Ep 182. - What next for US Muslims? With Imam Tom Facchine and Mobeen Vaid

November 27, 2024 Muhammad Jalal

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Now that the US elections are over, I want to explore deeper issues today with my guests. Is political participation really the principal way by which we are going to proceed, and who best should be charged from within us to undertake this task? Some have argued that to progress, we have to play the ‘long game’ and adopt the Zionist prototype of influence.

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Read Muhammad Jalal's full article here: https://jalalayn.substack.com/p/harris-genocide-must-come-at-a-political
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation

Introduction

0:00

the greatest risk of all would be to demonstrate that we have no ability whatsoever to punish genocide you know the neocon question is a really

0:09

interesting one this Empire is in trouble internally the US Empire it's a grift it's

0:15

a pay-to-play system that's how this thing works it seems like the Muslim Community is maturing and welcome to the thinking Muslim today I've got very special guests Imam tomini and mabin

0:34

vade who are joining us from the United States a very early morning for you guys so for for joining

0:40

me for having us it's always a pleasure well it's it's wonderful to have you with us now um I want

0:48

today to be uh really a free flowing conversation between us about I suppose the more deeper

0:54

questions with strategic and tactical questions post election Ian you've been through uh what what

1:00

is really a few months good number of months of of campaigning and you took both of you took certain

1:07

positions on the election campaign and and now it's time to take a step back and to think ahead

1:14

and think about where the Muslim Community is in America um I mean I've got I've got some some

1:19

questions that I want answered about the Tactical decisions that were made during the election campaign but also maybe some more deeper questions like how do we navigate our Islamic obligations

1:30

uh within sort of this within the constant demands of a secular society or secular polity um and um

1:39

whether really political participation can procure the types of results we all believe

1:44

or we think it can give us as a Muslim Community um I also want to talk about uh the Zionist Lobby

1:52

and how many Muslims May uh refer to Zionism or at least the tactics of the Zionist Lobby

2:00

as a model for our form of political participation and then there's a discussion about Trump's

2:06

America uh as you know I had a conversation with Sami HDI recently about Trump's America but I

2:11

think there are some questions that are that yet we require answers to and and these are I suppose

2:18

these are questions about Will trump be favorable towards Muslims domestically and internationally

2:25

and I suspect the juries out on that uh but also questions about whether Trump reflects something

2:31

genuinely new in American society does he is he is he a comprehensive departure from that

2:39

1945 liberal World Order globalist uh consensus that uh both parties uh subscribed to uh for for

2:49

the last few decades uh so look jazak thank you very much there's a lot to talk through today uh

Satisfied with results?

2:55

and I suppose let's start with the backdrop of the US elections well at least the US elections are behind us Imam Tom fakini I mean I think you were at the Forefront I think it's fair

3:06

to say in the conversations that were had within the Muslim Community about how we should proceed

3:14

during those elections and at the very base of that conversation was to punish uh Kamala Harris

3:21

are you satisfied with the result and the part the Muslim Community played in in gaining that result

3:29

alhamdulillah that's a great question to start out with I think in general uh I am satisfied why do

3:36

I say that because my my main goal or maybe start with my main fear was that the Muslim

3:44

Community would Buckle that they would get cold feet at the end and they would run back to the Democrats if I if we were thinking and we were making up scenarios before the election happened

3:54

what would be the worst case scenario for Muslim political power it would be to make a whole bunch

4:00

of noise uh about punishing genocide and then for Muslims to chicken out and to run back to Harris

4:08

and to essentially give her promotion promoting her from vice president to president for being

4:15

part of the administration that is responsible for the current genocide that was the worst case scenario um when it comes to building power when it comes to being taken seriously when it comes to

4:25

political maturation and more and so that didn't happen and you know you even saw groups like the

4:33

CMO some people don't know the United States Council of Muslim organizations the largest Council of Muslim organizations in the US they represent care and mass and nna and mana and

4:44

Mauna and other major organizations like that they released a an endorsement and even though

4:51

even you know we have to I think look at where our wins are maybe somebody could argue that their

4:59

endorsement was suboptimal essentially they come out with a statement saying do not vote for either

5:07

Harris or for Trump uh vote for any of the third parties some people would say well that's kind

5:13

of weak and there's an argument to that however I think it we what we should appreciate is that

5:18

groups like care and all the other nonprofits in the Muslim space right now understand very

5:24

well that their nonprofit status can be revoked under Trump presidency uh very easily and so I

5:32

I do respect that that was not a um a a riskless statement to make for them to make it ran against

5:40

something of their their immediate existential interests so I think that the fact that that

5:46

those major organizations came out and gave such a statement running UPS the elections and that by

5:53

and large we always knew that there was going to be some Muslims that would vote Harris a lot more Muslims voted Trump than we initially uh planned for but the the fact that the major

6:05

orgs that have the most credibility and represent the community the best did not Buckle I think is a

6:14

huge Testament to progress and I I'll be you know I am an optimist but cautiously optimistic that

6:22

we are starting to develop and starting to mature a little bit politically so in that sense yes we

6:29

punished genocide we did what we set out to do we understood there would be risks we understood what

6:35

we were up against with the Trump presidency we understand you know the annexation of the West Bank though it's already largely annexed de facto anyway we understand you know that Trump has

6:45

terrible neocons that might and it seems like are having a very large influence though mine

6:50

probably knows more about that than I do um it there's many risks to a trump presidency but the

6:56

greatest risk of all would be to demonstrate that we have no ability whatsoever to punish genocide

7:03

and therefore we would be sitting ducks no matter what administration was in power so if that's our

7:09

if that's my metric then I'm saying that yes it is the first step and we we have to be happy about that IM man time I mean that's that's really interesting and and um there is this apprehension

Will Trump be a problem?

7:20

I suppose mine in American society that yes we punished uh a genocider and certainly Kamala

7:27

Harris and the Democrats uated this horrible genocide um but in a sense Trump is going to

7:35

continue that with with Vigor but also Trump comes as I think Imam Tom alluded to Trump comes with

7:42

his own problems when it comes to Muslim Community especially domestically I mean how do you how do

7:47

you evaluate those risks that Trump may give or bring to the Muslim Community ald it's difficult

7:56

it's difficult because what we're witnessing in of us uh domestically is is a very large political

8:03

realignment within conservative ranks um obviously neither candidate was risk-free neither candidate

8:12

was risk-free um with Trump there are challenges and opportunities for the Muslim Community both

8:19

domestically and abroad when it comes to his International agenda it remains to be seen how

8:26

many of his campaign promises translate anything material this in many ways is reflective of what

8:33

happened in the first Trump presidency um one of the things that's interesting in my mind

8:39

if you go back and look at the first time he won presidency and his campaigning he ran on

8:46

a platform of anti-immigration that was really the issue that drove his victory the first time

8:54

around and a lot of what the media covered were his comments and sentiments especially some of

9:00

the more Brazen bombastic sometimes even bigoted remarks about rapists and gang members and drug

9:07

cartels coming across the border it was that type of fear and hysteria that he drew on to

9:13

build up his support base this time around his campaign was not centered on immigration

9:22

the way it was in the time even the economy did not play a central role in this campaign

9:30

arguably one of the biggest issues he ran on was an open opposition to endless Wars in opposition

9:38

to the neocon military-industrial complex uh one of the biggest stories that was covered

9:46

to scandalize Trump their attempt to scandalize Trump uh during the last week of the uh before

9:53

the election were comments he made criticizing Liz Cheney where he said she thinks she's so tough why

10:01

don't we send her out give her some guns let's see how tough she is when she's in the middle of

10:08

battle and she has guns pointed at her and you had number of mainstream liberal media Outlets

10:16

that misconstrued that comment deliberately and representatives Trump calling for her to be killed

10:24

right but never obviously it didn't it didn't move the needle a whole lot amongst the electorate

10:30

but that type of open animosity and hostility to The neocon Establishment to Dick Cheney and

10:37

Liz Cheney who he was attacking as publicly as anyone can attack Dick Cheney was once a

10:44

symbol of conservatism virtually Untouchable 20 years ago uh dick Chen was arguably the most

10:52

credible figure amongst right-wing Republicans in this country um more than Donald Rumsfeld

10:59

people on the ground especially Heartland America really admired Dick Cheney more than George Bush

11:06

and to see him repudiating the bush Cheney Doctrine in such an explicit way I think was

11:13

quite shocking to a lot of people and to see the success that he had with it not only more broadly

11:18

amongst broad plurality of the American public but with Republicans themselves is suggestive

11:25

of really deep shifts within um just conservative ranks across the board and what conservatism could

11:32

potentially mean in the next 5 to 10 years again there are really open questions as to how all

11:37

of that's going to translate first time around Donald Trump did not run on his foreign policy

11:43

credentials very strongly um you know he described the Iraq War as a disaster but that was a sort of

11:49

perfunctory comment as part of his larger platform last time around it wasn't a centerpiece he

11:55

obviously wasn't a dove at all when it came to his foreign policy very interventionist um this time

12:02

around he's he's appointed a bit of a mixed bag um so I I think I I think like I said it's it's

12:10

still sort of up in the air question even when it comes to American Muslims domestically this time

12:16

around he ran a much more open campaign in trying to connect with the American Muslim Community he

12:22

boasted his support from the Muslims for Trump Coalition he stood alongside those imams in his

12:30

victory speech he mentioned Muslims for Trump we have never in American history seen a president

12:35

come out publicly proud of Muslim support in this way yeah and so and so I don't know is this again

12:44

I'm not I'm not naive to the world of politics and the way people are instrumentalized I'm not necessarily saying all those decisions on their part was prudent I'm simply saying that the idea

12:54

that what we're invariably going to see is a sort of Maxim anti-muslim bigotry materialized into or

13:03

manifested into different political policies that that may not necessarily be the case right I I

13:09

don't think people should expect all of their worst fears to come true yeah in the next four years because you never know what's going to happen with Trump right and you really don't

13:17

know what's going to happen on the ground to destabilize our domestic order because he is a bit of a Chaos Agent as well it's interesting and I think uh there's a lot that we can't yet

Trump vs the globalists?

13:27

anticipate but can can we focus on Imam Tom uh what mabine raised there about uh Trump's

13:34

foreign policy agenda now um it is fair to say that even in 2016 Donald Trump did talk

13:40

about uh The globalist Establishment the liberal interventionist and why he wanted to move away

13:47

from that form of uh American foreign policy and there was um you know there are discussions about

13:55

how when Trump was in power he didn't start any new Wars in fact he drew down uh in Afghanistan

14:00

and in Syria and uh he focused his attention more on uh the Far East rather than the Middle East

14:08

um China rather than the Muslim world uh I just wonder whether uh if we were to draw a ven diagram

14:17

you know the Democrats would be these liberal interventionists the conservative Republicans would be these neocons you know typified by Cheney and and the Bush Administration and and others um

14:29

is Donald Trump in outside of that schema in your mind or is there still an overlap

14:36

between the Donald Trump agenda and the uh neocon liberal interventionist agenda of the left and

14:44

right that's a great question and I I really like the way mine uh framed everything in his

14:50

last response because I think that one of the things that we need to work on I just thinking about for the audience's uh benefit here is our imag of what we're doing and some of the things

15:01

that we have to keep track of right so a lot of times when people they they start paying attention

15:07

to an election that's that's imminent they are operating with a framework that is dated or does

15:14

not reflect the real movements that have been happening both on the left and the right since

15:20

the last time the election rolled around a lot of the things that people brought up regarding Trump and the right or the Republican Party were valid in 2016 they weren't necessarily

15:29

in 2024 so it's really actually essential I would say for must on political strategy to

15:36

pay attention to the shifts on the right and the shifts on the left right and like and to notice

15:42

where things are headed and that's how you are able to realize the opportunities that lay before

15:49

you because just like M said every single thing is risk and opportunity risk and opportunity in politics you deal with scenarios you deal with risks and opportunities there's no situation

15:59

where you're certain that anything's going to happen you really just want to attempt to steer something it's like a glacier it's moving you do not have complete control over the glacier but

16:08

maybe if you put this barrier up here or you open up this pathway here maybe you're able to shift

16:13

a little bit the trajectory of the way that the glacier is Flowing so it's really interesting to

16:19

see the shifts that have happened in the last 20 years on the right um I know again this is

16:24

something m is has more knowledge about sort of the intelligencia on the right and the different

16:29

discursive movements but to register the change from the um the incumbency and the hegemony of the

16:38

neocons to the Tea Party Movement and what the Tea Party Movement did to the Republican party to now

16:45

the current situation where yeah a lot of really important things that were not contested before

16:52

are now contested and even if like this is why it's more important to ask these questions than

16:58

like well what's going to do sometimes you need to go from if you're going to like make a sequence of

17:04

of interventions you have to go from something being consensus to something being contested and

17:11

then you go from something being contested to the thing that you're stumping for or advocating for

17:16

seeming like common sense self-evident and these sorts of things so the fact that the Overton window has shifted so much specifically on Palestine but also on the US's role abroad

17:29

um is definitely an opportunity for Muslims to thoughtfully engage in and even though there's

17:36

no Cy um in a lot of different directions so where does Trump stand is it relevant

17:42

where Trump stands right that's another question that that Trump has his own agenda maybe maybe

17:49

he's got some donors that he has to please maybe he's concerned about his legacy maybe he's more

17:55

transactional and egotistical right he might not have a concrete agenda he might be feeling people

18:01

out and feeling out what the public sentiment is going to be I I do tend to think my read

18:08

on Trump is that Trump is more of an an egotist than anything else that he is more into himself

18:16

and his own legacy than an ideologue I do not think that Trump was an ideologue so you don't

America First Ideology?

18:21

you don't believe that um make America great again America first um sums up an ideology

18:29

it it's it's rather a good tactical I don't know electoral Ploy I think that there is a

18:34

base for America first I think that there are a lot of conservative Americans that are America first and you could make a typology of people on the right uh that America First would be a

18:58

has this he's indicated that he wants to be seen as some sort of big dealmaker right he he

19:04

indicated that in his last time around so that's the thing if you're dealing with somebody who's

19:10

not an ideologue they're more of a transactional then it becomes a little bit less relevant what

19:15

their agenda is and it becomes more relevant what pressure can you exert on that person in order

19:23

to attempt to change or influence their behavior at the end of the day when it comes to strategic

19:28

political thinking you are attempting to change the behavior of political actors and you need to

19:34

reverse engineer what do we have to do to achieve the exchange in ex political actor so we need to

19:43

think as a as a Muslim Community now okay out of all the possibilities that exist Trump could go this way Trump could go that way Trump could go that way and as others have pointed out it's not

19:52

even a a done deal when Trump appoints neocons look at what he did to Bolton and Pompeo last

19:58

time he was in he appointed neocons and and he completely undermined them right so some people

20:05

are looking like oh there we told you right like Trump's just as bad he appointed so and so okay

20:10

well yeah maybe but Chaos Agent as will being said Trump is a Chaos Agent he is extremely Petty

20:18

he sets people against each other he undermines people um it's this isn't arithmetic it's not a

20:24

linear sort of endeavor here so we need to just think about what are the interventions that we

20:31

can make in order to attempt to shift where things are going I hope I didn't duck your question but

Trumps cabinet

20:37

no it's it's it's a good answer and maim would you like to come back on that yeah no I'll just add a

20:42

few things there I think one of the things that Trump does in destabilizing the domestic or the

20:48

domestic order is that he inflames a lot of latent tensions that makes it very difficult to actually

20:55

operate effectively internationally because you're constantly mired and controversy on the ground so

21:01

if you think about what we could see in the near term with a trump presidency they could

21:06

cause a lot of angst with people on the ground one you have this the department of government efficiency right being headed by Elon Musk and beuck receiving a lot of attention they're

21:17

speaking very openly about cutting tremendous number of government jobs and scaling down the

21:23

entire size of the federal government including the Department of Defense and that's hefel who's

21:29

been nominated to be the Secretary of Defense it's been a huge critic of the defense overspend a lot

21:36

of attentions being placed on the number of times the dod has failed internal Financial audits what

21:42

all that means remains to be seen But if you're talking about Mass layoffs across the government and reduced spend in the dod you're going to have a lot of consternation on your hands you

21:52

have a number of figures that are extremely partisan and polarizing that are being nomin

21:58

ated to Physicians people like RFK at the HHS Dr o now taking over CMS um Linda McMahon as the

22:07

head of uh the Secretary of Education again these these can all very quickly materialize into really

22:17

really active domestic struggles and fights on the ground that we could see so when you talk about

22:23

the type of chaos you might introduce the next 3 to six months domestically it could be substantial

22:29

right you think about his first presidency and all of the protests that were taking place on the ground again it's really difficult to execute Foreign Wars effectively when you're dealing with

22:39

all of this in some ways you're preoccupied with with what's going on in your own borders T Tom's

22:44

Point uh you know the neocon question is a really interesting one when it comes to the

22:50

America First agenda if you look Donald Trump towards the end of his campaign was campaigning

22:58

alongside the neocons Mike Pompeo was part of his administration last time Secretary of State uh

23:05

Mike Pompeo was with him on the campaign Trail um Mike Pompeo reportedly lost about 100 pounds since

23:14

the last time he was with Trump you know over the past four years Trump's when he was campaigning

23:19

and speaking could not stop talking about how great Pompeo looked and how you know he's lost so

23:27

much weight this that he really liked Mike Pompeo it was very clear that yeah he he makes very vain

23:34

decisions at times um but he liked M Mike Pompeo that much was clear the early rumors as well were

23:41

that um Nikki Haley was going to be part of a trump Administration same way she was last time

23:47

first week after the election he tweets out and this is very rare right presidents typically don't issue any statements about people who aren't going to be part of their Administration they typically

23:57

only announce people who are going to be part of them and he pushes out a statement saying Nikki

24:03

Haley and Mike Pompeo are not going to be part of my Administration you have a popular libertarian

24:09

comic Named Dave Smith who has over half million followers online on Twitter he has been one of the

24:16

biggest voices against Israel and has conducted and participated in more than one debate including

24:23

against Dennis Prager on the question of Israel and critic izing Israel for its conduct against

24:31

Palestinians so he's a very interesting voice to follow on that topic overall he's Jewish

24:37

but very principled and quite good on the topic not perfect but very good I think on balance um

24:44

he had a bit of a rant that went viral that he did against militarism the military-industrial complex

24:52

Foreign Wars that video not only goes viral in it's short clip um it is Amplified by Elon Musk

25:02

who is in Trump's Inner Circle and Don Jr Donald Trump's son who says absolutely right we need to

25:11

make sure that we keep the neocons at Bay and don't allow them in this Administration Charlie

25:17

Kirk who's part of the Inner Circle responds to that comment as well supporting it so now

25:23

you have all these people who are part of Trump's Inner Circle who are saying we need to keep the

25:28

cons out um when Trump starts forming his cabinet and assigning people you have early rumors about

25:36

well who's he going to nominate for Secretary of State uh the Marco Rubio rumor comes out

25:42

one day and you have people literally on Twitter congratulating Marco ruo Trump on his official

25:50

truth social platform does not issue a statement about Marco rupia and he doesn't announce it

25:59

over two days go by with no announcement and in the meantime media Outlets have already

26:05

announced it you have many many people have come out celebrating this announcement Ben Shapiro and

26:10

others Trump still hasn't announced it when he finally announces Marco Rubio he simultaneously

26:17

announces Tulsi gabard as a Director of National Intelligence and he does them both simultaneously

26:23

which tells you there must have been and widely reported huge internal fights over the Marco Ruby

26:29

appointment Tulsi gabard has a reputation of being anti-war during Trump's first Administration she

26:36

was a heavy critic of trump she said that Trump did not govern as someone who was against endless

26:42

Wars she criticized him for killing Kimani and she said it was illegal and unjustified very difficult

26:52

positions to take she came out on those types of issues is she going to continue who knows right Michael Tracy has documented quite extensively the types of flip-flops she's capable of making in in

27:02

the interest of you know political advancement nevertheless I think there's a symbolic and

27:09

political significance to some of these choices and the way in which we're seeing the machinations

27:18

of these decisions what's going on behind the scenes and what's coming out in front of us alongside that I mean that's really really interesting um I I wonder so that's the politics

27:29

of it all and um as we know things are unfolding and um nothing's very clear when it comes to

US Empire in trouble?

27:36

Donald Trump and and the way he acts and as you I think Imam Tom quite rightly pointed out uh even

27:41

those neocons those militarists in these first Administration some of them were many of them were

27:47

removed from Power especially uh if we think about General Kelly and and Trump's decision unilateral

27:54

decision almost to remove troops from Syria um the uh defense secretary at the time was uh unaware of

28:02

that decision before it was announced so I think he's a material person but I want to ask about the

28:07

deeper strains within American society now we on the thinking mus we frame America and I think you

28:16

both have done this in in your own way we frame America as as an Empire and um uh this Empire is

28:23

in trouble internally uh the uh the the that those who had historically supported this Empire and its

28:33

policies and its external activity around the world from 1945 onwards the American population

28:39

today uh you can see enormous strains and tensions within that population so Imam Tom I can you in a

28:47

way just just outline the those tensions that exist in American society uh amongst the left

28:54

and the right and and whether we're seeing you know whether there is an intellectual bulcan iation almost of American society now where you're you you know you've got um divisions that are so

29:06

accute uh American citizens no longer see eye to eye on some of the fundamentals that will be

29:11

required to uphold this Empire yeah that's a good question I think I I'll tackle it twofold uh put

29:19

on my Carl March hat and Beal with the base and then the super structure because I do think just beyond you know people's ideological leaning or convictions you have really um a population that

29:33

has been squeezed that this Empire business has exploited and downgraded the quality of life of

29:43

the vast majority of American people in really acute ways it was funny when I visited you in

29:49

Kensington which is one of the more poch districts in London and I'm more familiar with Kensington

29:55

Philadelphia which is known as Zombie Land where you find addicts people shooting up need needles

30:01

on the ground you know fenel and tranquilizers spread everywhere that this is the America that

30:09

you you talk to people and they're like Empire what like like what is all of our um expenditures

30:17

be actually going to that the US Empire is it's a it's a grift right it is a it's a racket in this

30:28

sense that you have a very very small percentage of the population at the top that has their stocks

30:36

are in Nvidia and their stocks are in uh rathan and they're into the weapons industry they're into

30:43

the fossil fuels industry and they make a lot of money on the endless Wars and they make a lot of

30:49

money and they they base their careers on them and then the American people have been getting

30:56

poorer and poorer with no Health Care system that functions people are afraid of having to

31:03

go to the hospital in the United States one of the most common uh sources of debt is medical

31:08

debt and depending on where you're at in the country hospitals can attempt to dock your

31:14

wages or to come after you if you're not able to pay your exorbitant medical fees um college has

31:20

been completely University degrees have been completely um they follow the near neoliberal

31:28

model to the point where a university is a scam University is a scam in the United States you

31:34

tuition you're going to leave with hundreds of thousands of dollars debt and you're going

31:40

to have a degree that won't get you very much on the market um competition is is so high and jobs

31:47

availability is so low that everybody's feeling pitched unless you're in the absolute Elite in

31:53

this country everybody's feeling pinched when it comes across the board inflation food prices rents

31:59

and the prices of property like every single major thing that uh determines your quality of life and

32:06

your ease of Life Americans have been getting squeezed and squeezed and squeezed more and

32:12

more and more since probably the 50s or the 60s um it's happened slowly but there are serious cracks

32:20

there are serious cracks that make the promise of spreading democracy abroad or whatever was

32:28

the the um the ideological justification that maybe had a little bit of resonance back in the

32:34

90s and then a little bit less residents in the early 2000s it falls on deaf ears these days who

32:41

cares about spreading democracy abroad obviously that's a lie it was never what was happening but even for the people who might not be so sophisticated that they can deconstruct that

32:51

that bit of propaganda who cares and nobody this is following on more and more deaf years so if you

32:57

look at the base there's really significant challenges to the sustainability of the

33:03

American project of Empire and then if you look ideologically yes like as well that again thinking

33:10

about tracking the changes that have taken place in the last 20 25 years or even 30 years on the

33:15

left and the right everything significantly there has been one foreign policy between the Democrats

33:23

and Republicans since Clinton probably that this has been you know with the Third way Democrats

33:28

came along and they decided that they're going to lean into being uh out Republican the Republicans

33:34

and take the middle uh and that they're not going to be as distinct from the right as perhaps they

33:41

could be them the that sort of new Democratic movement and the neocons there has been very

33:48

much a consensus uh one way but the things that have shifted so we already talked about the shifts

33:55

on the right with after the Moc con the Tea Party Revolution and the different strains of American

34:00

isolationism and America First that have really I think increased and become more popular and

34:07

what are the shifts on the left the left has only gone into lgbtq ideology Dei initiatives

34:17

very heavy-handed alienating resent producing authoritarian measures and so yes people are

34:25

very divided but I see America as people extremely dissatisfied and I think that the average person

34:33

is extremely dissatisfied with the way things that are going to the point where it seems like

34:39

what the government is prioritizing and doing almost is nonsensical um which is why you have

34:46

a lot of disengagement a lot of disempowerment disenfranchisement but I do think um that these

34:51

shifts are really important I think that they they present a tremendous opportunity I think 20 years

34:57

ago you have much less chance and opportunity when it comes to making a meaningful intervention and

35:03

attempting to steer certain developments both on the left and the right right now it remains to be seen whether the left or the Democrats are going to have a meaningful introspection

35:12

due to their tremendous collapse on election day but if they do then that is also an opportunity

35:17

where does the Democratic party go from here is it going to is it sustainable to become to

35:23

remain an elitist uh Dei LG btq supporting outfit a lot of people have criticized within the left

35:33

or within the Democratic party because I know the leftists will criticize me for conflating that too but they're not as different as you might think that that they will say that um the

35:44

Democrats lost connection with the working class which is absolutely true which is absolutely true

35:49

so it remains to be seen do they take this as a moment of introspection and attempts to change the

35:54

the the identity politics is now there's doubt in the identity politices whether it's going to work

36:00

there's doubt in if you can just mobilize People based off of fear or abortion and immigration

36:07

which is what what the Democrats always attempted to just bring everything back to so these might

36:12

represent tremendous opportunities going forward yeah justo um can I uh uh zoom out a little bit

Muslim’s moving forward

36:20

and and um uh can we have a conversation about uh the Muslim Community moving forward like to what

36:27

extent uh was this a an election where we punished a political party for committing

36:34

genocide and there's very little more one can do at least at a federal level at a national

36:40

level uh to move the dial uh for Islam for Muslim favorable policies uh or do the two of you see

36:49

um what was accomplished as a as almost like a springboard to something a little bit more

36:57

uh uh you know a little bit more effective in the future like is there a positive agenda here when it comes to political participation uh moving forward I mean mayine first please I I think

37:09

that it's a spring it's a potential Spring Forward to sustainable change one of the things that has

37:17

happened over the past year is that you've seen certain developments within the American Muslim Community that probably should have happened a long time ago but it required a sort of Social and

37:31

communal crisis to bring them together so you're beginning to see more institutional collaboration

37:41

in ways that we haven't in the past we're starting to see the conscientious deliberation of how

37:49

Muslims can more effectively acquire power in this country and use the type of economic

37:58

weight that they possess to advance their interests so you're seeing more people come

38:04

together within the tech space you're seeing Venture Capital grow in the Muslim Community

38:10

you're seeing a growth in entrepreneurship Asset Management um Investments you're seeing Muslims

38:18

come together within Fields like law so broader coalitions of Muslims attorneys Muslim attorneys

38:24

trying to figure out how they can participate in protecting Muslim interests when they're on

38:31

the docket you're starting to see Muslims come together in the Arts and figuring out that we

38:38

need to produce our own cultural artifacts some people may say too little too late but

38:44

nevertheless better late than never um I I think the question I I think there are a couple things

38:53

that we are continuing to see but are still a work in progress I think one is after 911 you

38:59

had a post 911 consensus that emerged within the Muslim Community response to the war on terror and

39:08

the aggressive uh National Security apparatus that was developed after that uh or alongside

39:15

that rather uh and that political consensus was essentially Democrats are offense Republicans are

39:22

not we have to vote align ourselves in a moment of existential need collectively and uniformly

39:28

with the left against the right obviously the Contours of politics has changed dramatically

39:33

since then and we're starting to see more of a realignment in political diversity within our community we are going to have to reckon with that going to for going forward we're not going to have

39:44

a conservative Community we're not going to have a liberal Community we're going to have a community that has a lot more political diversity than it's had in the past it's going to be very difficult

39:53

to produce a community that votes collectively as a block and so we tolerate people who have

39:59

radically different politics when it comes to elections again something that remains to be

40:05

seen but I think it's going to remain a source of considerable tension within our communities itself because these these political parties tend to be sources of considerable friction right people

40:15

people are very passionate about their politics um especially given the role that politics plays

40:21

how do how do we navigate that that's a challenge um but again as we we say every challenge is an

40:28

opportunity it may mean that we can begin forming different types of coalitions means we can start

40:33

participating in different types of spaces it means we can start trying to Levy our power or

40:40

the resources that we have at our disposal in ways that others haven't one of the things I've commented on and it's been something I've I've been revealing over the past few weeks is that's

40:51

perhaps a bit surprising to me is how much money it takes to influence politicians if you look at

40:58

Donald Trump's major donors I think he has three donors that gave him 100 million or more musk

41:05

Aden like some other guy I can't remember his name after that you have someone that gave 50 million

41:11

and then you get 20 million and everyone else is 10 or less uh Linda McMahon gave 20 million she's

41:16

now the Secretary of Education right um it's a pay-to-play system that's how this thing works

41:23

$10 million 510 million to advance your interest is not a crazy amount of money to put together you

41:30

know I I don't know whether it's prudent I don't know whether we should even want to play at this

41:36

level given sort of the Brazen Corruption of it all but if you think about some of the interests that Muslims could potentially advance for couple of million I think they're very achievable and I

41:48

think these are things that perhaps matter a lot more to the Muslim Community than any politician on Capitol Hill right you think about you think about issues like Imran Khan remaining in prison

42:00

and trying to affect his situation you think about things likea still being incarcerated and

42:07

trying to secure his release think about trying to reduce some of the pressure being applied to

42:13

different Muslim countries I don't think I don't think these are hard things to try to get across

42:19

the a if Muslims organize themselves and they use their Financial Resources say you know what

42:25

willing to back your campaign you're desperate for money you have a couple of million we can throw your away but here's the issue we want you to to advance and this is this is the thing that we're

42:34

looking at secure so I'm just these are these are opportunities or idea I'm not even necessarily

42:40

saying that we should I'm simply saying that this is this is the system today that seems to be how

42:45

other people are playing within it yeah no that's it's very intriguing I mean Imam Tom um in a sense

Islamic ethics?

42:52

uh that conversation May sit um slightly we may be quite uncomfortable with conversation because

43:00

it does look like a a modeling of the behavior of some of the big corporates or at least the Zionist

43:08

Lobby where you use your monetary power in order to in effect by the system I know that's not what

43:14

Med is saying but you know that's the that I could imagine that some of uh some of our our audience

43:20

will say well do we really go want to go down that road or can we maintain and and again this is you

43:26

know fra with lots of difficulties to say but can we maintain some sort of ethical standard when it

43:32

comes to uh engaging with the political system of course everything that we do is ethical but

43:38

it's also strategic I mean the F have mentioned that it's permissible to pay a Risha if you have

43:43

to pay Rish in order to extract your right and essentially the way the politics works in the United States has will being just highlighted is legalized the richual it's legalized bribery U

43:53

that's what lobbying is if we were to give a very very Frank definition L it's the LI bribery um so

44:00

there's you know it's not necessarily that this is out of bounds and I think that that is a very

44:08

important milestone in our maturation now there might be other ways and we might have to look at

44:16

the opportunities of those other waves or work on all of them simultaneously as various fronts

44:21

usually what I say dealing with because that's a very perennial question people are asking about what about a apack um yeah that's one way one way is to attempt to build something similar which we

44:34

could do M's 100% right we have the money if you look at their expenditures it's not that crazy if you look at the ROI it is crazy like the amount of that you get in return given how

44:46

much you actually put in is um well worth it um that is something and I should also say that if

44:53

we're serious about a Muslim APAC then it's going to have to put put money in both the left and

44:58

the right just as APAC does as they usually they prefer to primary somebody within their own party

45:06

as opposed to let it go to general election that is something absolutely that we should we should start considering doing where we would rather um primary a Zionist Republican with an anti-zionist

45:17

America First Republican or a Libertarian uh and put money behind that person we would rather that

45:22

they get the party nomination even if they lose the general uh and the same arm on the left same

45:28

thing with the Democrats we would rather put money behind an anti-zionist Democrat going

45:33

against a Zionist Democrat absolutely we should be doing that um there's other ways to curtail

45:40

the influence of APAC and even the entire phenomenon of this legalized bribery that should also be pursued but are more long term so there's Farah enforcement Farah the foreign

45:50

agents uh registration act or whatever it stands for something similar to that where a pack and

45:56

the Israeli Lobby should be registered under that and it would restrict a bit of what they can do

46:02

that's another route um there's campaign finance and citizens united in general which basically

46:08

opened the door or we should say blew the doors off any restrictions of financial contributions to

46:14

these campaigns that do Muslims have a long-term interest in reversing I think so I think that that

46:21

would make these sorts of things more fair and if the Catholics can plan for 70 years to reverse

46:27

versus Wade we can absolutely plan and make a a 20 year or 30-year plant to reverse citizens united

46:32

like that's the thing people people unfort I think I should put this in the positive that people are slowly starting to realize with the Muslim Community that everything is plastic

46:44

everything is is movable nothing is is set in stone and is going to last forever it literally

46:51

is it just requires a certain input energy or a certain price to get behind it and to push and

46:56

strategize and to figure out the way to do it but everything is up for grabs if you're willing to to

47:03

put your your activity into it yeah just add add to that I think I think one of the significant or

47:10

major differences that obviously we would want to embod is that we're always embodying our values

47:15

we're not leaving leaving our principles at the door yes in fact one of the things that I have found is that Muslim groups who actually do political participation right can have a

47:24

tremendous effect on dawa so I've heard of stories many stories of people who do local political

47:30

Outreach in different regions of America where sometimes you'll have a staffer of a politician

47:36

who just becomes enamored with Islam and some of them end up accepting Islam we had locally

47:43

um a young person who was the head in Maryland of uh of uh the young Republican Coalition who ended

47:52

up accepting Islam a few years ago and took his shahada because he reached out the Muslim Community and he was so impressed with the type of principles and values that Muslims were upholding

48:01

he started learning about Islam he studied at theologically came to the community and said ready

48:08

to convert all right so these types of things can happen um and and we've seen that on both sides

48:14

of the aisle where people actually get exposed to the truth and values of Islam and say wow there there's something really incredible here I think the imperative of dawa is always going to Le

48:25

over any political activity that we do I think the type of lobbying work that's simply a component of

48:31

it right you always need to have a multifaceted agenda if you look across you look at different

48:37

conservative organizations for instance one that has been receiving little bit of attention as of

48:42

late is a group called American moment it's headed by two young people one of the guys who's the head

48:48

of IT his name SB Sharma young Indian guy uh they're more aligned with Trump's America First

48:55

agenda so sort of JD Vance crowd JD Vance is one of the people who endorsed them helped them start it up uh their goal is to capture people between the ages of 25 and 35 and help them get positions

49:11

within different political administrations so that 10 15 20 years from now they are the ones calling

49:18

the shots behind the scene he's you know his part of his argument is the Deep state is not a stable

49:24

entity we can become part of the deep state and begin to advance our interests but it has to start

49:30

somewhere and we have a network we can help coach people we can help develop their connections on

49:37

Capitol Hill we can train them to get into these roles and positions and we can advocate for them

49:42

behind the scenes to get their foot in the door establish a beach head these people can grow we're

49:49

in constant contact with them we're helping Mentor them along the way once they're able to advance

49:54

into those positions they can start a affecting change in ways that they may not be able to in lower level positions and it takes time that's a piece of a strategy the idea is that if you

50:04

think about the long game for Muslims we need to think about what that strategy looks like for us

50:10

that that remains to be seen up till now what we've done a lot of is civil rights activity

50:15

that's been reactionary in the face of aggressive islamophobia although that's all well and good as

50:21

I've mentioned before the complexion of politics has changed considerably since those days the way

50:26

in which we participate in society has to adjust it simply cannot be a recapitulation of post 911

50:36

civil rights activism that it remains reactionary and single-minded on a handful of pet issues um

50:46

which may still be active but aren nearly as live as they once were you know things like the no-fly

50:51

list and stuff like that I mean can I um uh ask you then about the role of the of Islam

50:58

the role of the Sharia where are our our red lines because um I think it there's a criticism that uh

What are the guardrails?

51:04

a brother um recently post to me as someone who is involved with with sort of the Electoral side

51:11

electoral Politics on a UK level and and elsewhere uh and he he he he said the following that when it

51:19

comes to even learned Muslims who are engaged in the electoral process there seems to be Embrace

51:27

of melanism and and there is not a there's not a a positive um explanation of where the Islamic red

51:35

lines are and so a a young Muslim who may be who may want to get involved with with politics has

51:44

very little to guide them at the moment uh there are very few guard rails for them um and um I just

51:51

wonder if I'm Tom um is that a fair criticism of where we are I I get it that we've been five

51:56

fighting and in many ways that positive statement of the you know Islam and the Sharia uh and where

52:04

what those guard rails are has not been made because we've just not had the opportunity to make it but moving forward is there a need really to do that absolutely I think that um

52:15

I think that what you said is very important and what the brother is saying is also very important

52:21

that we're reacting to a genocide so we have not transcended a reactionary state yet unfortunately

52:27

though I think that we're for the first time maybe paying attention in such a way that we'll get there but there's no doubt that for a lot of us we really only started paying attention after

52:37

October 7th that the horrors of the last year plus have shocked us and so a lot of that is

52:43

reactionary however I think that what is different this time around uh as mine was saying is that we

52:51

um this does not seem like 9911 this seems very different it seems like the Muslim Community is

52:56

maturing and we are ready to move Beyond reactionary politics which will require an

53:05

articulation and an Islamic articulation of not just Islamic values and platforms but red lines

53:11

like you're saying principles and these things this is something that I've been working on quite a bit um obviously it's very preliminary but it's very very important Perhaps it is one of the most

53:22

important tasks it's true we're not materialists so not going to make our calculus like materal s

53:30

however um a lot of people they are surprised at some of the tactics or strategies that even

53:37

the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam used in Warfare and in other scenarios that I am

53:44

afraid that some people would write off as makan right the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said

53:49

that war fair is deception and there are examples where for example um at before the Battle of B

53:57

started where heat he walked out of sight from his own Army and he encountered a bin and he

54:05

asked the ban where is the Muslim Army and he was acting as if he was not part of the Muslim Army

54:11

um and then when the bin responded accurately because the prophet knew where his army was

54:16

then the prophet Sall Ali wasallam learned from him that he was able to trust this person which

54:22

then he asked the real question that he wanted an answer to which is where was the army of so if somebody is looking at that scenario is that mellan somebody could say yes but we find that

54:34

squarely within Divine guidance and Revelation and approval we have similar examples after the battle

54:40

ofad where the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasam the first thing that he did was he galvanized the Muslim Army and rallied them to pursue the quray into the desert as they retreated now this was a

54:50

complete Bluff because they were really hurting and they did not have any reinforcements in fact if the pores had decided to engage them they might not have survived however the point was to spook

55:02

them into thinking that they had reinforcements and that is in fact exactly what happened the qur believed the bluff they felt for the bluff that the Muslims had reinforcements and they

55:11

continued their Retreat all the way back to all the way back to Mecca so people this this entire

55:18

thing needs built it needs to be built out and it needs articulation um however people we also

55:24

have to realize that people unfortunately we live in a secular society and most of us have

55:30

a bit of secular thinking so we might have an idealized imagination of what Islamic politics

55:35

might look like that these types of things that happen during the time of the Prophet Sall alaihi wasallam are not part of uh of an idealized theam that they seem mellian they seem um I don't like

55:48

dirty tricks or something like that so we need to be careful to not fall into this bifurcation of well there's secular dirty politics over here and then there's idealized over here and we need

55:59

to actually look at the tradition and say this is the scope in which we're allowed to act and

56:05

this is fully Islamic and we're allowed to do that even the example of paying a Risha paying a bribe

56:11

in order to get your H which is something well established in the book of um you know this goes

56:16

against people who might say oh well the system's all corrupt so that we can't do anything about it

56:21

well what's your understanding about what Islam is that you would say that you can't touch it or you can't participate in it whatsoever right so we need to we need to drill down on these things

56:31

and we do need to articulate these things um mine building on on that uh and the Islamic premise of

Prioritisation in communities

56:37

our political activism um I was I gave a lecture recently or a presentation at a musjid and um a

56:45

couple of Muslims responded by saying that if you focus too much on electoral politics you forget

56:50

about the other areas where you actually can have a greater influence on um Muslim Community whether

56:57

that's that or whether that's working in local communities whether that's youth work um and what

57:03

may happen is the risk is you end up neglecting some of these really important uh building blocks

57:11

of building a a community which uh reflects uh Islam like how do you see electoral politics

57:19

within the scheme of diaspora Muslims who are trying to fundamentally keep their ident and keep

57:27

close to ver de as we Traverse the the challenges that we face yeah that's that's a that's a good

57:34

point I think often times and I I would probably agree with that critique overall I do think at

57:40

times people invest a lot of psychological and emotional energy into the presidential election in

57:47

particular and I think they allow themselves to be emotionally overwhelmed at times by outcomes um I

57:54

see a lot of that of outpouring online especially from younger people who are very impressionable

58:02

and maybe more politically engaged or activated at younger ages because of how consuming politics can

58:08

be especially the Electoral politics every four years I think nevertheless even if you're thinking

58:14

about bringing about certain types of changes it's not as if change simply occurs through the

58:19

ballot right change is multifaceted there's top- down change but there's also bottom up change

58:26

and we have to do the work of trying to establish cultural change through whatever mechanisms and means we have at our disposal is an imperative that looms over every single Muslim which is

58:37

commanding the good and forbidding the evil every single person has to participate in that project

58:43

in some capacity now what that means for for somebody is going to be different some people

58:49

are going to be active within that space by teaching the Quran and being active in madaris or their local Masjid others are going to be producing cultural artifacts media um and I

59:00

think what Muslims should not do is underestimate the possibilities that are in front of them if you look at cultural change that's happened outside of the Muslim Community by individual

59:09

actors um you know often times these people weren't very impressive it's not like they had huge platforms and it just grew right someone like Joe Rogan who's I think today the most

59:19

popular podcaster certainly in America when he started his podcast he was a d-list celebrity um

59:26

he would just you know put videos of himself with his friends when he's smoking weed talking about sort of extemporaneously different topics it's not as if he had billions of dollars behind

59:37

him was a lowbudget production and it grew and it grew to the point now where you know

59:44

presidential candidates are coming on a show um you know M think about the thinking Muslim

59:49

and where it's come Jill star appeared on your program that's not trivial or inconsequential

59:56

right the fact that she came on your program to try to appeal for votes right you think about

1:00:02

when the thinking Muslim started and the way it was you know sort of working at that time that we

1:00:09

have platforms that are growing and we have people who are doing work and that work is seeping out to

1:00:14

more than just them I think about the effect that some of my writings have had I received

1:00:20

letters from a large number of non-muslims around the world who follow my writings and sometimes

1:00:28

we'll offer very thoughtful comments about things they agree or disagree with and I'll find myself

1:00:34

engaged in lengthy back and forths with some of them um you know I've received received emails

1:00:41

from people literally in monasteries right now said I came across your article I just wanted to

1:00:46

thank you for it and it's it's really interesting you you really don't know what type of effect you

1:00:52

can have by trying to contribute to advancing some good in the world around us and so when I

1:01:02

think about Muslim public participation I think there's so much that we have at our disposal to

1:01:08

do whether that's social work and relief work whether it's helping Advance sort of the agenda

1:01:15

of stronger families and communities when we think about education and that well we have our work cut

1:01:20

out for us we have a lot to do politics is simply one of those domains and Arenas and it becomes

1:01:28

that much more important simply because of the way in which it affects the global order especially

1:01:34

for American Muslims we have to recognize the role that America plays around the globe as the global

1:01:43

heta and we have to be invested I I believe in a great at a greater level than others in trying

1:01:52

to counteract that influence we have to because we're we're in the belly of the Beast that people

1:01:59

say well we have an opportunity here because of all the Privileges we have in this nut well yeah we also have a greater burden and that burden means that we have to try to stand up against

1:02:07

this machine before it continues to rec havit on our brothers and sisters around the world yeah

1:02:15

just one timey addition which is that I think that the opportunity that electoral politics

1:02:24

offers is to politicize people right so you know using it as a Gateway or a funnel to much more

1:02:32

sustainable holistic and Broad political action um that's when For Better or Worse the the surface of

1:02:41

it the theater of it makes a lot of people pay attention that normally don't pay attention so

1:02:47

there's an opportunity there to try to politicize newcomers into other avenues of of action um that

1:02:58

going forward after that so the one of the things that we're doing here is to try to now focus on um

1:03:04

across the board to make a two-year plan I've gathered sort of some of the people that have gotten politicized in this last election election cycle and now develop a two-year plan there's the

1:03:15

midterm elections coming up most people fall asleep and ignore the midterm elections there's tremendous opportunity uh for Muslims in the midterm elections but we we start planning now

1:03:24

we start planning now to uh even just map out how do certain decisions get made at what level

1:03:30

of government who's in charge here when are people up for re-election uh what are their profiles what

1:03:36

are their platforms or even like we said the the cultural front there's so many different fronts

1:03:41

but the idea is to just keep the momentum going what we don't want to have happen is that after an election happens that people vent they're venting online they're venting on WhatsApp groups and then

1:03:50

they just move on with their lives we need to have opportunities for people to plug into that are

1:03:55

going to keep that fire going uh throughout the year and there are things to do in schools there

Mid Terms

1:04:02

are things to do uh with media and with culture there's there's lots of opportunities out there

1:04:07

yeah on the midterm election front I mean this is this is the type of thing where you start thinking strategically and say okay this is an opportunity where midterm elections tend to have

1:04:15

smaller turnouts your ability to actually turn in election especially locally within a district or accounting much higher you're getting involved with politicians who are careerists you know 10

1:04:25

15 20 years from now they could be State Senators but they're starting off their campaign with some District position and you're getting involved in building relationships with them before they have

1:04:33

an APAC Handler right before they've been totally compromised in this role U most these people did

1:04:39

not start off their Congressional careers with strong convictions on the question of Israel you're talking about 535 members of Congress these people are all over the board when they start

1:04:47

off their careers now a lot of their positions on those types of issues are rified right and that's

1:04:53

happened through years and years a prolonged exposure and dependence on particular lobbies

1:04:59

right and Zionist lobbies and so um if we can sort of preced those moments and try to affect these

1:05:05

people longer term like that's that's one of the things that we stand to benefit from well I just I

1:05:12

think we've had a really interesting conversation and I I quite I very much like the framing of

US Muslims and exceptionalism

1:05:17

this conversation that you guys in America in particular you have a greater responsibility uh

1:05:24

to question and this Empire and uh you know for a long time I think from from where I'm standing

1:05:31

at least um I found that uh generally across the west but in particular American Muslims have um

1:05:39

I I suppose swallowed that um us exceptionalism pill and until now uh it just seemed to me that

1:05:47

there wasn't this desire to use the various levers available to you uh to to question this Empire

1:05:54

so I think it's a it's a really um it's a really interesting place that I think Muslims are at and

1:06:00

possibly as closing remarks guys I mean Gaza has I think woken us all up in in in every sphere right

1:06:07

but I I suspect its impact on the American Muslim psyche has been uh pretty enormous it seems to me

1:06:14

is that a fair reading uh mayin in term of of of the impact that Gaza has had oh yeah I think I

1:06:20

think the days of American Muslim conferences with a bunch of American flags on stage and

1:06:26

you know the singing of the national anthems and all that like that those days have got to end all

1:06:31

like those those days have we've got to move past those days and I think frankly there are a lot of

1:06:37

paradoxical possibilities that you know we should look out for with Trump where potentially America

1:06:43

standing globally is weakened and that could be to the collective benefit of many Muslims around the world and the extent to which we can help sort of turn things insular uh Retreat from

1:06:55

trying to police the entire world reduce you know uh military spending run a mock all those types of

1:07:02

things are things that we have vested interests in so I think American Muslims relationship to this country um to its sort of jingoistic arm and the nationalistic impulses that some continue to

1:07:15

possess like we've we've got to really critique that heavily and that's an ongoing project right the the pull of nationalism in fact even even higher order critiques liberalism secularism like

1:07:26

these are all dialogues and discourses that we have to work on simultaneously where we have our

1:07:31

high order critiques and then we're dealing with the system as it is and maneuvering within it and

1:07:37

figuring out how to be effective instrumentally all trying to reorient ourselves for the long

1:07:43

run I absolutely agree and I think that um one of the most hopeful things is that from my anecdotal

1:07:50

experience I've been able to travel a bit about a bit around the country in the last year is that

1:07:55

the American Muslim Community is ready for a new era that I do not see this as post 911 I do not

1:08:01

see people being afraid I do not see people um I think that after 911 many people thought that

1:08:08

if we were just the model minority that um was as likable as possible turned fully to relief

1:08:14

work that we would be safe and October 7th and what happened after taught people that that's

1:08:22

not true that you will never be safe if you don't build power um and so I see now a really unique

1:08:30

opportunity for the Muslim American Community it almost feels as if all the organizations that we

1:08:35

have may all reward them for all the work they've done it almost feels like they aren't sufficient anymore it almost feels like we're ready for something new that just like was saying with the

1:08:46

typical annual conferences that happen just have have less meaning they they they steal more Hollow

1:08:52

um so we really I think are at the precipice of potentially something really positive of a new

1:09:00

generation of organizations a new generation of leadership a new generation of um of strategic

1:09:06

action that's going to do these things and take the the that Duty and that unique exceptional Duty

1:09:13

and responsibility and accountability of Muslims in the United States of America more seriously

1:09:19

um and attempt to make an intervention in the way things are happening that will be pleasing

1:09:26

to Allah and a boon to Muslims worldwide well I would just to the two of you it's been a really

1:09:35

fascinating conversation and uh are there any further plans uh for you to come to the UK I'm

1:09:41

I'm sure I know maybe we missed one another the last time you were here but Imam Tom we

1:09:46

uh we had an enjoyable time in South London and Beyond we did I'll come to the other Kensington

1:09:51

and uh I think late January inah be coming to the UK so we'll be in touch about that and then maybe

1:09:59

another one more time in 2025 in t maybe any plans from your side no no plans on my side right now so

1:10:08

well it's great to have you both on on the show and uh and I think uh there's a lot to be hopeful

1:10:14

for it seems to me um moving forward so it's uh uh it's it's wonderful to hear from you folks

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