jaak

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