Ep 215. - Why Have We Forgotten Kashmir? With Dr Muzzammil Ayyub Thakur
It was the great Mughal emperor Jahanghir who said about Kashmir, Gar firdaus, ruhe zamin ast, hamin asto, hamin asto, hamin ast - If there is a paradise on earth, it is here, it is here, it is here. For 76 years, this beautiful land and its wonderful people have been under Indian occupation. In 1947, upon partition, the original settlement between the principalities and the Indian government was to create an autonomous region, where the vastly Muslim population would govern themselves under Indian sovereignty. Over the successive decades and governments, this agreement has been eroded and today Kashmir is one of the most heavily militarised places in the world.
Yet we do not talk enough about Kashmir and the plight of its Muslims. To set the record straight I am honoured to have on the show Dr Muzammil Thakkur who is the President of World Kashmir Freedom Movement.
List of Books on Kashmir:
Victoria Schofield - Kashmir in Conflict
Victoria Schofield - The History of Kashmir
Alastair Lamb - The Birth of a Tragedy
Alastair Lamb - A Disputed Legacy
Christopher Snedden - The Unwritten History of Kashmir
Khalid Bashir - Kashmir: Exposing the Myths Behind the Narrative
Shah Nalik Haider Chadura - Tarikh-e-Kashmir
Mridu Rai - Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir
Assorted Authors - Do You Remember Kunan Poshpora?
Sanjay Kak - Until My Freedom Has Come: The New Intifada in Kashmir
You can find Dr Thakkur here:
X: https://x.com/M_A_Thakur
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
we model ourselves like the Palestinians we resist the same way they do we've been occupied suppressed oppressed tortured and forcibly disappeared
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torture centers on children as young as 5 years old we have been a laboratory experiment are we not Muslim enough for you we maintain our resistance
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we maintained our Muslim identity and we're proud of it we have no problem in it it was the great morgul emperor jangir who said about Kashmir
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if there is a paradise on Earth it is here it is here it is here for 76 years this beautiful land
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and its wonderful people have been under Indian occupation in 1947 upon partition the original
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settlement between the principalities and the Indian government was to create an autonomous
0:53
region where the vastly Muslim population would govern themselves under some notional
0:58
Indian sovereignty over the successive decades and governments this agreement has been eroded
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and today Kashmir is one of the most heavily militarized places in the world in 2019 the
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government of narenda Modi annuled the provisions of the Constitution that gate Kashmir the special
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status the so-called article 370 and began measures to integrate the territory into an
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Indian supremacist State the revocation enabled Indians to purchase land in the valley and within
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time res set its Muslim majority demography Indian occupation has been particularly brutal
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and these past six years have seen horrendous rights abuses yet we do not talk enough about
1:41
Kashmir and the plight of its Muslims to set the record straight I am honored to have on the show
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Dr mazam thakur Who is the president of the world Kashmir Freedom Movement is Kashmir a forgotten
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conflict Dr Ma aamayum and welcome to the thinking Muslim wum Salam thank you for having me so Dr M
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let's start from the very very Basics because I I I suspect there are lots of Muslims who just don't know enough about the Kashmir conflict its Origins who's occupying uh when did it begin um
Occupation of Kashmir
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what's the nature of the occupation is it like the Wagers is it like uh Palestine you know that
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there are uh I suspect many if not most Muslims who are watching this just don't understand the k
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conflict so just take us through Kashmir 101 the very basics of this so like most uh conflicts um
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or outstanding conflicts it's a product of British the British rage um K has been occupied since 1947
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but our Liberation movement has started for a long time we were sold by the British to the seek uh to to the D Empire in 1846 so our history goes back the same way that Palestinians have also
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it's not everything did not start in October the 7th everything didn't start in 1947 or 1948 but if we go based on uh um modern history post partition India and Pakistan were created Muslim
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majority nations were supposed to go with Pakistan Hindu majority nations with India the problem with
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Kashmir was we had a Muslim majority with a Hindu ruler the Hindu ruler of course wanted to exceed
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with India but because the population were Muslim it was supposed to go with Pakistan India said no
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no no we have to accept what the rulers decision is and decided to impose their occupation whereas
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in other places like Hyderabad it had a Muslim ruler but Hindu subjects and India said no no
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no we have to listen to what the people want so it was basically you know selective outrage and
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selective choices by the Indian government at the time they decided to occupy Kashmir the people of
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Kashmir did not want to be part of India well whether they wanted to be part of Pakistan or independent is a completely different matter they just didn't want to be a part of India
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and uh people resisted people fought the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir de decided to resist
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October 27th 1947 we recognize as a black day when the Indian forces landed in Kashmir and
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occupied the territory um and since then The Liberation movement has been ongoing now since
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now I can tell you about the atrocities since then over 70 years but I'll only tell you about
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what happened in November where a quarter of a million Muslims were massacred in jamu
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and hundreds of thousands more had to flee and move to Pakistan or other areas because of the
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uh the genocide that had happened so genocide for the people of Kashmir has been going on for the last 76 years and it wasn't incremental it happened all of a sudden um and since then we've
4:49
been occupied suppressed oppressed tortured and forcibly disappeared we've had uh uh
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pellets bullets the use of uh torture centers on children as young as 5 years old the Abduction of
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children the abduction Abduction of men and women languishing in jails political leaders like masam
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andrai kasim faku they murdered Ali Shah gilani and as sah now you may not know these names but
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these names are as dear to us as they are as as certain names would be for the Palestinians or
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for the Iraqis or for the Afghan these are Big names for us um responsible for the resistance
5:29
responsible for pres trying to preserve the Muslim identity so the India decided
5:35
to occupy Kashmir because they wanted the land for themselves for a multitude of reasons some
5:41
will say because of Water Resources uh a lot of the water hydroelectric power that is can be generated and that is generated goes to India um it's a huge potential there also uh it's an a bone
5:52
of contention between Pakistan and India India don't want to lose face by giving up Kashmir to Pakistan um and at the same time you also have to remember there are separatist movements happening
6:02
inside India the siks they want their khalistan to be recognized the people in Assam are also
6:08
being subjected to some of the worst forms of violence people of Manipur uh nagaland the knels
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South Indians even the uh people of Maharashtra that are considered to be pure Indians even they
6:21
don't like the rest of India so I mean that's subject for a different day but the reason for
6:27
the occupation is simply because India didn't want to give or concede Kashmir to Pakistan they
6:32
didn't want to for Pakistan to create a larger Muslim uh uh belt in the region and uh cover the
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India's Northern Territory again probably better to ask India why it was so important to them but
6:49
from the perspective of a Kashmir a lot of it is ego a lot of it is geostrategic political
6:55
reasons you also have to remember there was a at the time the Russians also wanted a presence
7:00
in the subcontinent after the Cold War um so much going on at that time but the most important fact
7:07
to understand is that the Muslims were supposed uh were not supposed to be assimilated with the rest
7:14
of India you had a choice the same way that the rest of the Muslims inside India if they wanted to leave they left and they went to Pakistan and those that remained we know what the condition of
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the Muslims in India are today and the people of Kashmir knew what the conditions were going to be we warned in fact the Muslims of India that this is going to whatever is happen happening to us
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will happen to you we have been a laboratory experiment happening uh for the last seven
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decades and every time we would warn the Muslims in India that this is eventually going to happen
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to you and it happened to them it happened to them on a scale that even they couldn't understand we
7:48
maintain our resistance we maintained our Muslim identity we didn't allow it to be diluted so
7:54
anybody that said to us or asked us or expected from us to take it lying down the same way that other Muslims may have we model ourselves like the Palestinians we resist the same way they
Donate to Baitulmaal
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do one of the things that we should try to inculcate in our life is a reciprocation of
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of Allah in creation that we see in the Quran and through Hadith is for us to care for Orphans
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extend that care to the orphans in the world today and bab toal is at the Forefront of doing this $64 a month $768 a year you can take care of an orphan in the
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9:02
world is Kashmir a forgotten conflict and we talk about Palestine we talk about Gaza we talk about
Is Kashmir forgotten?
9:12
other places for some reason we don't talk enough about Kashmir is it forgotten you say that uh the
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similarities between Kashmir and Palestine there are also similarities between the oppressor India
9:25
and the zionists their ideology their philosophy uh uh the way they want to implement the uh pan
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Nation the theory of their Arian race Nation Theory but at the same time you're right I
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believe that we are the Forgotten Nation I think we are a forgotten conflict um if I go far back
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in history enough I can give you moments where we had our own Arab Springs multiple times and nobody
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noticed you mentioned 2019 it was a pivotal moment for us article 370 which was a provision that uh
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and 35a it was a provision that allowed kashmiris to own their own land so no Foreigner could buy up land in Kashmir that prevented settler colonization demographic change that's now
10:08
eliminated that is a major thing it's a major thing for the UR for the rohinga for the Palestinians as we've seen people have gotten uh um agitated about it but not for the
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people of Kashmir so it's beyond not just about the memories of are Kashmir is forgotten or not
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it's does anybody actually care about the Muslims of Kashmir are we not Muslim enough for you is my
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beard not long enough for you is my not correct enough for you what is the problem so as being
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here on thinking Muslim uh podcast and reaching out to a plethora of different type of Muslims
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around the world answer me this what is it about the kashmiris that you cannot get behind not just
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as Muhammad Jalal and I ask you I will ask you this personally as well and I ask everybody else as well what is it about Kashmir that you cannot get behind the same way that you can get behind
10:59
any other Muslim conflict around the world but it is quite odd isn't it um in Britain for example
Activism Palestine and Kashmir
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we've got a lot Pakistani community and probably the great chunk of those pakistanis are from
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Kashmir uh from Azad Kashmir we'll talk about the distinction in a second uh but yet they're
11:17
kashmir's uh but on University campuses young kashmiris young pakistanis young Muslims tend
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to do more activism say for Palestine than they do for Kashmir I mean how do you explain that
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disconnect see I find you very offensive I find that a very offensive question go on and I'll
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tell you why yes it's for the this is a question that has to be asked about the student communities
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student-led organizations the the Muslim organizations that exist in the United kingd I'm not going to name drop them to shame them all but we all know who they are yeah that it it it took
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it takes a genocide for people to get together for certain causes more recently for what happened in
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Palestine especially in Gaza it took that for people to get agitated and to get organized and
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to to try and uh uh alleviate the suffering of the people of Palestine when you ask me that why
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can't people get behind that for Kashmir I find it offensive not because you asking the question
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I find it offensive that other people have not realized that what are they not doing or rather
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what are they how are they Mis representing Islam and their identity as Muslims we spoke earlier and
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we were in the same protests and same uh uh vigils and same uh um you know anything that had to do
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with post 911 be it Afghanistan be it Libya be it Iraq and be it Palestine more recently with Yemen
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and other we're always we've always been there organizing protesting being in the back being in the front whatever it may be can you remember a time that you as Muhammad Jalal or your peers or
13:11
anybody else that you know did the same thing for the people of Kashmir so when you ask me why it isn't there I asked you why weren't you there why didn't you do it why didn't my friends do it my
13:20
colleagues do it why is it only the kashmiris that have to be have to talk about their own selves I ask you another question how many Palestinians do you see on the front lines talking about
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Palestine they have their people the Palestinians don't need to speak for themselves because we
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are all ready to give whatever it needs uh for their cause yeah who's there to speak for the kashmiris it's not and I hate to use the term and I hate to compare and I don't want to compare
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because the Palestinian cause is a sacred cause in fact it is so sacred to the people of Kashmir yeah and to me personally that in fact the first protest that I ever remember going into to were
13:59
Palestinian protests I don't remember going to the Kashmir protest until I was much much older but
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for the people of Kashmir the Palestinian cause is so sacred that anytime something happens in
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Palestine a few years ago in fact there was a an air raid jet fighters had shot uh uh their
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machine guns in Palestine and of course the world Community were in arms and the Muslim
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Community came out to the streets during that time only one person anywhere in the world was killed
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protesting for Palestine it was a Kashmir living in Kashmir from an occupied territory wow during
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this recent Spate of Violence by the zionists on the Palestinians we have kashmiris and Kashmir
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uh creating graffiti art in support of Palestine charged under the terrorism act and we're proud of
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it we have no problem in it we're not asking the Muslims to be charged under terrorism acts for the
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people of Kashmir we're asking them that at least you make the Dua at least in the in in J that you
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make the Dua for Kashmir the same way you do it for everybody else are we not part of that um do we not bleed to paraphrase Shakespeare do we not have two eyes two ears and mouth and nose as you
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do are we not part of that um so so explain the layout of of Kashmir so we have around a third
Geography of Occupation
15:19
of the country if I'm not mistaken that we would uh Define as aad Kashmir this is Kashmir which uh
15:27
is attached to Pakistan and then 2third of of Kashmir uh is under Indian occupation just set
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out the geography for me please it's important to remember that the aad Kashmir the liberated
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part of uh Kashmir which is called Azad Kashmir was liberated by its own people yeah they fought
15:46
the Indian doer they fought the Indian army uh and they managed to liberate themselves they wanted to liberate the entire of Kashmir yeah unfortunately the Indian army uh uh prevented
15:55
that that area of aad Kashmir has an autonomy within Pakistan the Pakistani Constitution has
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said that uh the will of the people of Kashmir once the pbit is happened the referendum has
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happened they will be the decision makers of how the relationship between Kashmir and Pakistan will
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be if they want to have an autonomy they want to be merged with Pakistan whatever the relationship Kashmir wants whereas India say that Kashmir is an integral part of India both parts of Kashmir um
16:29
to the extent that they even want to go to war to with Pakistan um for the So-Cal recapture of the
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liberated part of Kashmir now India will use the argument that Pakistani tribal forces an army but
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you know you can't let's leave the Muslim part of this aside let's talk about history historically
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there are plenty of documented uh evidences to provide that provide evidence that uh um
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the people after the world war they came back they were veterans they were armed they were itching to
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go when they heard the Muslims inside the Kashmir Valley were being massacred by the uh dogra ruler
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they wanted to liberate their fellow Muslims so those are the people that came uh in in an attempt to liberate the whole Kashmir land obviously one part was liberated the other part unfortunately
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fell to the Indian occupation which continues today and uh when we think about the demography of
Article 370
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of Kashmir in particular um overwhelming majority of Muslims overwhelming always has been yeah
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uh so let's talk about article 370 because in 2019 the Mii government uh and ahed sha the H
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home minister uh they issued this statement uh that they would revoke this really important bit
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of the Constitution uh which gave this autonomy to kashmiris and and prevented uh the purchasing of
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homes and land by non- kashmiris uh that's now been reversed and since then Kashmir has been
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I mean previous to that I think it's fair to say that um it was a heavily militarized uh Zone but
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it's now become even more militarized so just take me through the implications of that article 370 on
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Kashmir people please I can summarize 3703 VA very shortly it is legalized settle colonization and
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demographic change legalized constitutionally India had to amend that not only do they have
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to illegally revoke the articles that existed for Kashmir which were supposed to be temporary pending a referendum it is a conflict Zone it is a disputed territory according to the United Nations
18:33
so whatever India did was illegal to the extent they had to amend their own Constitution first
18:39
before they could fiddle around with Kashmir yeah that Constitutional Amendment essentially means
18:47
that non-muslims can come into Kashmir buy up our land at whatever rate they decide and kick us out
18:55
when infrastructure is being developed it's not being developed for us when roads are developed inside Kashmir has been most of the time it's been for the military personnel to be able to move from
19:03
one Barrack to another one territory to another um the our traditional apple orchards and saffron
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Fields have been converted into shopping malls and whatnot that's not our history that's not our culture it never has been um the rice fields the uh schools and hospitals have been taken over
19:20
and turned into bunkers and Military Barracks for the Army so this is basically legalized settler
19:26
colonization and demographic change that has never been seen seen before I mean yes we've seen it the way that the Israelis have have done it but where do you think the Indians have learned it from the
19:37
zionists they are hand in hand they always have been back so far back in history from the times
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of the 1920s they've had a relationship yeah when the RSS were formed it was envisioned uh
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um maybe not directly with the zionists at the time but more in line with the Nazis if you look at the uniform of the RSS the parent organization of the BJP which is run by moldi
19:58
the uniform same as the Nazis the salute same as the Nazis the vision the same as the Nazis do you
20:04
remember what the uh um the Nazis philosophy was one party one ruler one nation that's exactly the
20:11
philosophy that has been translated by the RSS for India that's more than 100 years ago
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the difference is they had patience they waited patiently until the 1990s they only had one or two members of parliament today they rule the country three terms Modi has won landside victories and
20:29
if he doesn't win the next one we know that they're going to have somebody else he may not individually win but somebody else will and what is their agenda to continue that annihilation of
20:38
the Muslim identity not just in Kashmir not just in the rest of India if people know then they know what the Muslims are facing inside India but the vision that they have of one party One Nation one
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ruler expands Beyond The Sovereign borders of India expands Beyond Bangladesh Nepal Sri Lanka
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even Beyond Pakistan all the way to Saudi Arabia now in my introduction I I said that uh it's one
Daily life of Kashmiris
21:00
of the most militarized places in the world I think there's one where every one citizen there
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are 10 for every 10 citizens is one soldier um and um uh what you've described there is a cultural
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demographic change but of course um it seems to me that um Indian occupation is far more than that
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it's far more violent than that just set up the sort of the daily life of a Kashmir for us please
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people have become so desensitized to violence right we we see it regularly uh not just in our
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neighborhoods not just on the TV not just in Palestine and the rohinga and Yemen and Syria
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we just see it so regularly that we don't it just doesn't register with us anymore but for someone
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like me that's witnessed it firsthand my wife tells me I still have night terrors um not I I
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mean I didn't know but apparently I have PTSD I've seen and I've had to bury more friends and family
22:00
with dismembered Limbs and their internal organs on the on the roadside and having to pick them up and take them to the burial I've done that more times than I care to remember and this is
22:10
not history I'm not talking about what happened in 1947 or 1836 I'm talking about what's happened in my lifetime what I've seen with my own eyes seeing mother's a particular mother that had been going
22:22
from home to school every single day but she'd always come back home empty-handed and I asked one of my friends after a long time of seeing this Reg I said why did she keep doing this and
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he said that uh her son had gone missing one day he had gone to school and he never came home and
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for the last 12 years she goes to school every single day hoping that one day she might see her
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son and bring him home again that's the reality of Kashmir in 2019 when article 3735 a were revoked
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there was a complete shutdown in Kashmir no media no internet no journalism no communication nothing
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m to the extent that it was such a strict curfew that a woman that had that had tried to go to the
23:04
hospital by foot that was about to give birth was prevented and she had to give uh uh birth she had
23:10
to give birth on the side of the road a still birth because there was no Medical Aid people
23:16
that had died in their homes or on the streets were prevented from being buried in the um in
23:23
the graveyard they were buried in their back Gardens I'm only telling you what's happened in the last 5 or six years I could tell you from 1947 how in a matter of days a quarter
23:32
of a million people were massacred a quarter of a million people in a matter of days a genocide
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and ethnic cleansing in itself and that's been happening ever since I can tell you about the hundreds of thousands of Orphans the widows the half widows do you know what a half Widow is a
23:48
half Widow is a woman whose husband has been en forcibly disappeared and she doesn't know where he is now tell me as a Muslim can somebody give that woman a fat and say to her can she
23:58
get remarried or not is she still married or not she's a half Widow and then you have the orphans the hundreds of thousands of Orphans you have the torture centers where people have
24:07
had Nails pulled out from their fingers people swear living in the localities localities they
24:13
swear that they can still hear the screams even though that that torture Center has been closed down many many years ago the level of PTSD that people have inside Kashmir probably
24:22
one in two people I think the msf medicine sou FL they said that one in two people have PTSD
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the I mean where do I start I can I tell you about the pellets pellets are illegal
24:36
to be used on on on human beings and that is the first use on people children as young as
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young as 18-month-old Hibba blinded in in her eye while she was sitting in her mother's lap inside her home what was her fault uh insha Malik blinded in both eyes permanently wanted
24:54
to be a doctor now she needs doctors children uh as young as 5 years old that were taken from
25:01
their mother's lap in the middle of the night and arrested because they might be a threat to the Indian State political leaders nearly every single legitimate
25:10
political leader inside Kashmir is in jail or has been assassinated Jal andrai was picked up from his home his body dismembered because he was going to testify in front of the United
25:20
Nations so I mean I remember case studies I can tell you the case studies from the Palestinians
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from the UR from the rohinga from the Iraqis from Afghanistan over the last 20 years can you tell me
25:35
about case studies in Kashmir as Muhammad Jalal and that's the problem it's not just about what
25:42
the situation in Kashmir is is that why is our voice not reaching you it's not that we we're not being heard our voices are there I'm here other people are here we speak we do we we we're
25:53
active where is the empathy and the sympathy or the activism for the people Kashmir the stories
25:59
that come out from Kashmir how many do you want I have is part of the Jammu Kashmir Coalition
26:05
of Civil Society he published many reports but one of his most famous reports was cited quoted by the
26:12
United Nations human rights commissioner is now in jail over since the last 5 years that report
26:18
is so important but how many people have read it it is documented evidence of all the war crimes
26:24
crimes against humanity ethnic cleansing genocide that has been committed inside Indian occupied Kashmir how many members of parliamentarians know about this let's leave them members of what do we
26:35
expect from elected officials how many of our uh um masjids know about this how many of our
26:43
organizations that claim to represent the Muslim Community in the United Kingdom have talked about
26:48
this how many have disseminated the information freely that's where we stand right now M tell
Assassination of uncle
26:55
me about your uncle uh he were he passed away my uncle was assassinated after I made a statement
27:04
in the United Nations uh regarding the arrest of war criminals like Narendra Modi Amit Shah ajid
27:11
doal um and many other people in the BJP um very shortly after that my uncle was found dead in a
27:21
very shallow River um and it was claimed that he had drowned um I mean the river was about that
27:27
deep I've been there I've lived there I know that River and for a person that's lived there
27:32
his whole life my uncle it just wasn't possible that he could have drowned and the marks on his
27:39
body did not indicate it was just a drowning the gentleman had been assassinated my cousins
27:44
languish in jail because of the work that I do it's not just my cousins everybody I anybody that
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talks about Kashmir suffers um one of them still is in jail and tortured regularly uh and asked
27:56
about my my activities my other family members either in jail or tortured under loudspeakers in
28:03
2019 the New York Times had published an article talking about how children as young as 5 years old were taken to the local Masjid and tortured on a loudspeaker to instill fear and Terror among the
28:12
population happened to my cousin and it's still happening to him so these are the these are the
28:17
realities when we talk about the similarities between Kashmir and Palestine yes our our sufferings are very similar sometimes shockingly the same but all perpet ated by our oppressor who
28:29
are also shockingly the same the same philosophy the same ideology the same tactics bear in mind
28:35
that India have been the largest importer of Israeli weapons in the world for the longest time they share intelligence they Share technology they share tactics I think once a year or twice a
28:46
year uh their military personnel visit each other to train each other in new forms of combat and
28:52
occupation when the genocide in Gaza began I vowed we would never let those responsible get away
Become a member
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30:40
membership and may Allah subhana wa taala accept from all of
30:46
us uh M your father I believe uh was the only person in modern Indian history to be prosecuted
Father’s resistance
30:56
for treason uh he was part of a resistance movement of an Insurgency uh can you talk to
31:03
me about your father and uh and the resistance in in Kashmir the resistance comes in many forms as
31:08
we all know um comes in armed political diplomatic economic uh my father was exiled from uh Kashmir
31:17
in the late '70s so um I was born in Saudi Arabia in Exile um my father's activities leading up to
31:25
that point involved being part of the islami J Tali an offsho of the jamaat Islam he founded the
31:32
youth Wing so even at that time they understood that the war that's happening inside Kashmir was
31:38
against Islam and the Muslim identity um by profession he was a nuclear physicist he had
31:43
a PhD Nuclear Physics um I think he was the first nuclear physicist from north of India um LED alone
31:51
from Kashmir but he organized along with other people they organized conferences in Kashmir
31:58
where the uh um Imam of Makkah had come to visit so they they were doing a lot of activities but
32:05
once we moved to the UK he continued The Diplomatic and political efforts and of course the representing the armed res resistance to the best of his abil abilities and the reason
32:16
for that is because armed resistance is a negotiating tool it may not be the means to
32:21
the end but it is a negotiating tool as we've seen in modern history and in in past history
32:28
that everybody believes that Solutions must be made at the table negotiating diplomatically and
32:34
politically but when the oppressor and your enemy refuses to come to the table and says there is no
32:39
issue there let alone the table there is no table what do you do so my father was involved in all
32:46
aspects of The Liberation movement and uh exiled never to return home so he never saw the marriages
32:54
of his brothers and sisters could never visit his his parents um even after they died to the
33:01
extent that once my father passed away in 2004 we appealed that he be buried in his ancestral home
33:07
in his ancestral land they denied it saying that uh he was an Enemy of the State and a traitor um
33:15
so I wear that badge with pride that uh he was an enemy of India an enemy of the oppressor it's a
33:23
certificate in itself I mean the Indian government would argue that the resistance in kmir is very
33:28
much uh a a proxy for the Pakistani government and the Pakistani military in particular I mean
33:34
is are there any grounds to that claim well the indigenous organizations s Kashmir the trf the
33:41
P majah all run by indigenous kashmiris yeah some of them may be based in Pakistan some of
33:47
them are still based in India some of them are in Kashmir those that are living in India does that mean that in that his or any of the organizations are proxies of the Indian government the location
33:55
of these organizations does not matter what matters is that what is the role of Pakistan the role of Pakistan has always been to lend political diplomatic and any form of support
34:03
to the people of Kashmir in any shape or form if they provide politically which they do and diplomatically which they do then we appreciate it if they facilitate armed resistance and uh any
34:12
other thing as well then I'm sure the people of Kashmir will welcome that as well because again
34:17
it is the only negotiating tool that exists so being proxies of Pakistan makes no sense it's the
34:23
people of Kashmir that are resisting India not the people of Pakistan not the government of Pakistan as as long as the people of Kashmir resists their oppressor we will have friends anywhere across
34:32
the world the same way that the Palestinians as long as the Palestinian says that we resist the zionists we will stand here we will stand and sit and do whatever needs to be done to liberate the
34:42
people of Palestine I mean how serious do you think Pakistan is and Pakistan military are uh
Pakistan intentions
34:47
when it comes to the liberation of Kashmir I mean is there a seriousness behind uh behind
34:53
their support or or they do they just use it as one part of Le yeah against their um against their
35:00
neighbor I can't speak on behalf of the Pakistan military or the Pakistan government what I can do is refer you to the recent statements of the chief of Army staff of Pakistan yeah who said we fought
35:10
three Wars against India of for Kashmir we can fight another 10 Wars right recently on the 5th
35:15
of February if people I I hope people know this and I know they don't so um I I pray that they
35:22
remember this the 5th of February is considered to be Kashmir solidarity day on that day
35:28
in aad Kashmir the liberated part of Kashmir the Kashmir mujah annually they use the 5th
35:36
of February as a as a day to gather the people together to remind them that the Kashmir movement
35:41
is still ongoing the the kashir mujah had been seen on the stage with Hamas in the liberated
35:48
portion of Kashmir right so when we talk about what Pakistan's role is or what do they want to
35:54
do I think the what we've seen over the last 6 months it's pretty evident that Pakistan fully
36:02
supports all forms of resistance against Indian occupation and tyranny most importantly against
36:08
the annihilation of the Muslim identity I mean the line of control between Pakistan and India
War over Kashmir?
36:14
seems to be pretty static now and um uh both sides they maybe for domestic purposes they talk about
36:21
as you said you know as W he says you know he can fight 10 more Wars and Baja used to say that
36:27
and Sheriff used to used to talk about that and of course Modi does that for his audience and and and
36:33
the congress party used to say that as well but in reality nothing has really shifted and and changed
36:39
for a very long time um is that an indication that a lot of this is hot air for public consumption
36:45
but in reality um there isn't really going to be a military solution to this conflict because neither
36:52
side would entertain going to war over Kashmir you would think that especially when both countries
36:57
are nuclear powers and then you have China which is right there that also has nuclear weapons and on the other side you have Iran allegedly that has nuclear weapons I use allegedly because nobody
37:06
actually knows yeah um you would think they wouldn't go to war but I remind you that the
37:14
Indian Air Force had sent their pilot abinandan uh to attack Pakistan yes and Pakistan returned him
37:20
with some fantastic te as he as he said not not Kashmir no unfortunately no I don't think he would
37:27
have been able to tolerate that tea yes um but he returned with tea now that was a test that was an
37:34
experiment you have to realize that India is no different to the zionists they they are cut from
37:41
the same cloth they have the same Playbook they do the same things to the same people they believe in
37:47
a pan Nation they believe that Pakistan was a mistake they believe it must be absorbed back
37:52
into India they believe that Bangladesh needs to be absorbed you know when sh Casina was asked from
37:57
Bangladesh you know that the only country that had the biggest problem was India yes it should make no difference to them what difference does it make that shik was Ed and somebody else
38:04
came in but they had a problem the interference that India had when Afghanistan was still under
38:11
occupation what was the role that India had in Afghanistan why would why did they have a base set up in Afghanistan why did they continue to have something in Tajikistan why are they trying
38:22
to create something uh against the cek the Chinese Pakistan economic Corridor this Chaba Court why do
38:28
they want to counteract the cek with that well why why is there so much influence in Nepal and
38:33
Burma and Sri Lanka by the Indians yeah they have an agenda the same way that The zionists Have And
38:39
if you if we pull up a map I can show it to you the way that the greater Israel map everybody has
38:45
seen the greater Israel map I tell you go have a look at the hindutva map they claim the holy Caba
38:53
in Makkah our holy Caba as the meshwar Mahadev Temple now Muhammad Jalal May laugh at this yes
39:01
but the Hindus inside India are stch believers in this really now we may have our own Iman and
39:07
we say ah nothing can happen to the Muslims we are strong and this and that what we've seen what the Muslims have done with the Palestinians and Muslim nations now if we have something called IM and do
39:18
you think that the hind the the the Hindus don't they also have a belief they also want to get
39:24
stuff done they want to create their pan Hindu Nation because they believe they are the the superior Superior race the selected race the Arian race they have an agreement with Israel you look
39:34
at the map again that the zionists will take up up to North Saudi Arabia and India will take the rest they want to create that entire belt because they believe that uh the entire world comes from
39:44
India whatever their belief system is and however much we ridicule it they still believe it now post 911 the West outsourced the war of so-call Terror which was actually the war on Islam to India and
39:57
happily accepted and that franchise that India now has has become so powerful that they're able
40:04
to tell the minister of external Affairs The The J shanka his name is j Shaner who was recently in
40:09
chattam house he's able to go to Washington DC and when asked about why India is not putting
40:15
sanctions on uh um Russian crude oil he said go do what you need to do that's not our business that's
40:21
your European problem he dismissed them like this Americans used to do that and India used to be the
40:28
yes sir no sir three bags full sir and now they're the ones dictating terms because they took that
40:33
franchise on the war against Islam and they've been very successful in it so successful in
40:38
fact that I would argue that they have been more successful than the Zionist in Palestine because you hear about what the Palestinians are going through but you don't hear what the people of
40:47
Kashmir are going through or for that matter what the Muslims in India are going through so when you ask no real war is going to happen between India and Pakistan they're both nuclear powers
40:58
but more importantly what is the war about is it just about land is it about geopolitical strategy
41:05
or is it about eliminating the Muslim identity for a greater vision and a greater agenda so uh you've
41:11
talked now about hindutva and Modi and uh the RSS uh and and of course um there is a nazification
Dangers of Modi’s ideology
41:20
of of the let's say the Indian identity um just talk us through that what is it about Modi and
41:26
his IDE ideology that's particularly problematic for for kashmiris not just for kashmiris but for
41:34
every Muslim every Muslim and not just limited to the subcontinent I will go so far as to say even
41:40
all the way up to Saudi Arabia I mean regardless of what we think of Saudi Arabia but the Muslims there should also be concerned the problem is that you know again I'm I'm going to challenge
41:49
you on this and say if you understand Zionism you should understand Hindu that's the end of this I
41:54
mean the question is over that's my answer I shouldn't need to explain it more than that
42:00
because honestly as much as I have studied read researched on hindutva there is very very very
42:09
little to make it different to Israeli Zionism they believe in the same thing their relationship
42:15
is is phenomenal I mean there was a time where India uh were supporters of the Palestinian
42:23
statehood and condemned Israel yet behind closed doors were taking support from Israel against their War uh for their war against China that relationship has always been there so overtly
42:34
it's been very different but covertly it's always been the same their agenda is to eliminate the
42:39
Muslims their agenda is to create a um a one party One Nation one ruler uh uh system because they
42:46
believe they are the chosen race I mean why are the zionists doing what they do and what is their agenda how far will they what are they willing to sacrifice for it what are the influences that
42:56
the zionists have no different to the Indians but again where Israel have failed India have
43:02
succeeded now you may say that Israel have not failed I tell you they failed because everybody knows what they're doing I tell you they failed because they've been exposed at every uh corner
43:12
at every step they've been exposed the speed at which that they were pushing their propaganda twice as fast it was being countered not by States but by you by Me by everybody by the
43:22
Joe public so that's where India are successful and will continue to be successful so the threat
43:30
that people need to understand is that it is against Islam they've declared it openly it
43:35
isn't a secret it never was a secret they're proud enough to I mean so with such great pride they
43:43
with their chests out they say this is what our agenda is create concentration camps against the Muslims and minorities eliminate the dalits and the Christians on Christmas Day what they did to
43:53
the Christians fine we're Muslims and we weep for ourselves but my God if anybody Christian that's
43:59
watching this look at what is happening to your own Brethren inside India but again it may be a race problem because you know they're brown so therefore they don't really matter there
44:07
are so many complexities to to the subcontinent especially when it comes to the RSS agenda the the
44:12
Hindu agenda the Zionist agenda and we should be comfortable enough to say the Hindu Zionist agenda
44:18
to make sure people understand it is one and the same thing colors may be different but the people are the same the world must be prepared uh for fascism 2.0 we thought that we got rid of Hitler
44:30
it was only reborn in the RSS and they've been Bing their time they've been biing their time
44:35
for a 100 years and they've started to implement all of those policies today the ca the NRC bills
44:42
citizenship citizens Amendment ship Act and the national register of citizens the way that they've created particularly Muslims and other minorities as second class citizens to the extent that they
44:51
created concentration camps in in Assam so what are we waiting for why doesn't anybody know about
44:58
this I mean are we literally waiting for another Holocaust because it's already happened in Kashmir
45:03
it's happened in many many places inside India that's the Muslims around the world seem to be
45:08
indifferent to us why is that what other the tentacles uh of the the reach of this hinded
Reach of Hindutva ideology
45:14
ideology I note that here in the west there seems to be a a very cozy relationship between the Modi
45:21
government and Trump and Modi government and and you know the the British government here and and
45:27
across uh Western Cut Nations there isn't this alarm at um this you know this rise of fascism in
45:35
in in India in fact uh the news very very rarely carries stories of of uh the lynchings and the
45:43
militarization of of Kashmir and the rapes and and and you know the other horrible crimes that take
45:48
place there so what is that relationship between Western capitals and and Mii post 911 it comes
45:57
I keep reemphasizing this because I think it was a pivotal time it's when India were able to present itself as a proxy for the West in the subcontinent because they they the West wanted somebody against
46:08
China uh it wasn't going to be Pakistan because Pakistan and China have a phenomenal relationship
46:14
um but you also have to remember the rise of imperialism uh in this day and age again the
46:21
American imperialism has always been there it's never really died died down the Russians want the
46:26
old USSR back we can see what they're doing with the Ukraine yeah the Chinese and their obsession
46:33
with Taiwan um the British and they're meddling everywhere across the world of course India wants
46:41
a piece of that pie they've positioned themselves very well and very successfully as authorities in
46:47
the subcontinent to no longer be proxies but be the main players so when we think about Mii
46:57
and and uh the relationship that he has with the West he's continued that relationship where he's
47:04
no longer just a proxy for the west but he's now telling them that we can offer support to you for
47:11
your things for what you need to do be it economic look India is one of the largest uh um markets in
47:18
the world and also labor class in the world after the war that the West had against China and the
47:26
Chinese losing a lot of their manufacturing plants where did all that manufacturing go to it went to
47:32
India it happened by Design the Indians are very clever they play the long game um you know I think
47:39
it was maybe Churchill or it was Lord mountbatten that said that you can say what you want about the Indians they have a lot of a lot of flaws but one thing they're very good at is they're very good at
47:47
being scap fants and the Indian government have been siap fans for so long that they've managed
47:53
to kind of turn the tables look at it this way can you imagine somebody calling the prime
47:58
minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as their son-in-law I mean
48:04
culturally that's putting somebody underneath your shoe as being submissive when Narendra
48:11
Modi calls Rishi sunak his son-in-law and Rishi sunak says yes sir I mean really the tables have
48:18
turned that's the situation that we're in when Indian spies have been caught inq and then return
48:27
safely when Indian spies in Germany have been caught and not been charged when the assassination
48:32
of hard Singh ner in Canada and no consequence of that was a seek separatist leader seek separatist
48:39
exactly and then again the attempt in New York in London um in other in Pakistan more than 20
48:48
Kashmir uh leaders were assassinated there has been no response I mean when when the zionists
48:55
did it do you remember in I think it was Dubai where they assassinated somebody yes there was a big hhaa when and that was one or two I think in terms of assassination of Palestinians uh um
49:07
on that kind of level on that kind of in that style it's only been a few times the Indians
49:13
have been doing it regularly yeah not only have we not heard about it but when governments have
49:18
been approached and it's been submitted that you know this is a case this is a transnational repressive repression case they don't not only do they not take it up if they take it up it's
49:27
being dumped the next day because of the power of India so going back to the point India are in a
49:35
position in a very strong position where they can I don't want to use the term dictating position
49:43
but they are in a better negotiating position I mean like I said they they were able to tell the West you know leave us alone we don't need to put sanctions on Russia on crude oil what are
49:52
you going to do about it and then literally nobody does anything about it so they're acting with imp literal impunity um do you fear for yourself I mean you're you're outspoken you live here
Muzzammil Targeted?
50:03
in Britain and you travel to the United Nations and you you speak for uh the Kashmir people um
50:11
do you Fe that uh you can be targeted or have you been targeted by the Indian government people are
50:17
targeted in different ways um sometimes it's physical a few months ago I was there was an
50:22
attempt to attack me I suffered a broken rib um alhamd I was able to return the favor by uh
50:29
I don't want to say what I did just in case I implicate myself in a court case um but uh the
50:34
answer was was justifiably so um there are other ways that we suffer um our families no longer
50:40
communicate with us because they are arrested or assassinated for being in communication with us friends no longer are friends um I can no longer travel back I'm on a hit list I'm on a Black List
50:53
um there's been an I've heard there is been an attempt to extradite me um so there are things
51:00
that happen am I afraid a Muslim is only afraid of his so the only thing that I'm genuinely afraid of
51:12
is will I be able to face my Lord and say to him that I did everything that I could in my power to
51:18
liberate Muslims not just in Kashmir but around the world I gave my time to the Palestinians I gave my time to the rohinga I gave my time to the syrians I gave my time to the kashmiris but
51:27
was I be was I able to do them Justice give them Justice and do justice for myself that is what
51:35
I'm afraid of very few things that I'm afraid of in this life you know people talk about spiders and snakes I'm terrified of dying not because it's the end of me but because I don't know I
51:48
have no guarantee that I will uh smell even the gates of Jenna that's what I'm afraid of have I
51:56
done enough to attain that I understand that the Indian government they uh prohibit your social
52:03
media posts in in India and in Kashmir and uh your voice is banned is that right I'm the new
52:09
Jerry Adams really yeah so my voice they detect my voice they detect my face and they detect certain
52:15
I don't know how how they're doing this yeah so anybody and it's not just if I share it if anybody
52:21
else shares it the Indian government sends them a message through the social media platform and
52:27
says that um this is a criminal offense so yeah this is the new reality this is what we're facing
52:34
now yeah now for today's interview mam um I think it's fair to say you've been quite angry with the
Keep talking about Kashmir
52:41
response from the Muslim communities around the world um is it not justified I I think it is very
52:47
much Justified alhamdulillah at least at least you agree with me I I I certainly do agree with you it certainly is Justified and you know I I want need to question you know once oneself about
52:57
how much we raise Kashmir I mean we we had a few shows on it in the past but how much we've made
53:03
it a a a a a regular theme um and inshah going forward we want to do that um but um how do we
53:11
remedy this like in your mind how do we make sure that uh within the Muslim communities especially
53:17
here in the west where we do have a voice that we continue consistently raise the issue of Kashmir
53:23
uh on our agenda we start with you we start with the thinking Muslim podcast we start by giving
53:31
platform to the indigenous folk of Kashmir doesn't have to be the indigen but at least you talk about
53:36
those issues you talk about not just about the violence being perpetuated on the Muslims but also talk about what the oppressor is you know sometimes I I think to myself maybe we can have
53:45
a discussion about this at some point that as Muslims Are we more concerned about the suffering
53:51
of Muslims or are we more concerned about having a hate figure to hate against to fight against
53:57
it's a very strange question but sometimes I don't I think that there may be a distinction that
54:05
more sometimes people need an authority to fight against and other people need to feel solidarity
54:11
with an oppressed yeah and once we figure that out I think we need to talk to other people
54:17
uh um other organizations particularly those organizations in the United Kingdom that claim to represent Muslim communities without having to necessarily name them but ' been around long
54:27
enough they haven't done their uh uh ample they haven't done ample work for Kashmir they've done
54:32
it for everybody else but not for us and before we ask them I think as angry and as as bitter
54:38
as many kashmiris are and I'll I won't speak on behal of them I'll speak about myself as angry and as bitter I may be I still have hope because I saw how the Muslim Community came together for
54:49
all the other Muslim conflicts around the world and it's not even just the Muslim conflicts even in the United Kingdom how much Muslims give to for example the food Banks how much they helped during
54:57
the times of Co we aren't just the Muslims for Muslims we are Muslims for everybody so if we are
55:03
for everybody Kashmir are also Muslims our heart bleeds the same way it bleeds for you as well the
55:10
same way it bleeds for the Palestinians all we ask is that that even if you don't bleed for us at least keep us in your prayers you know there is um there's a Hadith I think don't quote me on
55:21
this correct me if I'm wrong that um when you have knowledge when you have and you don't act upon it
55:29
what is the name of that person I know what the English word is it's called a hypocrite but in in
55:35
the Arabic term it is so much more stronger that even I hesitate to use the term because it is so
55:41
heavy and I don't want Muslims to fall into that category I don't want the mothers on the day of to
55:48
say that you were all Hypocrites when I cried out to the Muslim world you did nothing when M came
55:54
here and spoke to Muhammad Jal and and and talked to the audience and told them about Kashmir that you still did nothing you're not answerable to me you're going to be answerable to that mother
56:02
that's still looking for her son after 30 years H for example you're still going to be answerable to
56:10
matu Who had who was killed with a tear gas shot to the head and his parents don't know what to do
56:16
with themselves he was the only son in the family or the young girl that I met many many years ago
56:22
that was a mute because she had witnessed her entire family being either killed or raped and she
56:27
was a mute for 10 or 12 years you're answerable to her so the the the res it's not resentment
56:36
it's just frustration that what does it take for Muslims to be fair across the board that includes
56:43
Kashmir what is it it's a genuine question do we need to bleach our skin maybe color our eyes speak
56:51
a different way is it our AA is it our clo what is it what is it about the kashmiri Muslims that
56:59
you cannot identify with do you believe you're going to ever return to Kashmir in your lifetime I
57:06
learned something from my father and he said to me when somebody asked him the same thing and he he
57:13
gave an answer but then he said to me in private he said if you feel that you are going to liberate or I feel that I am going to liberate Kashmir in my lifetime I must be the most arrogant fool that
57:22
has ever existed we hope for it we work towards it but we lay the foundations for the Next Generation
57:30
we don't want them to start from scratch again I may hope for a liberated Kash in my lifetime but
57:37
I'm preparing that if it doesn't happen at least the tools should exist the work that has already
57:44
been done that you can stand on their shoulders and not have to startop from scratch again we are products of our elders uh I can't speak on your behalf but I'll definitely speak on my behalf I'm
57:55
a product of the people before me yes I am only be I am only able to do what I can do or speak
58:01
the way that I can speak or do the activism that I do for not just for Kashmir but anything because of uh um Scholars and activists before us that have been here for the last 30 40 50 years again
58:13
without necessarily naming names because it would be unfair for if I miss anybody out but they've
58:18
been around it's on their shoulders that we are standing today which means that we need to allow the Next Generation to stand on our shoulders once we're gone as well so what does a liberated
Vision for liberated Kashmir
58:27
Kashmir look like I mean an independent state or a state very similar to aad Kashmir attached
58:32
to Pakistan doesn't matter as long as it's not occupied we the people of Kashmir have come to a point where we say that anything is fine anything is fine as long as we are no longer occupied and
58:44
as long as we our Muslim identity is protected protected now I keep on saying this because our masjids have become Mand they are now actively turning our masjids into Manders into Hindu
58:54
temples the daily morning prayer that used to be in uru or in Arabic is now being turned into in
58:59
into the Hindu language the history that we were taught is now into Hindu mythology the identity
59:06
of Kashmir is being replaced with Hinduism and the Hindu hindutva people are too scared to speak in
59:13
the Kashmir language just a couple of days ago this is in the month of Ramadan just a couple of days ago two imams were kidnapped from the Masid preventing the prayer for what reason nobody knows
59:25
and just a few a few weeks before Ramadan a young man driving his truck a daily wager a laborer was
59:31
shot was shot dead for no reason there has been no accountability so when you ask what do we foresee
59:37
what do we want as an end solution you wouldn't ask that for the Palestinians why would you ask that to Kashmir it's just liberation of our land liberation of our identity to allow us to preserve
59:48
our identity to be able to pray five times a day to read the Quran and not have moodi or um
59:56
a give their version of Islam on which by the way they have tried they are manufacturing their own
1:00:03
form of Islam and trying to impose it upon us so what do we want we want to preserve our identity
Kashmir’s beauty
1:00:09
I started off with the quote from uh that's connected to jahangir um uh the mul Emperor
1:00:18
who said that um if there was a place on Earth it would be here it be here it be here um what
1:00:24
is it if there was a heaven on Earth what is it about uh Kashmir that makes it such a delightful
1:00:30
place the mountains the trees the air the people the language the cuisine the art the history the
1:00:40
mids the the the the uh um just everything we were part of the silk rout we have a 5,000 year history
1:00:52
um it's rich in Heritage in culture I mean a lot of it has of course been lost a lot of it is being
1:01:00
re re um rebranded by India but those of us that know or remember or have studied the history of
1:01:09
Kashmir goes as far back as the times of Alexander the Great where some argue that even he visited
1:01:16
Kashmir at one point or his armies did at least um they claimed that the Lost tribe of Israel is in
1:01:21
Kashmir um so there is so much history for rightly or wrongly the reason why it was considered to be
1:01:29
paralyzed because of the weather the welcoming nature of the people which has also been our downfall because you're same as the Palestinians but it's everything everything Muhammad Jalal you
1:01:42
must visit Kashmir and you will see for yourself you know uh they call it the Switzerland of Asia I
1:01:48
tell you the Switzerland is Kashmir it's the other way around in fact a long time ago uh the United
1:01:55
Nations I think it was the United Nations or maybe it was the the what was before the United Nations
1:02:00
the world league na the League of Nations somebody said that if you want to look at the epitome of
1:02:06
communal Harmony look at Kashmir so was one of the best places for everything the temperature
1:02:15
the culture the Heritage the history the food I keep on going about food because it's Ramadan but genuinely the food if anybody's watching just look up wwan look it up and let your mouth melt
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