Ep 188. - Understanding HTS and the New Syria with Bilal Abdul Kareem
Syria is now free. But what does the future hold for a revolution that we believed had all but been decimated? The most recent spectacular offensive has given the rebel groups control over the country's major cities. There now is an appetite for change and unity. I have been struck by the jubilation felt by most Syrians as the tyrant fell. Many who escaped his brutality are returning. The optimism has to be maintained, and the positivity it expresses should not be replaced with the pessimism shown by some partial commentators who are wishing for Syria to fail.
But challenges remain. How do we navigate these? And what of the people who are now at the centre of the new government? I have the pleasure of having Bilal Abdul Kareem on the show to help us understand the complexities of the road ahead and analyse the current players. Bilal Abdul Kareem is a video journalist who has been covering the conflict in Syria since 2012. He has produced reports for CNN, Channel 4, BBC, and Sky News and runs his own news channel, On The Ground News.
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Transcript: This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversationIntroduction
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at that time there was Injustice there was indefinite detention and there was torture in the prisons we want him to be successful but success means delivering
0:09
Justice will there be Justice no ifs no ANS no but about it you're being too pessimistic
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and maybe you're undermining the Rebellion after Allah there's nobody that can hold it back not the US president not Netanyahu not anybody else I said was Central to the axis
0:26
of resistance again soon this revolution is about much more than just Abu Muhammad
0:33
jolani the best thing to happen is for somebody to tell Iran Haack your
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stuff Syria is now free but what does the future hold for a revolution that we believe had all but
0:48
been decimated the most recent spectacular offensive has given the rebel groups control
0:54
over the country's major cities then now is an appetite for Change and unity have been struck
1:00
by the Jubilation felt by most syrians as the Tyrant fell many who escaped his brutality and
1:06
now returning to the country the optimism has to be maintained and the positivity it expresses
1:13
should not be replaced with the pessimism shown by some partial commentators who are wishing for
1:19
Syria to fail but challenges remain how do we navigate these and what of the people who are
1:26
now at the center of the new government I have the pleasure of of having Bilal Abdul Karim on
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the show to help us understand the complexities of the road ahead and to analyze the current players
1:39
Bal Abdu Karim is a video journalist who has been covering the conflict in Syria since 2012
1:44
he has produced reports for CNN channel 4 BBC and Sky News and runs his own news channel on
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the ground news Bal joins us from Aleppo B ABD kimam alah and welcome to the thinking
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Muslim thanks for having me I really appreciate it well look it's uh it's really an honor to have
2:09
you with us because i' I've seen you over the years and and I think you've you've provided us an amazing service in understanding the uh the Civil War and understanding the different
2:19
players and I suppose today what I want to do is just get a a glimpse or understanding or snapshot of where we are at the moment and the challenges ahead as I've said now um
HTS ideology
2:30
let's talk about HTS uh the group at the center of this rebellion and now at the
2:36
center of the new government can you tell me more about the ideology of this group um
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and and in particular here in the west there's been conversations about its past and whether
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it's reformed sufficiently and whether it's uh reflective of the tapestry the rich tapestry
2:55
of Syrian Society or whether it reflects outside in interest so just give us an understanding of
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this group because you've you've lived under HTS in idlib and uh you've I think quite intimately
3:09
uh uh been involved with uh with reporting on on some of their um activities well uh
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firstly the first thing um is has a lot of good elements a lot of good elements but not all and
3:32
it has a lot of Reform that has to take place for it to be suitable for the huge Monumental task um
3:42
that's at hand because I'm I'm going to give it to you straight I'm not going to put any sugar or spice in it um do they have the ability to yes they do um but as I said some changes need to take
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place now previously um uh uh as everybody knows they were uh running uh idlib and the surrounding
4:02
areas but now that's uh fundamentally changed that they're running almost an entire country
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right now and I use the word almost because there are still Kurdish held areas which are um uh uh
4:14
outside of the control uh just yet but the entire country is basically uh under their uh Rule and
4:24
that means Abu Muhammad jolani we can't talk about Haan without talking about Abu Muhammad jolani um
4:30
jool lanni in my estimation um is somebody that's in need to reform his justice system
4:37
and if he does that if he does that then he has an opportunity that comes along maybe once in
4:44
every two three four or five lifetimes um however and he will have the support of the Syrian people
4:54
the umah and I can't tell you the sky is the limit if he chooses not to do that then he's
5:02
going to struggle firstly he's going to struggle from the decree of Allah and then secondly after
5:09
that there will be a constant battle and struggle between the authorities and the people the people
5:16
will not go back inshallah tala back to tyranny oppression and lack of justice so once again to
5:24
make it clear the the situation here is that if it's going to be in the direction
5:29
of justice and they've struggled to to deliver Justice to the people yes you can deliver
5:35
electricity yes you can deliver uh um um some so some social services yes you can deliver this or
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that but if you can deliver Justice to the people they will be with you if you deliver everything
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except Justice the people will never be with you and that's the reality of the situation here in Syria right now brother B I want to pick up on uh your what you mentioned ver of Justice and um
Justice – Islamic call
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uh we know that Justice is at the heart of Islamic governance and umam uh claim or want
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to be a group that uh calls for uh some form of Islamic core um when you were in idlib uh you were
6:16
a campaigner for prisoners rights I believe and U you shed light on um some injustices I suppose
6:23
that existed in in particular in in the prisons of itlp uh and they if I if I remember right if
6:31
I recall right you were arrested for that uh and imprisoned for a period of time just talk
6:36
me through that episode and and what you will call in for and some of the the dark spots that
6:42
you noticed in in their governance structure well the issue is that their feeling was that they uh
6:51
can take Extraordinary Measures because they're living in difficult times my position is that the
6:59
Prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam didn't tell us that Justice could be suspended when you think
7:04
that uh you're living under extraordinary times and then it can be restored when you think think
7:10
times are good that's what every uh dictator would say um they'd always say oh well you know
7:16
we've got some terrorists and we need to deal with some terrorists and some bad elements and some terrorists but that's just not how things go and you're not going to unify the people like
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that the people are not going to unify with a people who who are going to oppress them now
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I'm not going to say that ha as the leader of this uh uh new government is going to oppress
7:40
the people I am hoping I am praying and I am asking the people who are watching to hope and
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pray with me that they're going to deliver Justice to the people because if they do then all things
7:52
will be different inshallah tala but at that time there was Injustice there was indefinite detention
7:58
and there was to in the prisons right and that's just the reality of the situation it's been well
8:04
documented by Me by uh uh other people um as well and we're hoping and praying that that's not going
8:12
to continue but if it does continue then we're going to advise um Abu Muhammad jolani and if he
8:19
continues then we're going to get better people than us to advise Abu Muhammad jolani and if he
8:24
continues then we're going to then have to oppose him but we're not looking to oppose him we don't
8:31
want to oppose him we want him to be successful but success means delivering Justice and if there
8:38
is no justice then the success is just not going to happen so to what extent do you feel um there
Jolani – positive?
8:44
has been movement in a positive direction because of course I watched that interview
8:50
uh with uh Muhammed Abu Ahmed jolani on on CNN and I uh uh have heard some of his Snippets of
8:59
of conversations that he's had his his uh uh presentation at the omad Masjid for example
9:06
and the impression I get is uh that he wants to be inclusive and he wants to broaden the platform uh
9:15
from which he uh he governs and um he's met with and his group have met with leaders from within uh
9:23
the Muslim Community as well as Leaders outside the Muslim Community uh and and just generally
9:29
we we get the impression that uh in the last few years in idlib there has been um a a sea change
9:36
in terms of how uh the uh the administration functioned and services were delivered uh does
9:45
that amount to a movement in a positive direction from your side no and I'll tell you why yeah the
9:53
people don't care about inclusivity I'm going to say that again and some people not kind of
9:59
like what I just said people don't care that much about inclusivity we're going to include the Jews
10:05
we're going to include the Muslims we're going to include the Christians they don't care about that what they care about is that there's going to be just leadership and if there's just leadership
10:15
nobody's going to care I I if there are five Jews and five Muslims and three Christians and
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two uh uh um two people from from Turkey nobody's going to care about that it's going to come down
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to one thing and one thing only with will there be Justice if there will be they're telling man you
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can choose all the people that you want you can get whoever you want it doesn't make a difference to us and we don't even need to know their names that's how the people uh uh uh feel people are
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not going to care that they're from this community or that Community the issue is that when they feel an injustice has been taking place and then they call up on the phone and say listen AB Muhammad
10:53
look I got a problem here man your guys are off the hook um is he going to respond is he going
10:59
to straighten them out is he going to reprimand them is or put them on the right track that's
11:04
what people care about so I'm going to I'm going to tell you I've been in the mist of lands for more than 20 years I hear a lot of good talk and I'm not saying that what he's saying is just talk
11:13
I'm not saying that I am saying is that what he's saying sounds nice and we want to see it on the
11:19
ground and that's what's important and I want to reiterate one more thing one more time everybody
11:26
here in Syria wants him to succeed I am the first one I want him to win I want him to be successful
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in spearheading this whole thing because this ushers in a new era and we're ready and willing
11:40
to support anybody who's going to give the people Justice no ifs no ANS no buts about
11:48
it if he's going to do that then it's all in Bel I've heard on on social I've seen on social media
Bilal too pessimistic?
11:54
your detractors would argue that uh you're being too pessimistic and maybe you're undermining the
12:01
Revolution and the Rebellion uh by uh by raising these issues at this moment in time these justice
12:07
issues I mean how would you respond to to that uh I would respond uh with this what was this
12:14
revolution about Justice wasn't about anything else it was about Justice when the people had
12:21
no rights what's that Justice when they came out against Bashar assid because their their family
12:29
M were definitely detained what's that Justice when their family members were tortured and sah
12:35
and such like that what's that it's justice so all I'm saying is that first of all people talk about
12:41
pessimism brother I'm all in I'm fired up most nights I don't sleep more than three four hours
12:48
these nights why because we got work to do so I'm very very uh optimistic I I'm I'm more optimistic
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probably than anybody that you will talk to but also at the same time at 54 years old I've seen
13:03
a lot and I understand one thing if the people see that there's Justice and they're being just
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they're going to be all in but if they're not going to see that then people going to say what
13:16
was it for where are we going and you've got the Israelis who are pushing up and we're not going to
13:22
be able to repulse them except that we're going to do it together we have to do it together and we're
13:28
not going to be together if there isn't Justice if there is Justice who can hold back a nation of 26
13:34
million people who could do that except for Allah after Allah there's nobody that can hold it back
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not the US president not Netanyahu not anybody else can hold back a nation of 26 million people
13:47
who are saying the Israelis want to come in here well we ain't having it they won't be able to stay here we understand them very well but if we're going to be fighting amongst one another and
13:57
there justice but only Justice for some and some people can get away with this and okay nobody knows he's in the back go over there and teach him a lesson now we're not having that and
14:06
that's not where we're going with this whole thing so is there anybody out there who would say no Bel
14:11
we need to have some torture no would anybody come out and say well below um you know don't
14:18
bring these matters up now if you're not going to bring them up now then when now is the time
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to uh establish whom the Revolutionary forces are we are about Justice that's what it should
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be about first foremost and bottom line it's actually quite interesting um if you were you're
New Syria
14:38
currently in Aleppo or just outside of Aleppo in the countryside and um I would imagine that if you
14:44
were in a few weeks back in in USA territory and you were to speak like this you would be arrested
14:50
and and were into prison so there is obviously a a a a a different atmosphere in in uh in Syria today
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uh that uh allows someone like you uh to speak so openly uh and so strongly against against is
15:08
the wrong word but so openly for justice uh and to criticize um you know it that's positive that
15:16
seems very positive to me is that am I reading that right yeah absolutely well you see you've got the esset controlled areas and you also had the uh Rebel controled territory um I didn't have
15:27
to go to ESS control territories and open my mouth as soon as I showed up they say hey he's here you
15:35
know um they know very well the reporting that that I've been doing over the years excuse me
15:42
um at the Pentagon they know the reporting that I've been do doing over the years because they've
15:47
mentioned my names in press briefings so um Bashar assid would have loved to have had my brown self
15:55
pinned up in one of those cells somewhere and that doesn't sound like fun but the point of the matter here is is that yes absolutely I wouldn't be in um former essid control territories in been and
16:05
been able to speak so I spoke from the territories um where uh I was able to do that and we have to
16:14
now our Sofia has expanded and we want to gather all of the people here in Syria to Rally behind
16:24
the leadership here in Syria who's going in the direction of being in just that's what the goal is
Toleration of Journalists
16:31
that's great I suppose the point I'm making is is because there there is a tolerate a toleration of
16:37
of journalists like you and your ability to speak today and that that's that sounds very positive
16:43
to me um well yeah sure I mean at the end of the day if we you know I come from I'm the child of
16:53
slaves a slave is so much different from what's Happening Here a slave is somebody who doesn't
17:00
have any rights you don't even have the right to say hey stop beating me stop raping my wife you
17:07
don't have the right to say that's my wife don't put your hands on her so with that as a backdrop
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I don't I don't feel like I have the ability to not speak I have to or else what what the heck
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am I doing here you know what I'm saying I didn't get run out of New York I can go back to New York and R ride the five TR subway train and and and do my thing I before I came to Syria I was in a new
17:35
country every month whether it was India or Europe or or or China or wherever it was so if I'm not
17:42
going to speak if I'm not going to use my greatest weapon then dude what's it for uh let me ask
Capability to govern
17:50
you about the the the current government or the provision of government that's uh slowly coming
17:57
together now a couple of days ago Muhammad al- Basher was uh invited to lead that government as
18:04
the Prime Minister as the interim prime minister my understanding was that he ran uh the government
18:10
in idlib the administration in idlib um C can you tell us a little bit about uh Basher as well as
18:19
uh those around them in terms of their capability and capacity their ability to govern uh because of
18:25
course often the problem is that when you've got uh militias who form governments uh they don't
18:32
have the political expertise uh to govern Civil Society how do you um from your experience of of
18:40
the administration in ITB and and your reading of events how do you see this uh current interim
18:47
government proceeding I think that they have the ability uh to expand to their new role um
18:55
I think that they did a lot of good things in in idlib and establish institutions and such like
19:00
that so they understand that Dynamic and I think with the expansion it's going to uh uh attract
19:07
uh good people good thinkers um technocrats so I think that the potential for that to uh to happen
19:15
it's definitely there there's no question about it yeah and you know um on and the syrians have
19:20
got to look at the situation and say hey look if you've got something that you think can help out this country then raise your hand and volunteer to be a part part of this new Syria this new uh
19:31
land of opportunity because we don't have a a an open window that stays open indefinitely we've got
19:42
to work and we've got to work now and just in in case people are not aware and I want to mention
19:47
this again those Israelis are right next door and they realize that something new and different is
19:54
happening here and they want to make sure that they Scuttle it before it has an opportunity to take off to to take off the ground and so we don't have a lot of time to be able to capture the
20:06
hearts and minds of the people but with the help of Allah inshal things are going to be fine well
Israel
20:13
let me ask you about uh the Israelis now Israel has attacked multiple sites uh military sites
20:21
uh across uh across Syria including Damascus and has all but eliminated the old defense capacity
20:28
capabilities of the Assad regime uh there's been um um shelling of of bureaucratic buildings um and
20:38
it just seems like uh Israel is is countering and trying to counter uh this revolution or at least
20:45
uh trying to incapacitate this uh this state um I suppose my question to you two is twofold uh
20:54
firstly uh is that how you're reading what Israel is trying to do and secondly it it seems to me
21:00
that the new government has been extremely quiet uh and Silent on the activities of Israel over
21:08
the past few days they've not even condemned it uh publicly like what lies behind that uh
21:15
that that that uh that silence uh well the first thing is that yes the Israelis are trying to um
21:22
weaken Rebel forces they're trying their best to make sure that they don't take advantage of
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the uh new Weaponry that's Fallen uh into their hands that was formerly um uh uh the property of
21:36
the essid government um to make sure that they uh stay weak but I don't know if Netanyahu knows
21:43
this or not but you know H nice try the reality of the situation is that what is standard operating
21:50
procedure for Rebel forces is as soon as you take an area and they acquire new Weaponry you take it
22:00
directly from that location for these obvious reasons I mean Rebel forces have got 12 years
22:06
of experience um this is not the same Rebel force that was fighting in 2011 2012 2013 this is 2024
22:15
so yeah you've got some uh pictures that are floating around out on the internet of of of
22:21
a hanger brought down um on a plane that didn't work anyway and uh and some other images but the
22:27
reality of the situation ation is that the weapons that Rebel forces got hold of for the most part
22:33
are intact all right that's interesting so in a sense you're you're suggesting that uh it's not
22:38
that significant um uh of an attack by Israel well I mean when you w 350 sorties and you bomb 350
22:46
locations um it's not nice it's not fun but also to say that they gain some strategic advantage
22:54
in that regard the answer is no as for the quiet um spots of the uh new government I understand um
23:02
what they're trying to do um there's a there's a country uh to unite the institutions to establish
23:10
and getting into a war of words with the Israelis isn't going to bring any benefit uh it's not going
23:17
to do anything um uh do they know that they're there well everybody knows that they're there
23:22
um uh you know um are they taking counter measures yes they are and we'll just have
23:27
to wait and see what that's going to be in the coming days inshallah and and what is the extent to which Israel is now encroaching on uh on Syrian territory because we hear on on the net especially
How far is Israel in Syria
23:38
from uh some on the Anti-Imperialist left that Israel is effectively has effectively invaded uh
23:44
Syria and it's a few miles away from from Damascus and it's its tanks are rolling in uh is that how
23:51
you're seeing uh Israel's in current activities no I think that that's what they ultimately want
23:57
to do if you'll listen to people like smotrich and such like that who were saying step by step we're going to take all of Syria um uh but they're 40 kilometers away from uh uh the the the Syrian
24:10
capital and not an easy 40 kilometers and not sure how many miles that is but um at any rate
24:18
uh it's it's still a ways away they've taken the area of ketra um which is on the border so I'm
24:25
not going to sit here and tell you that we can say okay well you know you know everybody can relax there's still a ways away so don't worry that's not the case that's not the issue that's
24:34
not the um the uh the feeling here on the ground but the idea that their tanks are getting ready
24:41
to roll into Damascus uh and all well I'll be in Damascus tonight you can ask me if they're
24:49
there but they're not so alhamdulillah the um should continue to make Dua and things are going
24:54
to be okay inshallah so so um you know conspiracy theorists out there are suggesting that one of the
25:01
reasons why their silence and Ill preparation in inverted Commerce towards uh the Israeli
25:08
assault is because there is some sort of collusion between the rebellion and outside forces America
25:14
and Israel um I mean how how do you address that so let me make sure I understand that uh so Rebel
25:21
forces took the entire country away from Bashar assid who had never ever attacked Israel not once
25:33
yeah never launched a missile through a rock or a stick or anything and so Rebel forces replaced him
25:42
who was giving him basically everything that they wanted so that they could then hand the country
25:48
over to the Israelis is is is is that what what they're saying yeah I think that's the Russian
25:55
at least at least the argument is that they would question your your your points there about Assad
Assad central to resisting Israel?
26:02
never attacking Israel and they would say Assad was Central to the axis of resistance against who
26:08
against well presumably against Israel how how are you going to be Central when you didn't fight you
26:16
never said you were going to fight the only thing that they did were two things one file a bunch
26:22
of complaints with the uh uh uh uh the United Nations security Council good luck with that and
26:28
um allow the Iranians uh uh in town because they were using them or the Iranians were using essid
26:35
in order to be able to um uh uh uh to keep Rebel forces at Bay uh the um ID would have preferred
26:43
a different uh Ally than Iran who's not liked by anybody but you know Beggars can be choosers
26:51
and that was the reality of the situation so if people are saying that okay well the Israelis are
26:58
um you know in collusion with um Rebel forces look you have to understand something that's
27:04
very important here this revolution is about much more than just Abu Muhammad Jani much more
27:12
than just ha these are integral parts of it but it's not everything so even if by some way that
27:23
outside forces were controlling certain leaders of the revolu ution you haven't control the whole
27:31
thing you know it's kind of like Congress or I should say the president of the United States
27:36
all right let's say that you can control Donald Trump that doesn't necessarily mean that Russia controls uh the Congress doesn't mean that they control the Senate um so the situation here is not
27:49
in any one person's hands It Is spearheaded by Joe Lanny and uh and HTS um right now so
27:58
um you know so this Theory I I don't I don't see it like that can I move on to um where Islam fits
28:05
in to this new government structure now of course um I mean you know I'm here in the west and there
Where Islam fits?
28:11
are lots of Muslims around the world who want uh Islam to have a greater say in government
28:19
for sure but also there are non-muslims here in the west who fear or at least who are who live in
28:24
trepidation because of recent examples of Islamic grp groups taking power and and the potential for
28:30
that to uh to to you know to go to go wrong and to to oppress minority rights um so from your
28:38
reading of uh HTS and their ideology as well as the Syrian people how much Islam uh is going to
28:46
be uh how much is Islam going to be in the the mix here when it comes to when it comes to government
28:52
and economy and politics uh in the years ahead we're going to have to wait and see but I tell you
28:58
one thing um after 14 years of fighting and the predominant force not just Fighters but in other
29:09
groups just spared by HTS are Islamic Fighters and anybody that'll tell you different is lying it's
29:18
the first thing the second thing is is that it's going to be hard work to convince hey guys listen
29:26
to this we fought for 14 years a million people have been killed half the population has been made
29:34
into refugees and all and you wanted to have real Islamic justice but ah not going to happen guys
29:42
we're going to try in a few years ain't nobody buying that nobody's going to listen and receive
29:48
that message well the reality of the situation is that the tly ban took Afghanistan it took
29:53
him 20 years to do it when when people told them from around the world you know You' got to do it
30:00
this way and you got to do it that way they were like man I don't know what you're talking about we took this country we fought for this country we bled for this country and we're going to decide
30:09
the direction that this country is going to go in they were saying that we H we hope that you
30:15
will support us and there will be some decisions that we make that you are not going to like but we
30:20
are an Islamic organization and we want Islam so please be with us but we have sovereignty here and
30:28
that's all that there is to it and I think that the rebel forces and the fighters which are here
30:33
are um a tolerant group and they want to see uh a progression it's not about it's and it's never
30:42
been about going up to some woman and saying um you know hey what kind of scarf is that and bust
30:48
over the head and drag her to prison or something like that or you might see a guy who's smoking a
30:54
cigarette and next thing you know you body slam him and drag him to the nearest police station it's just not that kind of element but the people here they want Islamic Justice they want that and
31:08
the Islamic Justice is not about saying hey let's go and cut off somebody's hand hey get over here it's that's not the way it is Islam itself does not call for a a people of a society that only
31:21
has one hand I mean you know that's part of the propaganda that the West would like to
31:28
uh so in the hearts and minds of the people why because it's a means of control because what they
31:34
do is they say you know uh it's harsh harsh government um harsh stances harsh this harsh
31:42
that be in an effort to turn the hearts and the minds of the umah away from the people who have
31:49
fought for 14 years uh to uh to establish um or to take away control from Bashar to EST
31:58
Justice they want people to not support uh uh uh this revolution they want that why because
32:06
they're afraid imagine if we had an um of one and a half billion people who are only making
32:15
Dua not doing anything else because they may not have the ability to do that but to only make Dua
32:21
and we have an infinitesimal micro fraction of those one and a half billion people who are suppor
32:28
ing people who are trying to establish good and establish a tolerant Islamic Justice who's going
32:35
to be able to hold those people back who's going to be able to keep those people from being a model
32:43
of modernity for the future a model for other countries you think the United Arab Emirates wants
32:51
this uh this revolution to succeed I don't think so I don't think that ABD Fatu wants it to succeed
32:57
I don't think that joker Muhammad bin Sam wants uh this revolution uh to be successful because the
33:03
people are going to be looking at it saying hey look what those guys have done we need to start to figure out how we can get a piece of that so um I I really think that the future uh has the
33:15
potential to be bright but we've got to be smart and not allow the West to determine who is who
33:26
uh uh in terms of of people that they're willing to support there has been and and you've answered
New government and the West
33:32
this uh partially in in a previous answer but there has been an attempt by the new government
33:37
to not come across as threatening to the West um and and some argue that may uh Bode uh that may be
33:47
a a bad sign symbolically for the future because uh you've just said there in your answer that uh
33:53
you don't want the West uh to uh to muscle in on this Revolution and to fought it and to divert it
34:01
and subvert it uh but if there is a a deference to the West uh then very possibly um we could find in
34:09
the next few years this revolution is subverted uh by outside forces I mean how do we how do you
34:16
make sure that ordinary syrians prevent that from happening Islam that gives you the Criterion in
34:25
terms of who's good and who bad who wants to help and who doesn't want to help and they're wearing
34:32
um uh they are wolf in in sheep's clothing that gives the Criterion in terms of whether you should
34:39
be going to the left or if you should be going to the right for example let's say that you have some
34:45
Western forces that come and they say Hey listen guys y'all need money right sure you do and you
34:51
can get some money you can open up a couple hotels you can have some casinos and stuff like that he
34:57
can put the people to work that's the way that they'll sell it to the people now people who have
35:02
no Islamic Foundation no Islamic background and it's all about just secularism even though they
35:09
may have good intentions for their country they might be swayed by a message like that but as soon
35:15
as that leader that secular leader comes back to people who understand the basics of his land hey
35:23
why don't we open up a couple of casinos down in Damascus one in humps and so and so forth what do
35:28
you guys think they'd be looking at him as if he'd lost his mind we don't need the need to discuss
35:33
that we'll stay bulk until we can try to figure out a better solution because we're not going in the Haram Direction you see that's the means of control that the West will try to uh will try to
35:44
implement it they tried it with the tan didn't work inshallah tal their efforts here will be
35:52
uh equally a failure you reported from Seda and the horrific scenes that came out of his prison
Syrian Prisons
35:58
and other prisons across uh across Syria has has really um captured and and uh repulsed all of us
36:07
um can you tell us a little bit about what you saw in witness when you uh uh attended V his prison
36:14
sites uh but also I suppose one of the worries we have and and again you did answer this partially
36:20
previously but one of the worries we have is that these prisons will be reopened and will house
36:26
future prisoners uh who are uh who are uh let's say uncomplimentary to to the government to the
36:33
state uh has there been a move to uh to to prevent these prisons from reopening and for uh for for
36:43
you know has the government discussed the need to uh to establish some form of of coordinated
36:51
Justice moving forward for for Syrian people it's way too early to tell what the um the the new
36:57
government will do with these old torture chambers and all so let me answer that part first it's it's
37:04
just way too early to tell um so I I can't answer that question um but I visited Abu Salim prison I
37:12
visited that's in Libya that was under the um the rule of uh Mami and also here s prison it's a pit
37:24
really it's a human slaughter house there's no regard for human life dignity Humanity now I want
37:36
to talk about this word Humanity for a minute so we can understand because people hear this
37:41
word Humanity human what does that really mean on the ground that means when you see somebody
37:49
and they're starving and their body is emaciated and they're asking please give me something to
37:56
eat and you look at them as if you're looking at a cardboard box you feel nothing there's no Humanity
38:03
in your heart your heart your blood doesn't flow that's what a lack of humanity means that's what
38:10
was happening at these prisons when you have somebody and I've said this before in interviews
38:15
and I want to issue a challenge to the people they used to do something called she where they would
38:22
tie the hands of the person and suspend them from the air a lot of people would sit there and say
38:28
ah I doesn't sound too bad so I would say to you go and get a rope tie it around your hands and
38:36
just throw it over the door suspend yourself for 60 seconds if you make it that far and see what
38:43
it's like not having humanity is seeing somebody begging and pleading let me down brother fellow
38:55
Muslim don't do it like this this this is wrong Allah is going to punish you for this and that
39:00
person when he's listening to you tell them to fear Allah it's as if you're singing the most
39:09
recent Beat song or some Jay-Z song or one of the old Puff Daddy songs he doesn't hear what
39:16
you're saying when you're talking about Allah he doesn't get it that's the elements that you
39:21
have in in in essence torture chambers and satah prison and branch 27 and Ted War prison and these
39:30
other prisons and brother man inshal we will make sure that there is no return back to those days
SDF
39:39
inshallah um can I ask you about the situation in the northeast of the country with the uh with the
39:47
SDF the Kurdish forces or the nominally Kurdish forces um at the moment um there is an offensive
39:55
against them uh by the s da the Turkish bat uh Rebel groups and uh I know that there's been some
40:03
com some conversation about a a ceasefire recently or at least a A lullin in the in in that offensive
40:12
um how do you understand the role of the SDF do you see them as counterrevolutionary forces backed
40:19
by the West uh or is that an exaggeration and and should they be incorporated into to a future um
40:29
civilian government of of of Syria of a United Syria once again I'm I'm going to say this again
40:36
and maybe some of the viewers might not like it I I I don't think that incorporating this or that
40:47
um uh ethnicity if we would maybe use that I don't know if that's the right word for it um or people
40:56
from this background or that back background I don't think that that's that important and I don't think that the new government should focus on that I think that they should keep their ears
41:06
open to all of the parties and not be dragged into this thing where we have to have five of
41:12
this and four of that and three of that now to go back to your question do I think that they should
41:17
be included they're a part of Syrian Society I'm not talking about the SDF ypg and pkk um
41:25
these militia forces in my estimation have to be uh dismantled done away with there was no Aleppo
41:33
siege that killed thousands of people without the participation of those militia forces those are
41:40
the same militia forces that are keeping many uh um uh women in children that were arrested
41:49
uh during the uh of the uh attacks on Isis now I am the number one person who's against
41:58
um Isis but I also understand something else there are plenty of mobsters that are out there that had
42:04
wives who never participated in their crimes so why would we who would think that if somebody
42:11
was a mobster he was a a a murderer and a drug dealer and so on and so forth and then somebody
42:18
would say okay why don't we go lock up his wife and his kids but would think that that's a good idea I would say that those women and children that don't have any blood on their hands that
42:28
didn't participate in isis's murderous activities what you holding them for and that's what those
42:34
uh Kurdish militia forces are doing so no I don't think that those militia forces should have a role
42:41
in in in this new Syria but they're part of Syrian society and if they want to be civilians and they
42:48
don't have the blood of Muslims on their hands then they should be allowed to do that that's what I think that doesn't mean that that's what's going to be but I think that you know there's got
42:58
to be patience and tolerance and inclusivity um you know back into society for uh um all
43:04
these different elements um but we can't forget and pretend that we don't remember the role that
43:12
those uh Kurdish militia forces uh um played in this last 14 years there are a lot of people who
43:20
are dead because of them and we shouldn't forget that we might be willing to move on from that from
43:28
some people but to now say okay well let's include them in on on some type of government n brother I
Iran and Hezbollah
43:35
ain't with it jolani uh in his speech in in the the central mosque uh he commented on um Iran
43:44
and Hezbollah in particular and their activities in Syria and the need to make sure that uh those
43:51
forces do not return um why did it because because of course uh many Iranians have have pointed fed
43:57
out as being um you know or have um criticized uh his his criticism of of these forces uh why
44:06
do you think he uh particularly uh um highlighted the activities of Hezbollah and Iran and and how
44:14
did you see uh these actors in the uh Syrian Civil War well first of all um Iran has been nothing but
44:21
a troublemaker to the entire region yeah that's just the reality of this situation you know they
44:29
supported a dictator that slaughtered a million people and they were right there arming him and
44:36
supporting him and so was hisbah we could get into a lot of fancy terminology and you know talk about
44:43
international law and um you know and uh uh all kinds of stuff but when you're supporting
44:52
somebody that did the things that Bashar Al Assad was doing what you going to tell me me you didn't know wasn't clear uh if it's been 14 years was he torturing people and say now I didn't know
45:04
that how come somebody didn't come and tell me is that what we're going to do I mean this is asinine this is foolish this this doesn't make an ounce of sense the best thing to happen is for somebody
45:16
to tell Iran pack your stuff go back to where you were or we fight and you don't have a leg to stand
45:26
on them same thing with hisbah tell him guys look maybe at some future point we might be able to
45:35
cooperate in something but not today your role in this thing has been just too awful and we had no
45:43
role for you get your stuff and go back to Lebanon because you got serious problems over there you
45:48
think that the Israelis are going to pull out after 60 days whose idea was it to give them 60 days to pull out of Southern Lebanon that's like the stupidest thing could imagine Israelis
45:58
are not going to pull out of there they're going to make some false swag operation oh my God oh my God they they launched a missile at a school that they launched themselves so we need to stay
46:08
there to protect our security that's what they're going to do who I don't know who negotiated that
46:15
that deal with whoever it is he should be sh well I shouldn't say he should be shot maybe he should be severely injured the point of the matter is is that hisbah you got your own problems go back
Iran’s role in Syria
46:25
to Lebanon uh so so B let me pick up on on that point on Iran because of course uh there are lots
46:31
of Muslims uh Sunni Muslims Shia Muslims there are lots of Muslims who believe that Iran Iran's
46:39
negative role in the conflict has been exaggerated and actually its primary objective was to
46:44
neutralize Isis and alqaeda and that's certainly how the Iranian government has propagandized its
46:51
activities its role in in Syria can you can you tell me about like your experience of of uh the
46:58
Iranian militias and and what they ended up doing uh in in uh the Syrian Civil War okay uh the first
47:05
thing is if anybody is saying that Iran uh now they're saying no Iran just came there to fight
47:14
Isis no what are you talking about Iranians are cool okay let's talk reality you know I don't know
47:23
I guess once the weed uh uh a wears off if anybody who would say that and then we talk business issue
47:31
number one Essa never would have been able to survive this long if it wasn't for Iran and the
47:37
Iranian and the Shiite uh proxies were paid by who Bashar Assad didn't have any money to pay him guys
47:46
who was it from it was from Iran two where did the Iranians fight Isis that's my question to
47:54
you what city what town what village they didn't fight Isis they never did that's the reality and
48:03
if anybody tries to come up and say oh yes they did tell me where they didn't that's the second
48:10
thing the third thing is that a hisban hisbah has no money where do they get their weapons from they
48:19
get it from Iran and therefore they were sent here at the behest of who Iran and Bashar assid was
48:28
able to survive this long because the hisbah group um sent droves of troops here to prop up Bashar
48:38
assid and I want to go back to this one more time guys if somebody said that there was um okay the
48:46
genocide that took place in Rwanda where a million people were killed in 100 days anybody who aided
48:53
and abetted that genocide deserves to be in the hag or shot or imprison for the rest of their life
49:04
depending on what type of Justice you want to see for anybody to come now and say and try to Rebrand
49:12
Iran to say that they were just fighting Isis I tell them come on Brother come on come on man
49:17
what you talking about yeah thank you for that I think that's um certainly uh I think that message
Anti-Imperialist left
49:23
hasn't resonated among some quarters I mean what what do you say say to the Anti-Imperialist left
49:29
or at least some elements of the Anti-Imperialist left who who continue to argue that this Rebellion
49:34
is is negative for uh for Syrian people and for the Palestinian cause in particular and
49:42
um uh by uh by uh by this Rebellion removing Assad uh Palestine is now lost and Gaza is in a
49:54
far more weaker position you've addressed the USD component of that previously but I suppose the the
50:00
the discussion from the anti Anti-Imperialist is that uh we now have a a region that um is weaker
50:10
as a result of of the the Rebellion well the first thing I would say is this if you look at
50:18
um the situation now let's say just for argument sake that instead of taking this country in 2024
50:26
been done in 2016 or 2017 or 2018 maybe Rebel forces would have been in a position to actually
50:35
help the people of Palestine six years or seven years later so for people who would say okay well
50:43
it's weaker now okay are we going to live in the here and now you think it's gonna it was stronger with Bashar Al assid he wasn't helping the Palestinians he was helping the Palestinians
50:52
do what that's my question to you what was he helping the Palestinians do get up in front of
50:57
the of the camera and say we condemn The Killing in Palestine everybody condemns the killing of
51:04
Palestine my grandmother would condemn the the killings in Palestine but my grandmother doesn't
51:09
have troops my grandmother doesn't have uh uh missiles my grandmother doesn't have anti-aircraft
51:15
uh uh uh batteries my grandmother doesn't have planes you do how come you didn't do something
51:22
well he didn't do anything so if people are talking about well you know we could kind of
51:27
you know you know the resistance is is weaker now they weren't doing anything anyway and if
51:33
you always want to just look at the here and now okay well you've got a guy who's not making enough money to be able to to uh uh to feed his family he's not making enough money to feed his family
51:46
and he's got to quit that job and go get a better job now somebody could say wait a minute if you quit that job and and everything your family is going to be in a weaker position okay I get it
51:55
but I can't even go look for a job as long as I have this job and I can't feed my family anyway
52:00
so even if we as a family have to cut back just a little bit for a bit of time it's better and it is
52:10
obligatory for the success of our future that we go through some difficult days today so that we'll
52:17
have better days tomorrow Bel I think we've had a really interesting conversation today um just tell
Syrian Mindset
52:23
me about the the Syrian mindset the Syrian people that you you uh encounter on a daily basis um how
52:30
are they feeling how uh do you do you feel that uh there's a lot to be optimistic about when it comes
52:37
to uh the future of Syria uh and do they feel that sense of optimism that you've shown uh in your
52:43
answers today if you just have to look at some of the Town squares the people are ecstatic but
52:54
they're worried they're worried this might be an ESS a trick they've been ruled by an iron hand for
53:01
years that's all they knew and all of a sudden now the dictator is gone is he really gone is he just
53:09
waiting to see who's happy with him not being gone and then his feared uh security service is going
53:15
to do a Crackdown so it's like yeah they they're celebrating but it's like okay well let let's wait
53:21
and see what's going to happen so I think that the people are seeing that there's some possibilities
53:29
for the future I'm telling you in the north we have better cars than they have in Damascus if
53:36
you can believe that I have an iPhone and when I was going down into uh other territories and I was
53:44
and and I would going to the shops to mobile shops to get credit and stuff like that and everything and you look at other people's phones they got some old Samsung a busted up Nokia and everything
53:53
that's what the people have they don't even have Wi-Fi brother they have the mobile phones that has
54:00
some bogus uh internet connection you know because I told you that when I go back down there we can't
54:06
do this interview Because the Internet isn't good enough for it so um their standard of living is
54:12
is very very poor Yi very very bad so there's a lot to be optimistic about and um me myself I'm
54:22
not Syrian born but I never felt more Syrian today than ever before I I give it to you like that so
54:30
let's see what's going to happen for the future for all the people who are uh optimistic I will
54:35
say alhamdulillah for the people who are skeptical I say that's cool we still brothers and sisters
54:41
let us maybe take a few steps forward and maybe you'll join in so that's my position that's what
54:47
I feel is happening here on the ground thank you so much for your participation today and uh thank
54:54
you for all the work that you do there thanks for having me and Salam to all the brothers and sisters please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
55:06
over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter
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