Ep 183. - The South African Imam on Justice and Struggle – Moulana Ebrahim Bham
Moulana Ebrahim Ismail Bham was born and raised in South Africa. He has attained his masters in the Islamic sciences and theology under great traditional scholars. Shaykh Ebrahim I. Bham is known to be one of the most active scholars in South Africa for education, development and advocacy.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
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human beings don't want to to stand up when it impacts negatively upon their welfare am katada was an iconic figure in the freedom struggle so there were many Muslims who were
0:09
in the in the Forefront of the anti apartate struggle and they fought for what they looked upon and they seen was the Islamic aspect of fighting against Injustice South Africa should
0:19
take the lead against a parted is right what accounts for that that absence of justice as our Co message don't ask Allah t for guidance if you're not prepared to move your feet
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Seeking Justice and struggle is at the core of the Islamic message yet it seems today that many
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who profess the faith have become comos unready and unwilling to act in a way that may harm their
0:44
interests the genocide of Gaza has in many ways shown the best and the worst of our response a
0:51
great number have been energized but many are still content with charity and Dua essential
0:57
but insufficient for those that have the capacity so how do we reorient our world view and thinking
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today I have molana Ibrahim bang who is the Secretary General of the Council of Scholars of
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South Africa J he's also the long-standing Imam of some 40 Years of the most historic mosque in
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Johannesburg Masjid hamedia he is an educator an advocate and an activist and champions local
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and international causes and traditionally he studied Islam to an MA level in Pakistan Mam
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and welcome to the think Muslim alikum to all your listeners well it's wonderful to have you
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with us and actually um the I think this is the shortest period I've I've spent in meeting someone
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and bringing them on to the podcast I met you yesterday barely uh 24 hours ago alhamdulillah
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I was so impressed with our conversation that I I invited you on so jaak thank you for making time
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for us today also my honor I've always heard about the thinking Muslim so it is a great
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privilege to be with you um actually I want to start with I mentioned in the introduction that
Hamidia Masjid
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uh you are the Imam of of a some some 40 Years of the uh one of the most historic mosques in
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Johannesburg uh the hamedia hamedia Masjid I mean explain explain the the historical importance of
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Masjid so it's a very interesting very very interesting history so I I would say that the
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Masjid was established towards the end of the 1800s right uh and at that time the trustees
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of the Masjid um had communicated with a sultan the ottoman now obviously the Ottoman Empire by
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that time was in a declining State uh but they had communicated which is on record so they had
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written a special thanks to the Ottoman Empire and the ottoman Sultan for sending ramza ramzi
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B B ramzi Bay was um the council uh general of the Ottoman Empire sent to South Africa he
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passed away in South Africa and he's buried in Johannesburg but he spent much of his time in
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in Cape Town but uh so the trustees of this Masjid wrote to the sultan at that time to thank him for
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sending the ersary and that letter was quite well prepared it was for you know quite well
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done calligraphy in in a calligraphy way and it still adorns uh the building of the Turkish
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Embassy so they've kept it so it seemed that the name hamidia was named after Sultan Abdul Hamid
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now we know despite the fact that the Ottoman Empire was in Decline and sometimes it's very
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interesting that um all empires in Civilization towards the end and towards the decline uh you
3:56
always have people of great um Integrity so the same thing happened with the mul Empire so the
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mul Empire had a series of weak you know rulers towards the end of its uh time the civilization
4:09
and then you had bahad Shah zaf who was one of the the great man men of letters a man of great poet
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poet what a beautiful don't regard zafur as a human being if he cannot fear Allah tala you
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say who does not fear Allah tal in his time of EAS right and and in the time of his anger he
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neglects Almighty Allah subhana wa tala so he's not worthy of being called a human being that if he has these two traits so that's was like it almost like seems like towards the end of a era
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in an Empire it was like a candle that brows you know the last flicker is almost as bright as the
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the time of his glory so the same thing happened with us the Ottoman Empire sulan Abid you know CAU
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the respect of the Muslims worldwide at that time because he opposed European colonialism although
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maybe perhaps it was already too late because the decline had already set in so it seemed that the
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trustees of the moset that kept his the name of the Majid under him because of the respect that
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he had GED throughout the Muslim world and that is one aspect with regard to the Masjid and in 1908
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um the famous incident that took place outside the Amia Majid of which pictures still exist of
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the burning of the passes outside the the Masjid now the burning of the passes was very significant
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because the pass was one of the cornerstones of the apart regime that they used to have people
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having their past to identify themselves as um you know a racial background so you are a white
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person you colored person you India person or you're black person so in 1908 the the Muslims
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uh got together and they made a form of protest so Gandhi became famous with regard to the burning of
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the passes although he was called from from London from the UK to be a legal adviser for the burning
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of the passes and of course he was part and parcel of it and but however it was the entire Community
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initiative and the burning of the passes took place so even today the city of Johannesburg
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had caught a small memorial outside the Masjid to commemorate the burning of the passes and in 2008
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there was a commemoration of the 100th Century of the burning of the pastors at that time Paulo
6:42
Jordan now Paulo Jordan was a minister in the first uh Government after a parted by Nelson
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Mandela and he was regarded to be the intellectual voice of thec the African National Congress so he
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made mention he said as far as I can recall and my uh history uh background and knowledge
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tells me that the first uh sign of resistance against aparted although aparted was formerly
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uh only introduced in 1947 and 4748 but he said although from that time Already There Was You
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Know Rumblings of starting the aparted you know and of course there was great amount of Injustice
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by the colonialist at that time so he said the first resistance was the burning of the passes
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so the MOS was um you know the burning of the PES took place in 1908 which was commemorated in 2008
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sh I I I've been to South Africa I had relatives in South Africa and of course many most Muslims
South African Muslims
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are probably or many Muslims are from uh an Indian background it just seems to me that South African
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Muslims are cut a bit differently to uh maybe other Indian Muslims around world I don't want
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to be uh too too derogatory here but it just seems to me that South African Muslims are very radical
8:02
in a good way and they're able to see Justice and Injustice quite clearly like where does that come
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from I I think it it won't be a completely a universal um you know definition with regard
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to Muslims and Indian Muslims there have been both negative and positive and there have been
8:23
different approaches that have been taken by Indian Muslims with regard to aparted so let's say from the time of aparted 194 7 48 onwards yeah they have been people who who oppose the
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parted State yes and there were people who I won't say necessarily some of them might have been um
8:40
in conjunction or cooperating with with a part regime yeah and maybe to to to say I would say
8:47
perhaps that many people because of um various reasons and one is one of the reasons is human
8:53
Frailty yes human weakness human beings don't want to to stand up when it impacts negatively
8:59
upon their welfare so I would say majority of the Muslims that time the Gujarati Muslims and Indian
9:05
Muslims uh were passive bystanders although there were a significant amount of people who had taken
9:12
a stance and uh the Indian National Congress became and I suppose maybe it was also of found
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by the the the the Indian Congress um of course Indian Congress uh before its decline uh had a
9:26
very um Progressive stun it had a very Progressive stance with regard to fighting against the British
9:33
and also a very Progressive stance with regard to a party South Africa and with regard to Palestine
9:39
therefore it is uh quite sad with regard to the stance that India has taken from then onwards
9:45
because traditionally uh India was among those who who was the first to bring to the United Nations
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and to the naine conference uh the issue of a party in South Africa the first people to raise uh
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the flag with regard to and warning the word world with regard to aparted was India and for now to
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see that the right-wing uh party in in India have you know become pro Israel is is going against the
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very tradition of the founders of uh India so maybe Indian National Congress in South Africa
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was um fashioned from the the Congress in in India so we had different strains with regard to the the
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Muslim Community or the Indian Community there were those who were uh were very vocal against
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the parted and of course they there's a proud record so the first person uh who who brought
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up the aspect with regard to a party South Africa was an Alim and who completed his studies in Daran
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was M K and K happens to be distant relative my maternal aunt is married to his an only son
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who was passed away recently several months back so the two people were were sent by the African
11:04
National Congress Moses kotani and MV Kela who first raised the issue of a parted in South Africa
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in the bandom conference in Indonesia of the first in the founding of the nanaline conference
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and that's where from there onwards uh it it took center stage in the United Nations there's
11:23
no doubt whatsoever that it was because of the international boycotts and the international con
11:29
and pressure upon South Africa that saw the fall of the party South Africa so Muslims were in the Forefront with regard to it and my understanding is even on Robin Island there were
11:39
Muslims who were imprisoned with NASA Mandela can you Enlighten us on on those Muslims well
11:44
there were very many many Muslims who were there who were to you know one was Ahmed katada yeah
11:50
ahed katada was an iconic figure in the freedom struggle yeah he was with um Nelson Mandela uh
11:58
and you know after when Nel Mandela became the first president he appointed him to be
12:04
a minister in two portfolios which he declined and he said that I don't want to I didn't enter
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politics to become a minister or to take the trappings and he remained a vocal you know a
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Critic against Injustice so even when UMC took a path uh that towards in the time of Zuma Etc which
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many people of the the founders ofc and the people who were there in the struggle found it very much
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against the essence of the founders ofc he was very very vocal against that in fact he wrote
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a letter open letter which was published in the media so Ahmad katada was the one who was with um
12:42
uh Nelson Mandela and Robin Island and of course there was Imam Abdullah Haron who was also killed
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by the aparted forces they were teachers who in the Forefront Ahmed Timol was thrown down from the
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infamous John Foster Square which Still Remains in Johannesburg and he was thrown down from the building in the from the 10th floor uh so there me there were many Muslims who were in The Forefront
13:07
B suuji uh who was also there people like Abdul Jad who came and uh who came and settled down in
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in London and he headed the anti parted move on from London abdad also happens to be a a family
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member came coming from the very same ancestral Village of mines and towards right towards the
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end you know he was like someone uh who suffered the the the the consequences of the torture that
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was there Dr isub jat so all of them Rashid salji so there were many Muslims who were in the in the
13:41
Forefront of the anti apartate struggle and they fought um for for what they looked upon and they
13:47
seen was the Islamic aspect of of um fighting against Injustice I remember when radio Islam
13:55
was established radio Islam was established by the jam and and I had the opportunity of interviewing
14:01
Ahmed Katra and asked him what was the basis of your entering and resisting the aparted regime
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and he said that uh it was a social uh economic and the social justice uh teachings of Islam that
14:15
made me uh oppose the the apart regim so fast forward to today uh South Africa has been at
South Africa ICJ
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the center of this International legal struggle against the aparte state of uh Israel and uh it's
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Dr Nal pandor who I know you have a a relationship with and yesterday there was a great conversation
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between the two of you and and and our audience um uh tell me a little bit about Dr pandor and
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her work as foreign secretary and how she brought this case to the icj uh but also how the Muslim
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Community maybe responded and and helped in that uh in that conversation so what what transpire
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that n was first minister of Education in the previous um dispensation yes then was made the
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Minister of Foreign Affairs or the way the world would call it Al in South Africa it's known as
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Darko the the department of inter international relations right so she was made the minister and
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she was always very articulate and very very you know strong in opposition against Injustice so
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when uh I mean obviously we know that many many activist have always warned against making the
15:36
entire scenario what is happening in Gaza not to relate it specifically only to October the 7th
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Gaza has a history of Oppression in Injustice way before October the 7th and there have been many activist who have spoken about this aspect and there has been an attempt by the Zionist regime uh
15:54
to make everything you know filter or come around 7th of October and whatever the circumstances
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and much has been written with regard to the the entire what actually happened and what transpired
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and of course there's a dubious um role that was played with regard to October 7 I'm not going to
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go into that but after the October the 7th um you know the Jewish Lobby in in South Africa met with
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the President right met with the president um and apparently the the media uh gave the the
16:25
the understanding that that um the president said certain things with regard to the October
16:31
7th thing which obviously there are many people who have uh spoken about the incident and you
16:38
know condemn the incident or apparently what had happened but of course um a lot of people have
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started to saying that listen there's there's much more and much Beyond 7th of October so the ANC
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were were not happy with regard to the media uh portrayal of what happened for the South African
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Jewish Board of deputies and thec called up a special meeting with uh Pro Palestinian activist
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with regard to the matter and there was a group of over 40 people who went to the headquarters of
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the African National Congress in Luli house in the center of janesv and I was also part and parcel of
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it myself and three other people would were given the task of um you know leading the presentations
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and that's a Time the first time that we spoke to the president saying that South Africa given his
17:30
historical role and given the fact that it has been uh vocal and has fought against a part and
17:37
the world supported it South Africa should take the lead again supp parted Israel and there is no doubt whatsoever there is sufficient evidence with regard to the fact that Israel is an aparted State
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and this is something that has been recognized even by the United Nations General Assembly and
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a lot of people have written with regard to it and I think it's a moral responsibility for South Africa to to to speak out against the party of Israel and at that stage uh you know I remember
18:05
that the people in the in the delegation spoke about the fact that maybe we should take the case
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to the I and there was a response from thec that uh I don't think all the parties are signatories
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to the I and I I might be wrong with regard to the technicalities and the definitions uh only
18:26
prosecutes individuals and does not prosecute stat and we are looking at other options so
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maybe that was one of the times when when this was moted and to the credit of South Africa that they did take that bold step even at the expense of um criticism and threats from the Western World
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in particular America and um n lady pandor been the the minister of D Co manying the Minister of
18:53
Foreign Affairs was in the Forefront with regard to those threats and was in the Forefront of artic
18:58
ulating the South African response and the South African uh delegation and the prosecution all film
19:07
The genocide case against israelim I think I'm not exaggerating when I say that n pandor is probably
Nalendi Pandor bravery
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the strongest Muslim leader we have in the in the world at the moment the Muslim world is is silent
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uh uh and we have Muslim countries that have far greater resources probably then South Africa
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who are uh who are not actually silent they're colluding with the Enemy like what accounts for
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uh this disparity where you've got this Brave uh foreign minister from South Africa who speaks the
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hak speaks the truth um and and you know yesterday when when I was amazed at just how stridden and
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and and strong she was in comparison to these very weak leaders I I recall something yesterday's
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program when she was asked how did she counter the threat and how do the family count and she said well firstly uh there were two things that she made mention one was my Islamic stance yes
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and my my religious background and how I looked upon and and she quoted with regard to the Quran
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and I also in yesterday spoke about the aspect of the Justice in Islam and I think uh if if every
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Muslim want to follow the quranic uh teachings with regard to Justice there will be no doubt
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whatsoever that they will be Duty bound and they will be obliged to fight against Injustice when
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the Allah in the Holy Quran says we have sent all the prophets with Clear Proof and we send down
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with them Revelation and the books of Almighty Allah subhana wa tala to establish people upon
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Justice Allah commands you with regard to Justice and virtuous virtue and
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righteousness and fulfilling the rights of the relatives Allah prohibits for you immorality and
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all forms of Injustice and all forms of evil and that's such a powerful verse of the Holy
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Quran and as I said yesterday that you normally most throughout the world I've seen this you know whether it be in South Africa Sri Lanka Australia UK people conclude the the jba with this with this
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ayat yeah and it was first introduced right in the beginning stages of Islam by the rightous
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khif ABD who ended the J with this with this ayat and it is said that one of the great um
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Arab tribes the leader of the Arab tribe Sai uh he when he heard about the coming of Islam and
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the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam he he sent two of his most trusted representatives and can go
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and find out who is this Muhammad who is the new religion and find out what is his teachings and they came toam and they asked who are you he said Muhammad abdah I'm the servant of Almighty Allah
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I'm the messenger of the almighty Allah what is your teachings andam recited this verse and that
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is the essence of the entire Islam you know and when they came back and he just read the ayat and he said Subhan Allah is that what is his teaching and there's one ayat which you and I listen to on
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a weekly basis and doesn't move and Inspire us became the means of that entire tribe accepting
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Islam and uh sister yesterday made mention that is is because of this Islamic teachings with regard
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to justice that had given her the courage to be able to pursue what she had pursued that's amazing
Justice in Islam
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um so let's talk about Justice in Islam you said it's at the core of the Islamic message um but
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but today often when we think about uh Muslims and our response to these crisis like Gaza uh we can
22:50
often uh conclude that Muslims are quite comos they're quite quiet they uh they're not willing
22:56
to uh work against very interests and uh why is that even at a there's a governmental level where
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there's an absolute object failure but also a at a local level there seems to be a failure sometimes
23:09
at least alhamdulillah things are bet getting better um what accounts for that that absence
23:14
or justice as our core message it's it's hard to explain really it's hard to also fathom that when
23:21
they such create an emphasis with regard to it and sometimes the Quran says fight for justice uh even
23:28
if is against your own self even if against your own family members and against your own interest so you know I I can't pinpoint what is the reason it maybe the weakness of Faith uh but at the end
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of the day there's also some positive um uh you know interactions and there's some positive work
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that has been done by people yeah and well the point with regard to Gaza why it's even more
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said is that this is happening like almost played out in in front of the world it's played out in
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the screens of people people are seeing it and many times the more you see with regard to what is happening it almost leads uh to to a feeling of um not regarding the seriousness of it it's
24:07
almost like you you you you lose the seriousness because it has been played out it's almost like you've seen so many films in which things has happened and you can't make the differentiation
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between what is like portrayed uh in in in in a film and what is actually in real time this is
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not something that is you know is a film this is you know this this is something that is is real
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time you are seeing people been slaughtered in real time you are seeing being women and children and uh it's it's absolutely amazing that the not only Muslims people of um people who claim to be
24:41
humanitarians or people who claim to be people who will uphold human rights will be silent with
24:47
regard to what is happening it it doesn't it beges belief it's but this is a reality with regard to
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what is happening and we we really need to be doing more obviously no one is saying that you should do something that is reckless and I think n also made mention of that point that don't do
25:03
something that uh could impact upon the space that you are in but within that space whatever you can
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you don't have to uh be Reckless but within within the space you need to be doing whatever you can
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the Quran says prepare yourself and do something against to the best of your ability there's a very
25:23
interesting uh you know story in our Islamic history of IM m IM M was imprisoned so every
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Friday he used to prepare himself for the Juma prayers you know wear his best clothes according
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to the circumstances that he was in prison maybe that time people were tied in Chains and he used
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to walk to the to the door of the prison right and then the prison authorities would tell him you know you were not allowed to get out of the prison and he used to lift up his hand and he say Ya
25:52
Allah you have told us in the Quran that when the call is made for Juma prayers and hasten towards
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the zik of Almighty Allah I have done whatever is in within my my my ability I've come to the
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doors of the prison they are not allowing me to go further but according to your command I've have done whatever I can forgive me for not going beyond that now I think that that should
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be some sort of inspiration what how much can you go up till are you satisfied that you have
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done everything within your own uh ability to be able to do something with regard to it
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there some you know there's something that can be done I'll give you an example which is quite amazing example when is Adam Patel came to South Africa recently for one conference and
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uh uh he he wanted to meet with the Islamic Medical Association so we set up a meeting it
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was at the Jan Muslim School boardroom and he came and he said that um there is the Islamic
26:51
medical associations in Britain Bim I think it's called yes uh and Islamic Medical Association in
26:57
Karachi in Pakistan in Malaysia are doing some sort of you know to help the people in Gaza so
27:04
they wanted to call some students they want to rec call some of the children who could make their way through Egypt uh who have had serious disabilities and serious physical challenges uh if they could
27:15
be accommodated in the various countries they were looking at doctors who could provide uh some form
27:21
of virtual learning uh to the people who are in Gaza uh to be able to continue the medical study
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and quite a few things were were put in you know discussed so the Islamic Medical Association said
27:34
he will be part and parel of it so M suan of the a very famous International relief
27:41
organization which has earned great amount of admiration not holy amongst Muslims but even non-muslims so he called some 20 students who have been accommodated in the in Cape Town
27:51
University and a small group of students who have come to the University of Advan from Gaza
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and then there were certain um you know some of them who were called in and who had SE several
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physical challenge and disabilities and one of the doctors just told me recently that um they were
28:12
all surprised that in one of the uh the patients who came young young person when they opened them
28:22
up there before that the guest that has been used by the Zionist forces was still busy burning the
28:28
body from the inside and they didn't know how to deal with it they they never had any experience
28:34
with regard to something like this and they said that we need to take it from that you know Clinic
28:41
that they had the medical clinic they might have to transfer it to a clinic that had the facilities
28:47
and resources to deal with it and the thought came that you know people talk about the lack of
28:53
genocide I mean what is that small children being you know impacted with with bombs of that nature
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that even after several months and they still the impact with regard to that is happening on
29:05
their bodies this is the extent of the oppression and Injustice you know and surely we have to do
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you know be able to do something with regard to at least maybe it might not stop it but at least here
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was an attempt by the doctors of the world to be able to sit and say right this is what we're going to do this is within our capacity and they doing whatever we can now people who are journalist
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people who are can work within their own spheres of influence to make a difference um how do we
How do we stay motivated?
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remain motivated in this long struggle I mean a Gaza genocide has now been over a year and um
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after a while you know you try and you try and you try that even protests sometimes seem to fall on
29:44
deaf ears um in that in the face of an inability to change the reality in front of us uh how do we
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remain uh motivated in this struggle I think one important point is um that we remain motivated
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because we as Muslims don't look upon the world as the behold in the end all of our existence that
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we know that there is another sphere of existence which is more evolved and more just than the than
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the existence we have here and Allah subhana wa ta'ala in the Holy Quran has made mention
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several places that Allah tal is not so in that in in Surah ibraim there's a very beautiful verse
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don't think that Allah T is unaware of what the oppressors do is aware of it and then in another place in the Holy Quran inah in the last
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page don't be Hasty with regard to the people who are oppress
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us hope I can be able to explain it in English the way the Arabic conveys it we are counting
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the wrong that they are doing don't be Hasty we are counting what they are doing and we
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we we firmly believe and I I've got absolutely no doubt whatsoever even to the degree of one
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a that all those who are doing the Injustice they will have to face the consequences we are
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human beings we sometimes like to see some things like you know in haste we would like to see some things quick uh it's it's natural and sometimes you feel y Allah
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the way the people who are committing Injustice and oppression and it let us also live to see the day when they have to face the consequences of what they are doing we are only seeing them
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committing the oppression and Injustice when will we be able to see them also facing the uh the
31:42
punishment of what they are doing you know I mean and it it's human human beings have been very mean
31:48
I mean see what happened Ina what is happening in Sudan and what is happening when are we going to
31:53
see the people who are committing this Injustice and oppression have to face now we have to keep in mind that many times things don't happen according to our time frame you know we we have
32:04
a time frame sometimes we have a time frame that this one oppressor must be killed after fer must
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be destroyed after fer this oppressor must be you know obliterated after zor and the third one must
32:16
be completely eradicated after it doesn't happen by our time frames by the time frames of Allah
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Allah says he's very Swift in taking Reckoning but the time frame in terms of the entirety of of time
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compared to our the stuff is is is our time frame is is very limited to the Eternal justice of Allah
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tala now let me give you an example from the Holy Quran so when Fon was at his Peak right and we
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also he used to kill the children of and he used to imprison the woman right so made an amazing Dua
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Allah destroy his wealth because that wealth is been used to oppress people put a fail on his
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heart that he must not be able to see the truth he must not bring IM until he sees your punishment
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now this is a Dua of a prophet when all the great prophets the one who converse with Allah subhana
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wa tala now you and I we make Dua after one day we feel Allah is not accepting our Dua mam made
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this Dua that this man who is oppressing people and what what degree of Oppression
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that he's doing don't let him die until he sees your punishment and it happened right so Allah
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says because of his Dua was now you know
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drowning I bring IM upon the Lord of B is right and I want to become a Muslim
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Allah says now after all the oppression that you have done and you among those who
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had you know bring corruption and oppression and Injustice upon the Earth not only will we destroy
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you we will preserve your body for people to say this is what happened to the oppressors this what
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happened to people of who commit Injustice when I went to Egypt a few years back and we went to
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the Egypt Museum and we said that that particular place where they don't allow you even to to take
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photos and images because they say it can impact upon the preservation so they said rames rames
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the third is the Fon that is made mention in the Holy Quran so when someone asked me I was part
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of a group and they asked me is this possible I said well it's possible Allah T says that we will preserve his body to show you what Allah has done to the people who have committed oppression
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the point I would like to make was that when m am made this Dua so there's two narrations
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one narration says it happened after 40 years and the other narration said it happened after 70 years so we must never become so Allah also tells us don't be Hasty Allah will catch them
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it will happen but it won't happen by our time frame we I've got firm belief it will happen how
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it will happen only and that's a fantastic really great explanation so let me ask you
Accountability in Islam
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a question which I've been thinking about a lot um accountability we know that from an a Muslim
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perspective our all of our lives are accounted by Allah subhana wa taala we there is nothing
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that is uh that we do which Allah subhana waa does not recognize us either being good or bad
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and Allah will uh will give us compensation for that uh for for our actions and our Deeds so in
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relation then to Gaza how do we know that we have absolved ourselves of our responsibility if we
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can ever find that how do we know that we have done enough from an accountability not from a results perspective from a perspective of Allah tala how would you answer to I would say that
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you you have to question yourself that evaluate your Deeds before Almighty Allah evaluate your
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de you have to ask yourself the question have we done enough and really I think most of the time we will we will come back with the answer that we have not yeah not to the extend of
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the scale of what is happening or not and may Allah forgive us for our shortcomings we know that the Believers are like one single body do we feel the pain I mean what would we have
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done if something like this happens you know to ourself what would we have done yeah and here is something when we are one body I mean have we done sufficiently and here we're not
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saying that someone must just go out and go out in the streets and do something that is reckless and La no it's not but everyone must say within my own circumstances have
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I done sufficiently you know as a reporter as an Alim as a you know I think even with regard
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to reading two ofat on a daily basis have we done that you know really it's something that we have to think that Ya Allah we are we asking you to to resolve this situation we
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cannot do anything you you you you bring about the situation so I think that that is something that we we really need to have a greater accountability and that is you know to say
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is a very famous verse in the ho Quran which our imams reads in the different Salat he say it is
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one of the most the verse in the Holy Quran that induces the greatest fear with regard to accountability even if you do an iota of evil you will sit in front of Allah on
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the day ofat and even if you do an aot of good you will sit in front of Almighty Allah on the
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day of judgment so I mean we have to keep that and is not only with regard to our I
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yeah you know there's a very beautiful incident of om Justice and accountability with regard
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to oppression and Injustice so he came to a Christian person in in in uh Egypt you know
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they were having a camel race and the son of the governor because he was a son of the governor
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lost the camel race to a person of another faith when the Muslims were in Authority in Egypt and he hit him across his bare back with a wolf and he felt very bad but he couldn't do
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anything because the son of the governor so he heard that Omar was a person who was very just
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and he came to Madina and he told Omar the whole thing and om summoned the son of the governor and
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summoned and when he summoned him he ascertained the facts he realized that he had did what uh the
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the plaintiff had made mention of so he told him that um you also whoop him the way he whooped you
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so uh um when he was about to whoop he said how did he whoop you he said no I didn't have
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my clothes so he told the son of the Ghana take out your clothes let him whoop you the way you whooped him and then when he finished whooped him he said you know take whoop the the governor he
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said the governor didn't do anything to him didn't do anything to me why should I whoop him so Omar that you know symbolically hid the governor and said is because of being the son of you you you
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know the son of the governor it is because of your position that he he he took the courage to do and he said a very amazing statement you know he said since when have you enslaved
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people when their mothers gave birth to them as free people now this aspect of enslaving people
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oppressing people treating people unjustly when Allah subhah wa ta'ala has you know given per
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people the dignity you know to to be free since when have you enslave people when Allah tal had
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created them as free people it's such a powerful statement that what Muslims are supposed to stand for to stand up against Injustice oppression and modern day slavery I was just seeing a documentary
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while I was coming here that they talked about Al jazer um you know modern day slavery in the
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UK right about how some people are are brought in under the pretext of finding jobs and then
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they are kept away the the passports are taken away they given 40 pounds a week and and and what putable conditions they are they kept in I mean so we we as human beings have to take
40:30
a stance and Muslims have to be in the Forefront because of our religious teachings to be against all form of Oppression and Injustice um I have a lot of non-muslims who watch my show uh quite
non-Muslims Islam queries
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a good number actually and and they like to they like it when um Muslims are talking about issues
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of justice and they find a a connection with with Muslims especially over Gaza uh but some
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of them do comment on my videos uh why is it that your speakers speak very eloquently about justice
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issues but sometimes we see Injustice in the Muslim world and we find that uh in in Muslim
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majority countries often poor people are treated very badly and there's corruption and there how would you how would you respond to to that very valid query I think from a non-muslim I think
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the the one question is you can you can't judge a religion by the by its adherance you know you you
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have to judge religion by it by its teachings and its values yeah it said that if people and
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Muslims don't uphold the teachings I mean we are obliged to do so I mean that is why our
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teachings and we all at least um emotionally we we show great amount of attachment to the
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religion but if you are going to be uh serious with regard to the religion then we have to put it into practice as I made mention of a quote yesterday that don't ask Allah t for guidance
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if you're not prepared to move your feet and I think it's important that if we are going to be serious with regard to Islam we have to be put Islam into practice in all facets Islam is not a
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religion only about devotion it's it's an complete you know which gives uh you know teachings with
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regard to politics with regard to uh Financial me matters Financial dealings monetary dealings with
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regard to operational injus one of the things that happens is if you're not going to fill the vacuum and I me very correctly said that uh if rightous people do not fill the vacuum with regard to uh
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government and governing issues then who are you going to blame when corrupt people take over that rain and we do understand that the system of the world is such that it has made
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it easier for people of corruption to take over the Reigns of Justice compared to the people of justice that we have to try at the end of the day Almighty Allah is not going to question us
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with regard to our success or failure Allah is going to question us with regard to our efforts this a very important point right so they are they are messengers of the Almighty
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um who will come on the day of kiamat some will come with no followers some will come
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with one followers Asam you know made da and called people to righteousness and goodness for
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950 years and they were 80 people who accepted him but he's still successful you know so um we
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we so the almighty doesn't look upon the results it looks upon how much of effort you did and his
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efforts as Alat wasam efforts were complete and perfect Allah I call my people day and
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night every time I call them towards righteousness
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they put their fingers on their ears not to listen to me then sometimes I called them publicly in front of everyone sometimes I went to their homes and I
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spoke to them secretly and still so there was no uh death when the was no lack of effort in
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his path now the whether Allah granted them or not that was in the hands of Almighty Allah but
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from our perspective how much of effort do you do with regard to implementing that is something that unow all question usir one last question for you um uh often especially when we're in a minority
Balance of Ummatic cause
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you're in the minority in South Africa we're certainly a minority here in Britain um there is a dilemma in our minds about uh let called omatic uh um consciousness thinking about our
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umah versus thinking about our local concerns and often there are two camps one Camp would say well
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we have to cater for the the local issues that the Muslim Community faces uh but of course the
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umah concerns are are massive and there Gaza has shown us that uh you know Gaza is a tip of
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the iceberg Subhan Allah a massive tip of the iceberg but still we have many endemic issues within the Muslim umah um how do we balance uh this omatic Vision versus sort of a very local
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uh way of viewing our our struggles and our our commitments personally I don't think there should
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be a contradiction in the two we do whatever I mean we all knows there's a circle of conf concern and the circle of influence so there's many things that we have a concern with regard
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to it and sometimes you can't always reach out to every aspect of your concern maybe sometimes
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Beyond you as a human being but within your own influence what can you do to influence a situation and of course the Great your circle of influence the greater it impacts upon your circle
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of concern so I think whatever we can do within our own circle of influence how much can you do and then slowly that moves on I mean look at the time of our beloved why moved on towards the ideal
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and the ideal was you know came to Madina sahu alaih wasallam set up Madina and there's such
45:50
a long history with regard toam moving to an ideal right toward till the end of our beloved
45:57
the entire Arabian Peninsula had become a Bastian of Justice Etc but it wasn't always that that way
46:04
so went to T sahu alaih wasallam we all know the situation in T is recently in T and this brought
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back great memories of our beloved sallu alaihi wasallam effort and his struggle in T and sallam
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did not succeed in setting up a base with regard to well didn't succeed maybe not in was always
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was successful in every Endeavor of his but in terms of the getting the people of th to accept
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and then comes back and that time in the time of Makkah there was this whole situation that
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if anyone comes back especially with the hostility against that you took you take the protection of
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someone so saw the protection of some people They didn't accept and then eventually M accepted and
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said I'll give you protection and he did it in a very amazing way he called he and his old sons and
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members of his tribe went into the Haram and the Caba and and said I have given Muhammad protection
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right and whoever harms him harms me and harms My Tribe and I will take it as a declaration of war
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the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam dealt with this situation while moving towards the ideal so we within our own situation whatever we can do we shouldn't underestimate whatever we do
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work on your circle of influence and the greater your circle of influence comes it impacts upon your concerns your circle of concern shahim it's really been a pleasure today and it's
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been an enlightened conversation thank you very much for your time Allah reward you and for the
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opportunity please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head over
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