Ep 210. - Scapegoating Muslims: Germany and the Rise of the AfD with Marcel Krass
At the time of recording, the German election results have just been announced, revealing an extraordinary outcome for the far-right AFD party, which came second in the Bundestag (parliamentary) elections with 20% of the popular vote, primarily from the country's East but also among some younger voters in the West. The opposition CDU party, led by Friedrich Merz, is on track for victory but will need to negotiate with either its traditional adversaries, the SDP, led by former Chancellor Scholz, or the minority parties. The AFD openly calls for the repatriation of ‘non-Germans,’ wherein ‘German’ is defined through a cultural and racial lens. Elon Musk has expressed support for the AFD, having spoken at one of its rallies. The party is avowedly anti-Islam and aims for a Germany free of Muslims. So, how do Muslims in Germany respond to these unprecedented and potentially challenging times ahead?
We are pleased to have Marcel Krass with us today. Marcel Krass converted to Islam in 1995 at the age of 18. Since 2007, he has been active in German Dawah and, alhamdulillah, is well known throughout the country. His specialty is Quranic Arabic, which he studied and now teaches at his institute, Deen Akademie, founded in 2020. Since 2018, he has been the spokesman for the Muslim civil rights organisation, Federal Islamic Union.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
the atmosphere is moving towards a certain direction Hitler 2.0 maybe 20 years ago is
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nowadays acceptable the afd a farri party gaining something like 21% of the popular
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vote what we found here in in the last elections in July the Muslim Community came together and actually voted as one block did we see anything near that in
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the German scene not at all not not even an effort the history of Germany after World War
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II is um complicated Germany considers it a duty to guarantee the safety of
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Israel at the time of recording the German election results have just been announced
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with an extraordinary result for the far right afd party coming second in the in the bundestag
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the Parliamentary elections with 20% of the popular vote mostly in the east of the country
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but also among some voters surprisingly younger voters in the west the opposition CDU party led
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by fedick MZ is heading for victory but will have to make deals with either its traditional
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opposition the sdp led by the former Chancellor Schultz or minority parties the afd openly calls
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for re repatriation of non-germans and by German they mean a cultural and ra racial understanding
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Elon Musk has supported the afd speaking at one of its rallies it is avowedly anti-islam
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in particular and would desire a Germany free of Muslims so how do Muslims in Germany respond to
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these unprecedented and possibly difficult times to come now we have the pleasure of having Marcel
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CR with us today marel crass converted to Islam in 1995 at the age of 18 since 2007 he has been
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active in German dawa and alhamdulillah well known all over the country his speciality is
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quranic Arabic which he studied and teaches at his Institute dean Academy that he founded in 2020
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since 2018 he is the spokesman of the Muslim civil rights organization Federal Islamic Union uh maram
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alayum and welcome to the thinking Muslim brother well it's it's so wonderful about your you've come
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to to see us today I mean it's the day after the night of the election alhamdulillah it's uh it's really uh fabulous to have you with us um so let's really start with those parliamentary results uh
Parliamentary Results – AfD
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of last night surprising results for for some the afd a far right party gaining something like 21%
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of the popular vote um just give me your your basic perspective on the results of last night
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please actually the result wasn't surprising for me at all really because uh I could see
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the development over the past 10 years you can say and um right-wing politics became more and
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more mainstream what was considered um Hitler 2.0 maybe 20 years ago is nowadays acceptable
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so um I wasn't surprised by the results and even two or 3 months ago um the estimations regarding
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the afd were around 20% and uh then we saw what happened during the past two or three months
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several terrorist attacked attacks um we suffered from in Germany and Austria and of course this
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gave uh another energy boost to rightwing parties so I was happy that the afd won only 20% and not
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22 or 25% yeah my my expectation was a bit higher I mean I had to look at the afd manifesto and I
AfD anti-islam
3:53
was extremely perplexed or surprised by some of the very open Islam phobia in in that I mean I
4:01
I just read out there's a section titled Islam does not belong to Germany and uh they had uh
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some subp points suggesting that the minet and the Adan are symbols of Islamic Supremacy yeah um you
4:17
explain this strand of afd thinking why is it so anti-islam for example this phrase Islam doesn't
4:24
belong to Germany yeah this this is something that's under discussion in Germany for more than
4:30
10 years now right the former president of Germany Christian wolf he said 2012 Islam does belong to
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Germany he was the head of state at that time he was the president so um and immediately there was
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a discussion about that how can he say that and um some politicians from the CDU they said no
4:54
Islam doesn't belong to Germany maybe Muslims do belong to Germany but not Islam right um and
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then Angela Merkel who is more Muslim friendly you can say yeah she said Islam does belong to
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Germany and since then there is a discussion does belong to ger does Islam belong to Germany or not
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and uh usually from right-wing parties uh you will find them saying Islam doesn't belong to Germany
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whatever they mean by this because we all agree that we have Muslims living in Germany um a good
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number of them do have the German citizenship so what does that mean it's more like a slogan um but
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in case of the afd it's not just a slogan I mean they mean it they want to they want to BN minites
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they want to BN the Adan being called in public and um the cing public at the moment in Germany
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um in just a few cities for example in Cologne right uh the deet mosque it's the biggest mosque
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in Germany yeah uh they're allowed to call thean just for Friday Fray prayer okay but they got the
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permission from the from the city yeah um and even that was a hard Topic in Germany 2 years ago when
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they got the permission just to try it for one year to see how it works yeah um and it was all
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over the news uh erdogan will soon occupy Germany I you can laugh about it yeah but um this is the
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situation in Germany yeah and um but that what that's why I wasn't so surprised about um what
6:30
happened with the afd and about the result of the elections um because I I can see what's going on
6:37
in Germany yes um Islam does belong Islam belong to Germany or not Muslims are there and they are
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allowed to practice their religion there's hardly anything more to say about that but um
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still the discussion about an an empty phrase um Can mobilize voters for a right-wing party [Music]
Donate to Baitulmaal
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[Music]
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h oh
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[Music] I I I want to understand the motivation of party like afd of course you you talk about
Assertive Muslims in Germany?
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you mentioned that there were a Spate of terrorist attacks in the past few months yeah uh but apart
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from that is there a uh a sizable are there a sizable number of Muslims who are calling for more
8:20
Islam in German Society maybe Sharia or some CS or you know like is are there assertive Muslims that
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are provoking no this type of backlash not at all not at all um I think the the afd noticed that uh
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they can get some votes with um with islamophobic politics yeah I think that's uh that's all the
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situation in Germany changed drastically after September 11 this changed a lot of things this
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event in in particular and as you all know it was planned in Germany and Germany was upside
9:00
down in the aftermath of September 11 I talked to a police officer and uh she said she was a lady
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she said prior to September 11 we had an islamism Department in the police and there was only one
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guy working for it and he was about to retire right after September 11 now we have a in the same
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Department we have 50 people working only on this topic yeah so things things changed drastically
9:29
after September 11 in 2006 for example they were in southern Germany they tried to um uh to have
9:40
an immigration test for Muslims only for Muslims to want to get the German citizenship you have to
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answer 30 questions and one of the questions is for example what would you do if your son
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came home one day and said to you uh Mama I'm homosexual so this is a citizenship question yeah
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so you have to pass the test uh and I read the questions and I can say to you my own parents can
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be happy that they are already German citizens they wouldn't pass the test and conservative
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germanist wouldn't pass at all but this was only directed against Muslims and this was 2006 or 2007
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so it started already from 2004 to 2015 in some German states teachers were banned from uh wearing
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religious symbols like in France um and this of course it's like for example you a teacher wasn't
10:40
allowed to wear a cross but there are hardly any teachers in Germany wearing crosses I mean everybody understood it's a hijab ban and um this was from 2004 to 20 2015 uh until one sister went
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to the federal constitutional court and then the ban was lifted but why why did they do that
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because they noticed that you can gain votes if you do politics against Muslims after September
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11 everybody felt we have to do something against I mean this was planned under our own very eyes
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yeah uh so we have to do something about it and uh I think that's when it all started and
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then the afd was founded in 2011 or 12 maybe uh they entered the National German Parliament 200
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13 with 18% of the votes this was first time they entered the parliament with 18% and their
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whole politics I mean it's only about Islam and immigrants that's all that's uh so yeah you can
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gain votes and I think this is what uh what the U this is what why the afd is very consistent in
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their policy that's why they Target Muslims you can gain votes but it's not a real problem in
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Germany you mentioned something very interesting that they are very strong in Eastern Germany yes
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yeah and in Eastern Germany you will hardly find immigrants but people in Eastern Germany vote for
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the afd but why they don't see immigrants in the street but uh at the same time in Eastern
12:21
Germany you have a high unemployment rate and the afd is very clever they can they can paint
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a picture that you are unemployed because of the migrants and especially because of the Muslims they come to Germany they take our money they take our jobs so we will help you to solve your
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problems I mean how visceral is the hatred felt by some Muslims on the street like do do you find
Atmosphere for Muslims
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that attacks on you're you're part of a civil liberties organization are attacks on Muslims
12:51
on theise in in in uh parts of Germany like what's the general atmosphere I suppose for Muslims in en
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I have to say um you are still safe when you go out in public I have to say that um usually you
13:07
are not attacked just because you wear a hijab or something sometimes you might get some some hate
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comments this might happen but but in general it's okay yeah um but you can but still you can see the
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atmosphere is moving towards a certain direction um just one year ago a brother contacted me uh he
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was uh he was going to school and he said his uh he's banned from praying in school and prayer is
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something very simple I mean you 5 minutes uh just you pray somewhere and that's it it's not a big deal yeah but he he said his school doesn't allow Muslims to pray so he contacted us and I said okay
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no problem sent an email to our cver rights organization and I published it on Instagram
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in this same month we were contacted by 30 other Muslims in Germany and they said we have the same
14:05
problem we go to school and we are banned from praying right but why I mean what's the big problem with a prayer yeah prayer is just it's a very simple innocent symbol of Islam and um you
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can see that some Germans are a threet of it if it's connected with Islam we don't know it's it's
14:27
better we ban the prayer and School even 2018 there were discussions about banning the hijab
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in school for girls under 14 and so you can see it does have an impact on their on the political
14:40
discussion and um on the atmosphere and how people look at Muslims um but in terms of violence in the
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street I have to say in general alhamdulilla Germany is still a safe country I would say
Americans supporting AfD
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um what is uh really interesting about the last few weeks is that the Americans have weighed in
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to the election conversation um we've had Elon Musk of course who in effect is the day facto
15:09
prime minister now of America probably uh who has supported the afd and and I actually gave a speech
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at an afd rally with had vice president JD Vance who on a visit to Germany at the Munich Summit yes
15:22
uh he visited Alice widle who is the head of the uh afd the leader of the afd party and so there is
15:29
this sort of co- uh relationship I suppose between the Trump Administration and the afd do you have
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any thoughts on why they support the afd so openly first of all I thought that it's um because they
15:44
their way of thinking is similar because Trump is considered um also a right-wing politician yeah um
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also he is talking about illegal immigrants and that's one of his his main topics so um
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both of them seem to be in line with each other the IFD and the Trump Administration
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but still I was puzzled um from the way they openly supported the afd yeah Ela musy posted
16:13
almost daily something on on a about the afd and so any any intelligent German should vote
16:20
for the afd I mean why do you care about Germany and the German government you spending a lot of
16:27
time on British missins for a while so he went to you he for a month and then then he went to
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German Muslims so we saved you you save us maybe maybe but still I couldn't make sense of it then
16:42
I I personally thought that maybe this has to do with uh America's changing stance on Russia yeah
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um and uh seems to me that President Donald Trump he tries to form an uh an alliance with Russia
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and um the afd is the only major pro-russian party in Germany there is another small party
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it's called BSW but they're not so strong and they failed to enter the parliament but the afd is very
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strong and very popular so I thought maybe they would um they would prefer a German governments
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uh govern a German government with a pro- Russian policy that's what I thought that's it's probably
Other parties and AfD
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quite quite true I mean it it seems to me that um that level of support that the Americans have
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given uh the afd it's almost um to undermine the established parties uh let's talk about
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then the the possibilities of what happens next because the CDU is uh now the largest
17:49
party with something like 28 29% of the popular vote um but they need to form a coalition as if
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as is the system in in in in Germany with one of the other parties so most likely it will be
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with the uh uh the sdp party the uh party of schz who was the former Chancellor um explain this um
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firewall idea why the established parties would never make relations with uh the afd and if you
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feel that's going to change anytime soon I I think it will change in the near future yeah but uh to
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understand the firewall you you need to go back in German history yeah uh as I mentioned 20 years ago
18:37
it was impossible to have a mainstream right-wing party in Germany was out of discussion at least
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not on the national level some federal states they did have once or twice a right-wing party
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in their parliaments but um to have a a mainstream right-wing party like the afd yeah this was um
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this was inconceivable and um when the afd became stronger and stronger uh this triggered a lot uh
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uh this triggered a lot of protests against the afd for example end of January there was
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a discussion in the German Parliament and the afd voted together with the CDU for a certain
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law um against immigrants and uh to restrict the immigration to Germany to close the borders
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something like this I mean something that's in line with their policy yeah and naturally the afd
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voted with the CDU only this fact that the the afd sided with the CDU this triggered a protest in in
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Hamburg with I think 200,000 people so after after World War II every right-wing party was considered
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a resurrection of Hitler and um this especially in Germany is a you don't want to have anything
20:07
to do with NA national socialists with uh World War II with the German r at that time um and uh
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that's why the established parties always try to distance themselves from right-wing policies
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because uh you might lose a good number of of your own voters if you go together with
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the rightwing parties but that's the current situation and that's why uh Frederick nuts
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said several times before the election we will never never ever form a coalition with the afd
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right so because um everybody was afraid what happens now is it really true that 70 years
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or 80 years after World War II there is again a right-wing Party part of the government in
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Germany I mean how could this happen and um um so that's why the established parties are very
21:03
careful now but I think in four years when the afd becomes more and more mainstream and they
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have become already like a mainstream party I think things will change can I ask you about
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the mainstreaming of the afd's ideas because my understanding is and it's similar across Europe
Embracing far-right policies?
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and we certainly see that here in Britain um as the right take uh voters away from the
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established parties the established parties begin to mimic yeah uh the the right-wing party the far
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right party is that happening in in Germany and and can you give examples of of where the CDU
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and maybe even the sdp have Embrace some of the policies of of uh the far right um there are some
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examples um and you can see it in Germany after the afd entered the German Parliament in 2013
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um as I mentioned 2018 there were discussions about banning hijab in school but why it's not
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because there were some problems that there were some young girls um complaining to their teachers we are forced to wear hijab please can you help us it's not that something like this happened this
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was only to show to the general public hey we do something against Islam you don't have to vote for
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the afd we have um a very strange law in Germany that sisters with nikab are banned from driving a
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car driving a car they can wear in the street yes they canar yeah they wanted to b c in the
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streets but that's impossible due to the German Constitution um what's why cars why cars it was
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the only the only situation where it was possible to ban the nikab because they said okay maybe the
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driver will cause an accident or he will get a speeding ticket and we need to identify the driver
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so it was a tricky way um and the law doesn't say that uh uh the driver must wear the it says uh the
23:07
driver is not allowed to cover his face but of course everybody understands and even the media they say it's n ban so it's very clear what this is about but why do they make a problem out of
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that this was after the afd entered a parliament and um they wanted to show to the public hey no
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need to vote for the FD I mean we are on your side we are doing everything everything we can
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against uh Islam uh also the um does Islam belong to Germany or not this was even a discussion in
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Germany uh half a year ago um and um this is all because uh they tried to as you said mimic the
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right-wing parties Angela Merkel uh was the former Chancellor leader of the CDU and um
Angela Merkel’s Germany gone?
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you know we can complain about some of her policy here here and there but we missed her really she
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had a very open door policy towards syrians a million plus syrians and you know she pushed
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back against the racism that came out at that time and it was you know a fairly across Europe we were
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seeing uh Wars going up yet in Germany uh in this Embrace of of migration and embrace of syrians um
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has that version of Germany disappeared not yet um um the CDU wants wants this version of Germany to
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disappear so the same party of Angela Mercury is really exactly yeah yeah and uh and even
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Angela Merkel she complained about Fick MZ and uh yeah which is unusual I mean she's not she's not
24:49
involved in politics anymore but uh she's she's the former Chancellor so it was unexpected that
24:56
that she would say something about M but this was a a parliamentary motion that was recently passed
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I think and exactly uh and the file was somewhat cracked by okay yes yes exactly that's what uh
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that's what she talked about right and um CDU the CDU and the afd want this version of Germany to
25:19
disappear but it's not that easy because um in general once you reach the German border
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and you just scream Asylum this means you have filed for Asylum and then you are allowed to enter
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and a court has to decide on your application yeah and this might take up to 2 3 years and until then
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you are fine in Germany and even some of the immigrants are can start working it depends on
25:52
on their cases but it's not that easy you cannot simply close the border because still we have a
25:58
con institution and if there is someone uh who is a refugee and uh you still have to decide whether
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he is a legal Asylum Seeker or not yeah so um it's now what it's right ring um speech that they close
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the border and we will save you from immigrants but um I want to see that in future how they want
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to do that practically it's not that no no even many things that the afd says for example Banning
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the minates or the call of I mean uh still in Germany you are not allowed uh to discriminate
26:32
against the religion uh and uh the same happened to to the hijab band for teachers there's one
26:39
German sister she went to the highest court and they said well what are you doing there I mean she's you cannot just ban a religious practice in Germany I would like to expand on this point
26:50
a little bit um Germany is unique in one regard when it comes to religion all over Europe you have
26:59
freedom of Faith yeah in all Western countries I think but in Germany you have you not only freedom
27:07
of Faith you have the freedom of practicing your religion so the government cannot ban the practice
27:18
of your religion just to give you an example in protests in Germany during a protest you're are
27:24
not allowed to cover your face that's a general law in Germany no one is allowed to cover his face on a public protest except sisters with nikab they are the only exception because nikab is considered
27:38
a religious practice so the religious pra practice takes precedence over the B of covering your face
27:47
because it's a constitutional provision exactly because it's mentioned in the Constitution right
27:53
freedom of Fai is of course it's mentioned in I think in any constitution of a way government but the freedom to practice your religion is guaranteed by the Constitution in
28:05
Germany uh that's why you can't ban a prayer in school we have been contacted by so many students
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and um it's it's not allowed in Germany uh you cannot fire someone from his job from from her
28:17
job because she's wearing a hijab or something um that doesn't work in Germany um so the the the
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freedom to practice your religion is guaranteed in Germany that's why many things that the afd is
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promising to the public won't work out you cannot ban minates it's a it's a religious symbol and uh
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what can they do about it and if they ban minates the the law would have to ban religious towers for
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all religious communities for example Church Towers or if if a synagogue does have a tower
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they would have to ban that as well so with with these very strong constitutional Provisions it
German Muslims thinking
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it seems to me that the Muslim Community uh like maybe in Britain or in America uh would have very
29:07
strong organizational capacity and would use the legal system very effectively to to seek
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their rights I mean how would you uh depict the the currence or frame of thinking of the Muslim
29:19
Community there in in Germany in Germany we have I think around 6 million Muslims many
29:25
more than here yes yeah yeah uh so maybe 6 to 8% of the German population are Muslims now the vast
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majority of them are Turkish immigrants they came to Germany in the 1960s yeah when uh when
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Germany um established a guest worker program so they wanted to hire workers from outside Germany
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because there was a huge demand and um Germany did have strong historical ties with the turkey
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going back to the Ottoman Empire so they invited uh people from Turkey to come to Germany and work
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there and many of them did I think maybe two or three millions just came from Turkey to Germany
30:12
with the idea in mind to stay in Germany for 5 to six years and then go back to to Turkey and enjoy
30:19
life but what happened is they came to Germany and stayed there
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but of course if you plan to go back to your home country then um you just survive in Germany you
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form your own little Community um so Turkish immigrants gathered in certain areas in Germany
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they go to work together they speak Turkish and um having a mind going back to Turkey within
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short time but this generation stayed in Germany and um the Next Generation and the generation
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afterwards we have now the third generation of Turkish immigrants and still you can see that
31:08
um that the Turkish immigrant Community is like a Universe on its own it's not so easy to enter
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when I converted to Islam in uh in the 1990s I entered a Turkish mosque and fell like an alien
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and up to this day you find the third generation still speaking Turkish among each other and um
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so this means they they have they have strong cultural ties to their Turkish Heritage which
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I feel sometimes prevents them from thinking about or looking at the situation in Germany
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I'm sometimes under the impression that it's more important for some of them who is going
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to be the next May in Istanbul than who is going to be the next m in your country in in your own City so yeah it's um now things change a little bit but um we don't have so many Muslims in
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Germany who are focused on their situation in Germany this changes now with more and more
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converts coming to this religion um number one and number two of course the third generation
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of immigrants um they become more and more German even if they speak German uh if they speak Turkish
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um they are fluent in German they are the first generation I feel who uh who go to universities
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the first generation they they had no opportunity I think this is also a difference between Germany
32:48
and England I think the um immigrants in Germany in England uh at least they were able to speak
32:54
English immigrants from Bangladesh from India from Pakistan um the immigrants to
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Germany uh they only spoke Turkish so that made it hard for them to start so but what they did
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is they established a good network of mosqu of Turkish mos in Germany now we have around
33:13
2,500 mos in Germany 900 of them are under the supervision of dianet of uh religious yeah yes
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exactly from Turkey so that's what they did and alhamdulillah we all have to thank them for that
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but as I said it's like a Universe on its own and this is 60% of the Muslim population in
33:35
Germany others are students uh from Muslim countries um I would say more than 25 or 30
33:43
Muslim countries they come to Germany some of them marry in Germany and then they stay
33:49
there um but still they are it's easier for them to discuss politics in Palestine
33:57
or Morocco than than having a a talk with him about um the German Parliament or the
34:03
next election yeah I mean what what we found here in in the last elections in July is uh the Muslim
Muslim community vote
34:10
Community came together yeah and and and actually voted generally speaking as one block um and and
34:18
yes you know Palestine had a very big say in in that conversation about who to elect and who to
34:23
vote for uh but there was a unification of of of voting behavior Med let's say for those of you
34:29
those Muslims who did vote similar in America yeah uh in in the last elections did we see anything
34:35
near that in in on in the German scene not at all not not even an effort to unify the vote of the
34:44
Muslim Community actually when I when I heard about that in England um uh I started dreaming
34:53
about that in Germany but it it will require a lot of work uh first of all to to unify the different
35:01
opinions um in Germany uh believe it or not you have a good number of Muslims voting for The
35:08
afd yes exactly the afd so how how come I mean uh but it is what it is um so what's the Russian now
35:24
what what's the Russian that's a good question yeah um number one some of the Muslims feel that
35:31
uh that the afd is targeting immigrants from Syria and Afghanistan maybe so they're not affected by
35:41
by it although they say Islam doesn't belong to Germany but they feel it's it's more directed
35:46
towards Syria and Afghanistan a good number of immigrants from the past 10 or 15 years came from
35:53
these two countries Afghanistan and Syria yeah so this is number one and number two to uh the afd
35:59
is the only party who is um considered a symbol of family values that uh traditionalism um a man
36:11
will go to a woman and found a family and they have children something like this um so that's
36:19
why they say okay we have enough of all this LGBT what what's going on with this LGB BT Community
36:28
during the past 10 or 15 years we want to go back to to normal living right uh and that's why I know
36:35
some Muslims they say okay the the afd is the only party who can save us even though the Alis
36:42
white be head of the afd is let's say not from a traditional family not at all how to make sense
36:48
of this I don't know um but in general this is not a topic in Germany it's not you cannot attack
36:57
German politician uh on um on his way of living yeah uh if he wants to he can live his private
37:07
life the way he wants this is not a topic in in in political debate so that's why I think she's
37:14
she's more or less safe because she know she knows she cannot be attacked on that ground so she it's
37:20
known in Germany um but still I don't know how how she could make it uh to the head of this party
37:28
do do German uh politicians not worry about their soft power image around the world I
German politicians image
37:35
mean I remember when Angela Merkel uh embraced Syrian refugees there was this feeling amongst
37:42
Muslims in Arab countries in non-arab countries around the world but Germany was this civilized
37:47
state it was a it was a a European power that you know U uh we share values with and there was this
37:56
appreciation of the gesture of of Angela Merkel I I remember listening on radio in fact there was a
38:02
Syrian refugee who was crossing by foot across Europe and he was ask you are you why not go
38:07
to Britain as a British journalist he said no Britain is the is the country of syes Pico they cved up how but Germany has always been our friend from the ottoman days to today they've been our
38:18
friends now that image is of course diminishing uh because of the rise of the afd and as you said
38:24
the mainstreaming of afd ideas do they not worry about about that soft image a soft power image who
38:31
the Germans German politicians yeah the German politicians um I'm not sure if they worry about
38:38
that you are quite right that uh Germany is uh is a popular country um in the Muslim World um
38:46
German I think is the only Western power who has never colonized Muslim lands exactly so uh and um
38:55
in general when I travel to Muslim countries in travel a lot I find Muslims uh appreciating that
39:01
and they said okay when there is no reason for amn between US and Germany uh because we have
39:07
there's no reason to be in Conflict at all and um but I'm not sure if German politicians worry about
39:18
the image of Germany in Muslim countries yeah um I think sooner or later will say let them let them
39:28
think whatever they want but uh in Germany uh you see the PO the the public opinion shifting towards
39:37
the right so and at the end of the day we have to win the elections so uh if right- ring politics
39:46
will get us some votes they will go for it um can I turn to Palestinian activism in in Germany of
Palestinian activism
39:54
course we've had um reminders of last year and a half that Germany in some ways has been a hostile
40:01
place for Palestinian activism and protests and demonstrations um we had a guest on this program
40:09
in fact who talked about how difficult it is to to even organize a protest in some of the the main
40:16
cities yeah uh in Germany I mean what what lies behind uh this antipathy towards the Palestinian
40:24
cause in in Germany what lies behind that yeah uh what lies behind that is one simple or not so
40:31
simple word it's the German stats and it's usually translated as reason of State although although
40:41
the definition is the primary interest of the state the primary goal or the purpose of the state
40:49
right this is um I think you you won't find this word in other countries because you usually it's
40:57
taken for granted what's the primary goal of the state it wants to protect its citizens and wants
41:03
them to flourish and uh defend defend them against outside attacks so there's no need to mention that
41:11
and all of this is true for the for the German State as well but there is more to it and this
41:16
is uh this has to do with uh the German past especially World War II and the time of national
41:23
socialism in Germany now the German Constitution is very young It Was Written I think 1949 and so 4
41:34
years after World War II and the founding fathers of this German Constitution they always had in
41:41
mind to make sure that something like national socialism will never ever emerge from Germany
41:50
again and when you read the Constitution you have to keep this in mind otherwise you willon will not
41:57
make sense from some points that are written in the Constitution for example the first sentence
42:03
of the German Constitution is conscious of their responsibility towards God this is the preamble of
42:13
the Constitution conscious of their responsibility towards God now why does the does the Constitution
42:24
of a secular State mention a responsibility towards God Germany is a secular State and God
42:31
here does not refer to a person that has the right to be worshiped it's not in a religious sense they
42:38
put it in the Constitution and you can read it in the commentary on the Constitution they put it there because after World War II the founding fathers they faced the situation that during the
42:51
time of Hitler legally everything was correct what he did he was the elected Head of State uh
43:01
he was allowed to pass laws the German courts issued verdicts in accordance with the law and
43:08
the people were happy with it so technically it was legal yeah it was legal but still it was bad
43:15
but how can you say it was bad it was evil if it was if it was legal so the founding fathers of
43:23
the Constitution said there must be something more to it than just being legal or in um in compliance
43:29
with the Constitution so they put the sentence there conscious of their responsibility towards
43:35
God I.E conscious of of a being of a higher moral Authority who can set limits that you cannot cross
43:47
that's the idea behind it there are certain moral values that uh you can that are unchangeable you
43:53
cannot touch them uh even if the people age on it um if the Hat of State uh is fine with it certain
44:02
moral values do not change and there are evil in and of themselves not because people say it but
44:08
because there is a higher moral Authority which is God not in a religious sense but in this sense
44:15
so that's um that was the first sentence that's surprising in the German Constitution you find
44:22
other things written there for example at article number six care and upbringing of the children is
44:28
the natural right of the parents it's taken for granted I mean who else is taking care of
44:33
the children I mean in any country of the of the world if at all you can pass a law saying that but why do we have to put it in the Constitution they put it there because in the time of Hitler
44:43
he formed an organization called the Hitler Youth and the sole purpose of this organization was to
44:50
collect all the children from the German parents and educate them in a national socialist way so
44:56
to take the education away from the parents and um let the government take care of educating the
45:03
children so they wrote a the Constitution having this in mind and from that they came up with this
45:12
idea of a of a reason of State the purpose of the state one of the purposes of the German state is
45:18
not only to protect German citizens it is also to make sure that National Socialist ideal will never
45:28
come up again in Germany and um that's you can say it's part of the yeah the the reason of State part
45:39
of the reason of state is also I mean what was um what was the the primary target of Hitler's policy
45:49
they were the Jews yes and uh the what he did to them I mean is beyond imagination there is no
45:56
discussion about that so part of the of the reason of state became protecting Jewish Jewish life and
46:04
the representation of Jewish life is of course the israelian state yeah this I mean this state that
46:11
emerged in order to protect Jewish life so Germany considers it a duty to guarantee the safety of
46:20
Israel although it's um it's another country and 4,000 kmers away but the reason of State
46:28
is also to protect Israel and that's what made the whole situation very complicated in Germany
46:36
you see things going on in the past 14 month in Palestine that um I mean that clearly go
46:43
against international law and also against moral values conscious of their responsibility towards
46:51
God you normally Germany should condemn at least some of the things that that that are going on
46:58
in Palestine bombing of H hospitals killing of children but it was very hard for them and you
47:05
can see it in the press conferences when they were asked these questions a number of times but they always Tred to avoid the question or say yes Israel does have the right to defend itself
47:14
no one is asking you to to condemn Israel maybe but at least say something about what's going
47:20
on there I mean it's easy for you to condem Russia if they bomb one single Hospital why can't you say
47:27
something about bombing more than 100 hospitals but it's the reason of State it's um it's a
47:33
mindset you can say when you enter German politics um that you can only understand if you if you look
47:40
at the German Past after World War II that's that's fascinating so this historical debt you
Freedom of speech
47:46
can say that the Germans have towards the Jews uh that has extended itself now to in effect um um
47:55
being silent and complet licit at at what the state of Israel is doing at the moment I mean
48:01
I've heard stories of Palestinian activists who have lost jobs and who have been estranged from
48:08
Civic Society because of uh uh very light um you know remarks and protests um in solidarity with
48:16
Palestinians can you can you shed some light on on you know that aspect of of activism what
48:23
this what the sister said to you was right um the situation in Germany after October 7 became very
48:31
difficult in terms of freedom of speech right um for example the city of hambur tried to ban
48:37
All Pro Palestinian protests and brothers and sisters there had to go to the court and finally
48:43
the ban was lifted but at least some cities triy to do that um just the sentence from The River To
48:50
The Sea could get you in jail in some areas in Germany there some courts voted for a ban some
48:57
against so it was um was under discussion but it was critical just saying a simple sentence uh some
49:04
protests uh banned the Palestinian flag or kfia kfia was banned in some schools even my own son
49:13
he got in trouble because one day he showed up in school with a kfia and uh a teacher approached him
49:18
and he he asked him he's 17 years old he asked him what do you think maybe you have a Jewish Jewish
49:26
student here in school and uh he's a fright of you do we think it's a good idea to wear C here so
49:34
in general you can see that uh freedom of speech and the freedom of expression was uh I mean they
49:41
tried everything they could to restrict that and of course this also has an effect on uh on your
49:48
daily life and even um even your job in a private company maybe you see in Germany especially after
49:56
World War II not only after World War II um the worst human being is someone who is anti-Semitic
50:05
yeah uh and if you're Pro Palestinian you are at least on the verge of being anti-semitic and it's
50:15
um it's easy even even some Jewish organizations face some problems and they are considered now
50:24
anti-semitic although they came out and say just we want um we we condemn what's going on there on
50:32
um on the grounds of the international law and uh these are atrocities against mankind so how
50:39
can we how can we keep silent on that even Jewish organizations uh are now considered
50:45
anti-semitic just because of that so um the the history of Germany after World War II is um is a
50:55
bit complicated you can say to say the least uh I can understand that to certain extent because
51:04
World War 2 was something different and Hitler was something different um but during the past 14
51:10
month I said this is too much this is really too much um at least you can um you can say something
51:20
against the atrocities or at Le people let people protest but um it was difficult in Germany and
51:27
a good number of brothers and sisters had to go to the court to get some of their serious bands lifted now so we have many non-muslim viewers and I I suspect this show will attract a number
What can Islam bring to Germany?
51:37
of German viewers and um sometimes with this um let's call it to the this anger or hatred
51:45
towards Muslims in Islam that may come from the far right Muslims May tend to internalize this
51:51
hatred and put up the barriers and and sometimes display uh you know a an aspect to themselves of
51:59
themselves which may uh further provoke I suppose the uh this sort of hatred towards them um from
52:07
your perspective you're a convert to Islam you're someone who carries daa in in Germany who invites
52:12
Germans to to Islam um you've you know this debate you've you've talked about today is Islam
52:19
compatible with German Society what can Islam bring to Germany just spell out for me you know
52:26
be uh the the relationship you believe that Islam should have with Germany I think I think Germany
52:35
is uh I think Islam is very compatible with Germany especially with Germany because German
52:43
guarantees the freedom of religion yeah so uh I see no reason at all why Islam and Islamic life
52:52
in Germany should not be compatible with uh uh White Islam should not be compatible with a German
52:58
Society um you mentioned something that um that the far right atmosphere and the hatred towards
53:06
Islam sometimes uh provokes a behavior from Muslims uh just to go against it and that's also
53:16
what I what I see in Germany the more hatred is deed is displayed towards Islam the more it pushes
53:27
some brothers towards extremist views we have to do something against it I
53:32
mean they all hate us uh they are all our enemies and they quote some verses from
53:38
the Quran and so on so um this sometimes made makes the situation in Germany more
53:48
critical you can say um but in general I have to say that uh the vast majority of Muslims
53:56
um they live with this situation um and um this hatred towards Islam didn't change so much in
54:08
the public behavior of the Muslims only some of them they turned to to strange ideas that
54:14
shouldn't be supported but um Muslims in Germany in general just try to practice their religion
54:21
they go to the mosque and they live their daily life and that's it uh is there another side to
54:26
does this atmosphere Force some Muslims to uh to dispense with their Islam and to and to become
54:33
less devout um some of them yes and I can see that in the questions that I receive uh for example
54:41
sisters asking me um uh in winter time when we are uh in the city center do we have to pray in public
54:50
or can we wait until the evening when we come back home because we don't feel safe um and this
54:57
is of course due to the atmosphere in in Germany especially the sisters they um they feel um unsafe
55:05
uncomfortable when they go out in public um yeah even if they are not under attack but still as
55:12
I said you get comment from time to time and um this makes some of them feel insecure yes I can
55:21
uh I can see that in Germany earlier on I asked a question about the organizational capacity of
Muslims organising?
55:26
Muslims in Germany and and our ability to come together on critical issues like the election um
55:33
do you feel there's room for Muslims to organize themselves and you know the next election that
55:38
comes in what four years time yeah uh will there be uh as as it Dawns on Muslims by the far right
55:47
are are on the March will there be a greater uh initiative I suppose amongst Muslims in Germany
55:53
to to come together that's what I hope for right um because um now things are are becoming more
56:02
and more critical with the afd being the second party in the parliament uh and being in General
56:09
on the rise so what I do expect in four years time the afd could be the strongest party yeah
56:17
that's what I what I'm afraid of and I hope I hope that Muslims will come together now and talk about
56:26
that what can we do about this situation you see sometimes when I go to uh to Muslim countries they
56:32
ask me how many Muslims do live in Germany and they expect something like 50,000 when I tell
56:38
them we are five or six millions they cannot believe that five or six millions that's a
56:46
whole country you can say yeah uh but why do they think we're only 50 or 60,000 because we're um we
56:56
look weak from outside um and I think this is due to various reasons number one I mentioned already
57:05
that uh Muslims in Germany unfortunately do not focus as much on the situation in Germany as
57:12
they should um number two uh we still have ongoing debates in Germany over centuries old issues and I
57:24
think you sometimes some of these debates you do have or did have them in the past in England as
57:30
well for sure yeah and um this is uh this makes it difficult to come together um and I I don't know
57:42
if there will be ever an end to these debates I mean they have not been resolved for 1,000 years
57:48
so what can we do about it and the greatest col set together so um yeah but I see some
57:56
some some brothers just love to engage in these debates um maybe with a good intention I don't
58:02
want to doubt that but um it makes it difficult to come together yeah um I try to promote a different
58:11
idea for the past years um to uh to accept that uh there are difference among Muslims uh to to agree
58:21
to disagree uh this won't change uh no matter how much we debate on Tik Tok it will be like that and
58:28
even the greatest scholars in the past couldn't do very much about that they wrote books I mean with
58:33
strong arguments but still we do have different groups and different views so this is this issues
58:43
cannot be resolved but we can do something about our situation in Germany um but we need to to
58:52
cultivate an atmosphere amongst Muslims that uh we first of all see our Muslim brother uh and maybe
58:59
we disagree on him with with him on something and that's fine uh at the end of the day we will both
59:06
stand in front of Allah and I hope to go to Jenna together with him and that's it uh but here in in
59:15
this world in Germany we should we should be able to come together uh and do and do take care of our
59:24
own interests we are so many musl in Germany just imagine what would be possible in Germany if um
59:31
we just manage to unite our voice our voices not to agree on everything that we discuss just leave
59:39
the discussion um but there are there are things we all agree on when we talk about minates and
59:45
public ad this is something I mean that we all share uh so why can't we work together on that
59:53
and if that means that we have to to stop some of these useless discussions that won't be resolved
1:00:00
anyways then let's stop and sit together and um appreciate our Muslim brothers and sisters can I
1:00:10
uh finally ask you about your that activities in in Germany your invitation activities because it
Dawah activities
1:00:17
seems to me from fragments that I pick up uh on on the internet that um there is a alhamdulillah
1:00:24
there is a really good effort amongst uh non Muslims uh to introduce Islam to them and a good
1:00:33
number in fact i' I've noticed a good number of women are becoming Muslims in in Germany I'm not sure if that's a if that's statistically born out in in in the figures but um uh just like explain
1:00:44
to us for for Outsiders who really haven't really got a a good understanding of the the Dynamics of
1:00:50
the German Muslim Community how significant uh that conversion activity is in Germany
1:00:56
first of all what I can confirm and it's proven by statistics is that the majority of congs are women
1:01:02
W yeah seven or eight out of 10 you can say the vast majority are women it's somehow it's easier
1:01:09
for them to embrace Islam um but yeah that's that's true about the general conversion rate
1:01:17
I don't have uh reliable statistics about that um for the past 15 or 20 years I could say yes
1:01:27
there's a growing number of Germans uh embracing Islam uh I can see that I did have a good number
1:01:32
of conversations with them uh many of them called me and we took the shahada on the phone so there's
1:01:40
gen there's in general a movement in Germany you can say [Music] um what's the exact rate I'm not
1:01:48
sure about but [Music] um I mean the dawa is going on in Germany you can say yeah for sure that's for
AfD view on coverts
1:01:56
sure yeah yeah and maybe it's it's worth asking I mean parties like the afd and other rightwing
1:02:02
parties how do they view these uh converts to Islam because of course that's a very difficult um
1:02:09
U you know symbolically it's very difficult to to observe uh whites uh Germans becoming Muslim I'm
1:02:18
not sure about the party itself but I can talk about the voters because I meet them from time to time on X and uh they consider me a traitor traitor yeah really definitely yeah yeah for sure
1:02:30
yeah um they uh you should stick to your cultural heritage um and in their view Islam is totally
1:02:41
incompatible with with a German culture so it belongs to the Middle East and if you want to be a
1:02:49
Muslim go to a Muslim country and live there uh if you if you want to live under Sharia law then why
1:02:56
don't you go there this is uh these are typical sentences that that you hear that you hear from
1:03:01
right ring voters but culturally you are German y I'm 100% German I even didn't change my name
1:03:10
it's still Marcel it's one of the most frequent questions that I'm ask uh what's her Islamic
1:03:15
name it's Marcel yes and um and and that's because for our viewers there's no expectation to change
1:03:21
one's name one no not at all even not to not to change your culture uh except what um what's not
1:03:29
compatible with Islam of course there are certain things not allowed that do belong to to the German
1:03:35
culture yeah but um why should anyone care you even have Germans who don't eat pork because
1:03:41
they are vegetarian uh a good friend of mine in school uh all of a sudden he stopped drinking
1:03:48
alcohol because because he said it's it's not healthy so and he stopped so and if I do it for
1:03:54
religious reasons uh why should you care I mean it's uh uh Live and Let Live it's very easy um but
1:04:03
especially for the rightwing um people Islam is is considered the enemy uh the enemy from the East
1:04:11
trying to take over Germany uh maybe they think about the Battle of of Vienna 500 years ago when
1:04:19
when Austrian soldiers defeated the Ottoman Empire I don't know this is very strange to explain in
1:04:27
Germany but in general people don't recognize me as a Muslim in the street they consider me just
1:04:32
a normal German guy I say hello goodbye thank you how are you that's it marel I think that's been a
1:04:40
fascinating conversation I know I could probably continue for another hour but I know you need to catch a flight back to Germany so may Allah reward you and and the efforts of the the brothers and
Hopeful?
1:04:51
sisters in in Germany and unify the community in I mean are you hopeful you next 5 10 years about the
1:05:01
Muslim Comm am I am I am for two reasons number one for the past five or six years I noticed more
1:05:08
about Muslims being tired of these debates um so there's a growing number of Muslims who say
1:05:16
Okay um let's just let's try to live together uh this is number one and number two um now
1:05:25
we have uh the afd coming out very strong from the elections right um and there is a conversation
1:05:32
amongst Muslims who think about leaving the country because of the afd uh and I think
1:05:39
no why should you I mean we can be very strong in Germany if we manage to unify our voices so
1:05:48
um I hope that more and more Muslims will realize that and um yeah I hope one day our voice will be
1:05:59
unified in I should have asked you this actually um one of the afd and I I heard Alice W say that
1:06:05
uh those 1 million Syrian Muslims now that Syria is safe which of course is you know debatable but
1:06:11
now that Syria is safe um they should return back to have we seen some movement of syrians to return
1:06:18
back do you know only very few of them went back um what I noticed in General that they they want
1:06:27
to wait a little bit uh and see how things develop in Syria because as you know 10 years ago things
1:06:33
were um the situation was different there so um and I'm not sure if there will be a considerable
1:06:41
movement in in the near future yeah um because a good number of syrians set themselves up in
1:06:48
Germany and live their life there so I'm not sure if they will go back to Syria yeah um let's see
1:06:55
let's see M I'm I'm really um thankful for your time today thank you so much I have to thank
1:07:02
you please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube
1:07:08
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