Ep 186. - Assad Was a Tyrant, Not An Anti-Imperialist with Moazzam Begg
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This episode was filmed on Saturday, before Damascus fell. The Syrian revolution began in 2011 as a grassroots, civil society uprising against one of the most tyrannical rulers in the Muslim World. Bashar al-Assad like his father before him, presided over a state of terror, with disappearances, secret police repression and a punitive state machinery that governed through fear. Assad styled himself as an anti-imperialist when in reality he had colluded with the West in past conflicts and after 9/11 Syria became a favourite place for the Americans to render suspects for horrific torture. Today we have Moazzam Begg who is the senior director of CAGE and author of enemy combatant – a book about his time as a detainee first in Bagram and then in Guantanamo. He also spent time in Syria during the revolution, as part of his investigation into the Assad regimes complicity in the CIA torture programme.
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Transcript: This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
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if we want them tortured we send them to Syria people were being executed at the
0:05
rate of 40 to 50 a day we are able to go back home and we're all going home they see Russia
0:12
as a Bull workk against America's hegemony what differentiates this current opposition and Isis is
0:19
agreed the Syrian Revolution began in 2011 as a Grassroots Civil Society Uprising against
0:29
one of the most tyrannic rulers in the Muslim World Bashar alassad like his father before
0:34
him presided over a state of Terror with disappearances secret police repression and
0:41
a punitive State Machinery that governed through fear Asser styled himself as an Anti-Imperialist
0:48
when in reality he had colluded with the West in past conflicts and after 911 Syria became
0:55
a favored place for the Americans to render suspects for horrific torture but because of
1:02
the nature of social media a narrative has taken hold that disparages the Syrian opposition today
1:09
we want to address some of these accusations now today we have moazam be who is the senior director
1:16
of cage the author of the book Enemy combatant a book about his time as a detainee first in
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bagran and then in ganal Bas Detention Facility he also spent time in Syria during the revolution
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as part of his investigation into the Assad regime's complicity in the CIA torture program
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Mar and welcome back to Muslim and thank you for having me again well look we've got a number of um
Assad anti-imperialist?
1:47
I suppose accusations or criticisms that are made of the Syrian opposition and uh I think it's fair
1:55
to say that some of these uh narratives have now sort of Taken hold in some on the internet and
2:00
Beyond and uh I just want to really tap into your vast experience of conflicts but also of Syria uh
2:08
to to get allow us to appreciate uh where we are in terms of the the current Syrian opposition now
2:14
you know of course alhamdulillah uh and it is a good it's a very positive thing you know we now have the opposition sweeping across the country and at the time of filming Assad still barely
2:26
remains in power we don't know where he'll be when uh when this actually goes live uh but
2:32
I suppose the first question to ask is really about Assad himself uh Assad Styles himself as
2:37
an Anti-Imperialist someone who's worked against the United States and against her interests for
2:44
his entire uh governmental career uh is that how you see ass said um let me just quote a former CIA
2:53
operative who talks about the relationship between the CIA and the various um Arab regimes with what
3:01
they worked and so he says Robert bear that if we wanted me the CIA wanted an interrogation a
3:10
robust interrogation we send them to Jordan and if we want them tortured we send them to Syria and
3:18
if we want them disappeared completely you will never see them again we send them to Egypt now
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part of my role since my return from Guantanamo has been not just to look at Guantanamo but at
3:30
the Renditions program and the Outsourcing of the torture program so we know that individuals
3:35
were sent to Egypt to Libya to Morocco and other places because they would do in their countries
3:41
things that even the Americans wouldn't do so we call this the Outsourcing of the torture program
3:47
but one place that uh people were sent to for the torture and the most frightening of those
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places was Syria and I know this personally because in ban the United States um CIA agent
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used to threaten me mam or 558 which is my number if you don't cooperate we will send you to either
4:07
Syria or Egypt meaning that you're either going to get tortured or you're going to get disappeared so being this great Anti-Imperialist bull walk I mean let's check it let's put that
4:17
to the test so if you look at the cases of Mah abdah uhmed and these are all uh Syrian
4:30
Canadians who at one time or another during from 2002 and onwards were sent with complicity of
4:37
the United States of America and the Canadian government to Syria and marah arar for example
4:43
talks about how he was sent to a place called far Philistine which is Paris Palestine branch which is known to be an intelligence uh headquarters torture center for the Syrian M and there he was
4:55
put in a coffin-like cell and remained for around 10 months before he was eventually sent back the
5:01
Canadian government in his case in the case of all the others I've mentioned uh eventually
5:06
after years of litigation apologized and paid the millions of dollars in compensation because they
5:13
understood the level at which uh these people had been uh tortured at cage we still are looking for
5:20
individuals who've been and so you understand how this has happened the war on terror happens the United States invades Afghanistan it has people like me through the Pakistani government capturing
5:32
us from our homes to Guantanamo there are people like aburi like Mustafa set Mariam Nas and others
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who are grabbed by the CIA and handed over where to Guantanamo no to the Assad regime where they
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remain in prison for years on and in fact to one of the reasons why I as you said I went to Syria
5:56
During the Revolution was to meet with individuals who' been part of uh that rendition program right
6:04
and I did meet some including Abu Khaled who of course became a leader of one of the other groups sham but the point was that the this network of the rendition program I met one Libyan guy who had
6:17
been sent uh to from Syria to Libya to be tortured because the information uh was given by British
6:27
intelligence MI5 intercepted a a conversation that he had with somebody in Britain um and
6:33
they gave that information to the Assad regime so there was the British were working alongside at least in some ma matters with the assid regime and there's several others we've come across the
6:44
case of Muhammad Zar who was renditioned from Germany to um uh Syria and tortured there so
6:50
there are several uh uh Nationals of the West who are originally syrians but nonetheless Western
6:57
Nationals that have been working a alongside have they been tortured because their governments have
7:02
been working alongside uh Syria in the war on terror so let me get this straight um it's not
Syria’s torture campaign
7:09
just that they''re been sent to Syria uh but there is active collusion there was active collusion between the Syrian security forces and the security forces in say America or Britain
7:21
where information was been relayed as a result of his torture campaign so we understand this it's intelligence cooperation because after the war on terror yeah and it's really it's important
7:31
we understand this why are why is the so-called part of what's apparently part of the axis of
7:37
Evil a a state sponsor of terrorism yeah at least according to the United States of America meaning
7:42
Syria how come they're working with intelligence Services of the West which is undeniable yeah and
7:49
the answer is of course we may dislike you but these people we disl even more and that means
7:56
essentially any quote unquote islamists or people who want Islamic uh uh solutions for the future
8:01
of their countries right we have seen over the last few days uh amazing spectacular scenes of
8:08
uh prisoners being released some prisoners been in in Hammer For example have been in prison for 40
8:14
years since the you know the uprising um uh in the 1980s um uh what do you think they these people
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have gone through well you know here's an example there's there's a a lady her name is Hiba the yeah
8:29
and she wrote a book called just five minutes and she was in 1982 18 years old when the mhat
8:39
came to knock on her door they had already taken her father and her brothers and eventually though
8:44
they were killed she and then her mother was taken were were taken into custody and that
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those five minutes turned into 9 years and there are n years of it's It's A Hard book she's written
8:57
called um just 5 minutes and when you read it you you come across all of the cases how she
9:05
describes uh the torture the sexual violence the rape uh the beatings and the murder and not just
9:12
the people from the Muslim brotherhoods of which She's accused of being connected to but people from other different groups including dissident alawites including uh leftists and so forth so
9:22
everybody's non Baptists who are not part of the the regime's own version of Arab Arab nationalism
9:28
are being killed and tortured for decades I want to tell you a little story of a man I met his name is Abu Ahmed and I met him in idlib when I was living there he lost one eye because it had been
9:38
poped out by the um Assad H Assad's soldiers when they took him into custody he's a father of Bashar
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alad yes that's is a father yes so Abu Ahmed um was a teacher of the Quran and like many others
9:54
thousands of people were captured and taken into prison and this prison was called tadmore which is on the border with Iraq and tadmore is as being recently even recently described as as a terrible
10:04
torture Center and in tadmore people were being executed he told me him there at the rate of 40 to
10:11
50 a day they were put in large numbers of people in small prison cells each person was allocated
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a number and the guards didn't know who which number belonged to which name when his number
10:23
was called he told me this himself and it was just it sends shocks shock waves down your your spine
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and he said that when my number came was called I was either lying down or asleep and one of my
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students who I didn't know he went in my place and he was executed and that's how I'm still alive
10:43
and so you imagine him that's his experience 20 the the the most conservative estimat say 25,000
10:51
people were killed and at most 40,000 people were killed if you ask people today if you do you know
10:56
about the hamama massacre most people have never heard of it yet it happened in 1982 and the backdrop of that is so important because H has now just Fallen to the rebels and this lady hi the
11:09
bell I talked to you about um her my wife recently got a message from her who knows her and she said
11:16
I'm now after 40 years planning to go back to my home yeah uh Mar off camera we had a conversation
11:23
about just a feeling of Jubilation that exists within the Syrian communities around world and
11:30
you know you you've uh through your role in in cage and and also family connections you've got
11:35
uh lots of connections with syrians I mean tell me a little bit about the feeling you're getting from
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syrians who've been dispersed around the world indeed I have simmer syrians in my family one
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of my children my my son is married to a Syrian um and I've lived there and I'm still maintain those
11:52
connections you know I spoke to a brother who was working for Med Sanson Frontier yeah um and I I
11:59
live lived with him very closely and I called him and said how are things there how you how are you
12:04
feeling that this has happened are you safe and so forth he said he was so happy ecstatic he said for
12:10
the first time us as internally displaced refugees or persons we are able to go back home and we're
12:18
all going home now this idea of uh you're all okay in Syria and if if you had to leave your home for
12:26
eight years or 10 years or 50 years um it's it's a price worth paying is it's completely taking away
12:34
from the Syrian experience uh because it doesn't play into the narrative that some people want to
12:40
push well when can I talk about that narrative because I was going to ask you about this later but I think he's probably apt to to do that now there is a impression we get from some sources
The Left on Syria
12:51
on the internet that um in particular from the left and some parts of the left that's
12:57
that argue that uh is the wrong time and Assad is you know is positive figure and uh this is uh all
13:05
part of a of of a major plan um and and somehow that syrians should bear that pain if they even
13:13
believe there is pain but should bear that pain for the sake of some greater good I mean how would you address this in particular I want you to talk about uh because you have through cage you've had
13:22
lots of conversations with uh you know naturally because of the work you do you had conversations
13:28
with people from the left um you know a lot of them have just been horrendous on on this issue
13:34
so let's just look at this now for context right it's really important we as Muslims as people who
13:42
believe in Justice who believe in holding power to uh justice uh the powerful to Justice um we
13:50
look at the suffering of the Palestinians and we rightly act in whatever way we we can and do whatever we can and hold our voices even if it comes at some risk to ourselves yes but we did
14:00
that for Syria right through the the revolution yeah um many people may know that I was the the
14:08
British government attempted to lock me away for 15 years because I was um in Syria investigating
14:15
the role of the CIA and MI5 and so forth and uh attempting at least to send a generator to one of
14:22
the brothers who needed the electricity and they tried to deem that as terrorism and this is the
14:28
most important part because from 2014 at least if it wasn't even before that um it was the Muslim
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Community all of us for supporting Syria being criminalized yeah and that became the major player
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of the Islam phobic and structural uh racism That Came Upon Us from the state in the form of
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that islamophobia meaning we're passing law after law including prevent which came off the back of
14:59
um the Syrian conflict yes and there were hundreds of Muslims that went from here to help I know
15:05
several doctors I know two who were killed trying to help uh in the refugee camps yes of course some
15:10
people joined Isis and so forth and with that stick we were all beaten um but in relation to
15:17
the left and their vision of us one thing that has been forgotten totally if 43,000 Palestinians have
15:26
been killed right now then that is something we cannot stand for but then what will you say when
15:33
610,000 syrians have been killed yeah why is that number simply uh just a statistic that you're not
15:43
even prepared to look at it means that you have dehumanized the syrians to the level of which you
15:50
would not do that to anybody else and the syrians most most of the sying you'll find from uh the
15:57
opposition they all support Palestine they all support Raza they all support the resistance there
16:03
you won't find anybody coming along except unless they're Twisted that they will come along and say that um we uh we don't care what's happening to the Palestinians I simply have not come across
16:13
that from any of the uh the rebels yeah um so can I ask you why why are they so blinkered in a way
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you know they support Palestine and you know the impression we've re we've got over the last 13 14
Why dismiss Syrians?
16:27
months is is one of just positive allyship these people are supporting a just cause but on Syria
16:36
they're willing to forsake humanity and Justice like what's going on their conceptually in their
16:42
universe that allows them to dismiss uh syrians and their struggle uh and yet Embrace another
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struggle for justice you know obviously there's this presentation that um Syria somehow is this
16:57
great bull workk of Defense of anti-imperialism and standing against oppression and so forth but
17:04
you know a simple question during the entirety Peri entire period of the war on terror years how
17:09
many pro asset supporters were getting arrested by the British Security Services how many of them getting detained at airports how many of them were getting questioned under schedule 7
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how many of them were having their bank accounts closed uh it was happening to all of us including me all of other so you can see on the one hand that um you're free as a as an Anti-Imperialist
17:29
to do whatever you want you can talk all about your anti-imperialism without being targeted and
17:35
why is that why is the state not coming after you why are they coming after me why are they coming
17:40
after the Muslims and so you have to ask yourself in the same way as said why is this the West
17:49
the West isn't going after assid even when they bombed assid they there was one occasion when the
17:55
Americans bombed Assad and I think three or four people were killed k out of the 50 cruise missile
18:01
strikes I was in Afghanistan when Americans fired cruise missiles they killed thousands of people so that was a coordinated strike with the Russians and if you look at it when they were
18:11
bombing in uh Syria it was I think since World War II it's the first time that the Russians
18:17
the F French the British and others coordinated their strikes they would argue to say that this
18:23
is just Isis but it wasn't they were targeting the other rebel groups because the thing that
18:29
was in common that the West Assad Russia uh were saying that these are all Al-Qaeda these are all
18:38
terrorists and using the language of terrorism we it's our experiences once you've done that you've delegitimized and dehumanized those Muslims and um it's unfortunate that Iran would step into
18:50
that because they get called terrorists all the time and they should actually become a little more politically wise that you start calling people terrorists uh you're already called terrorists so
19:01
stop with that language and try to find another way rather than targeting uh people there so
Russia
19:06
V let me ask you then about Russia because um many of the anti-imperialists left uh they see
19:15
American imperialism as bad but they see Russian's imperialism and they wouldn't call it imperialism
19:20
as something that's benign or positive in the world um and um they see Russia as a Bull workk
19:28
against uh America's um America's hemony and so in a way it's positive and it needs to be supported
19:35
and actually China as well we can come to that actually because you know uh their position on the Wagers you know ACC it to the weager hoax and you you hear that all the time from some of these
19:45
guys on on the net I suppose my question then is about Russia like how should we because you find
19:52
a lot of Muslims support Russia and um whenever you speak ill of Russia I noticed that recently
20:00
over Syria where I started to question uh quite publicly Russia's actions in Syria and how it
20:06
fored the Revolution and uh there was a lot of push back from Muslims who otherwise are very
20:13
sincere who who suggest that um you know Russia is somehow a a cause that should be celebrated in the
20:21
world like how do you view Russia I think let's just do this right let's play a little experiment
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we'll take an image of a child underneath Rubble yeah we'll see manage manag to see part of his
20:35
hand sticking out and his mother screaming and his father desperately trying to pick up the concrete block that's fallen on his head he pulls him out but only half his body comes out
20:47
yeah now let's say this isn't palestin it's Syria because that's what was going on for the past from
20:57
2 the 15 until recently with the Russians bombing right through alapo and Beyond against and nobody
21:07
cared and that was happening and I'm telling you even now the Russians have bombed and they've
21:14
wiped out one several entire families and if you were just to to the uninitiated those who don't
21:21
know and say um if you if you say this it was a Palestinian family you'd find a huge amount
21:28
to support from the very people who if this was a Syrian family would go into denial and
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that's essentially what's been going on here the dehumanization there's an active
21:40
dehumanization and if your heart uh breaks for seeing what happens to the Palestinians your
21:48
heart should equally break for what you see happening there unless you have an entirely different agenda and if that is the case then even your uh support for the Palestinians is
22:00
questionable because what if tomorrow let's just say and this is a fact what if tomorrow
22:06
after all the resistance in Gaza is very Islamic if tomorrow they turn around and
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say that we are in Islamic resistance as some of their the leaders already said like Dalal
22:17
NAS from uh the Islamic resistance he said that the Syrian resistance is equal to the um
22:25
Palestinian that a Syrian child and a Lebanese child and a Palestinian child are all equal in
22:31
their worth in the sight of this um and they have quoted the Quran and the Sunnah and said
22:37
that the only way that we Revive Our Dean is through this are they really as the left or
22:43
whoever they are uh really going to embrace this the answer is no yeah um can I uh move
The opposition
22:51
on to the opposition because um the narrative in I think similar circles is that the opposition
22:59
is are all Isis and alqaeda now you've worked with the opposition in collecting in information
23:06
and research for for cage um so you've got some understanding of the opposition like explain who
23:13
they are and in particular HTS and uh and their affiliations and where they stand on this sort of
23:20
spectrum of of um uh of of understanding yeah so in the Syrian Revolution uh there been a multitude
23:29
of different groups and you know it's fair to say that it started with officers from the military
23:34
who set up the free Syrian Army because of the targeting because of the sectarian nature that was
23:41
imposed upon uh them and when they responded to Peaceful protests during the Arab Spring there was
23:47
a brutal a deeply brutal Massacre that took place of protesters I've met so many of them who were
23:55
shot paralyzed I used to speak to one man who was actually paralyzed as a result of what happened to him being shot by um uh Syrian soldiers women taken into custody rape the famous Infamous case
24:08
of Hamza the young boy who was tortured to death who was just 13 years old so there's so much of
24:13
this going on the opposition essentially this was the the the frean Army then you had a group
24:20
like which was led by Hass Aboud who these are all people who were former prisoners but had a
24:28
vision for Islam and if you especially look atam they what's happening now with HTS is
24:36
exactly what they wanted back that time but H but ja or the NRA front saw them as a little bit too
24:43
moderate now the nusra front which is essentially this has gone through several Transformations it
24:49
was alqa in Syria that's essentially what it was right yeah and it it originated from Iraq and its
24:56
connection to the original anti Isis uh anti us Isis or or Islamic State in Iraq rather in Iraq
25:05
yeah so that went through a transformation they separated and jolani set up his own group and
25:11
then it eventually they started to change and they Amalgamated with other groups including and set up
25:19
uh uh HDs no before that it was uh um I forget the name now but nonetheless they they formed
25:31
together a group with the aim of being united and then there was the last transformation which was
25:39
HTS sorry so the group was called so that transformed and it started to change its views
25:51
uh there was a purge they arrested several people uh including people we know including uh all sorts
25:58
from across the board not just those who was quote unquote Pro alqaeda um and there was uh
26:05
arrests there was people mistreated and so forth that did happen we know that for sure but there
26:10
definitely has been a transformation an attempt to Plate allay the fears of minorities of uh the west
26:20
and Beyond to say that we are not here to Target anyone outside our borders and essentially this
26:26
is a struggle for the Syrian people and Islamic struggle but for the Syrian people inside and
26:32
that's the language that jolani has been passing through and that is from my understanding what has
26:38
been happening on the streets people are sick to death yeah of living under a torturous ring
26:45
where you can't raise your head where every second person around you could uh uh could be spying upon
26:51
you and that's the old uh you know um style of the asset regime and it's past Itself by date it
26:58
it by necessity now uh I don't think it anybody on the streets wants the old anymore whether they are
27:06
pro HTS or Pro free Syrian Army or the Syrian National Army uh which is the other part of
27:13
this uh Rebel group yes the Syrian National Army which is kind of more Pro Turkish or controlled
27:19
or areas that are controlled by the Turks they're also pushing forward um and eventually uh I think
27:26
the the the speed with this which this is happening um it's just a question of time
27:32
before assid Falls inshah and I've just get it got a a quick notification here about the
ISIS vs Opposition
27:38
Rebellion is now 5 kilometers away from Damascus alhamdulillah it's it's proceeding very fast so I
27:44
just want to pick up on that point you mentioned there about Isis um because we still get this
27:51
that the Syrian opposition are all Isis uh like what differentiates this current opposition and
27:58
Isis as a group can can you spell that out for us please yeah I mean one of the things that I think anybody who makes the Isis accusation against the the rebels or the opposition is that do you know
28:09
the relationship between Isis and the opposition yeah do you know that just as we're hearing now
28:15
that the the the rebels are approaching Damascus that they were approaching Damascus in 2014 and
28:24
that in fact areas near Damascus like Yuka and so forth had been obliterated uh where this which was
28:31
full of Palestinians uh by the assid regime so those who think that they um the Assad regime is
28:37
defending Palestine is not at all and so it was the rise of Isis in the midst of the Revolution
28:47
and the rebels that literally uh stabbed them in the back right despite the various it's true that
28:55
there were many different groups but they had come to a point at which in a unified way they
29:01
were they were encroaching upon the regions that were Damascus was in their sights yeah
29:07
and then Isis came and declared its so-called caliphate if you're not with us you're against
29:14
us and I know many I know people personally who were captured by them and executed beheaded
29:21
there was a man that I weed to live with their family um my wife was working in the hospital
29:28
and looked after by his wife I used to look after his kids when he would be gone uh and
29:36
his name was abuan and Isis took him into custody he was a very active person people knew him and
29:44
they asked him to give Bea or allegiance to him to them he refused after 6 months of imprisonment
29:51
they beheaded him and still we were trying to assist his kids Fatima and z and and so forth
29:58
and uh that's just one example of hundreds of people from the opposition that they were
30:04
beheading they actually killed one of the rendition victims that I went to go and meet um who' been handed over by the CIA to the Assad regime and imprisoned so uh people
30:15
need to understand the relationship between Isis and the different groups uh the Islamic groups
30:21
in particular the the re Rebel groups so they killed more of those people ever than they did
30:27
anyone else yeah um so the allegation that they are all Isis is nonsensical it makes no sense
30:35
even if let's just say jolani came out of uh the original Iraqi uh Islamic State they separated and
30:44
then they changed and rebranded and disconnected from Al-Qaeda Central so they're neither Isis
30:51
nor alqa that's just a fact it's a stated fact even if you dislike them um so to say to delit
30:58
I the opposition all of them which includes uh free Syrian Army who who are far more secular in
31:04
the in their Outlook and to to with one soup of the brush to say that they're all Isis or
31:11
stroke Al-Qaeda you're saying that because you know it's not true and you know it's not true
31:17
because you want to be able to say that they have no legitimacy there and that they should all be
31:23
full because Assad is the better option and that's simply not true because is why are Ordinary People
31:29
in the streets celebrating are we suggesting that Ordinary People on the streets celebrating in this way they're also Isis too and this is exactly what Israel does in Gaza it's exactly
31:41
the same thing when the politicians say again and again it's all of them they are all responsible
31:47
they've all got tunnels under their homes they all facilitate uh Hamas they all uh they voted
31:53
for them so that's exactly the same thing that um those who are saying the the rebels are Isis
Post-Assad Syria
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uh it's what Israel does and you've used the word Islamic groups and an Islamic future and Islamic
32:07
policies and um quite a lot there and a lot of my uh viewership are non-muslims and they will
32:15
see that and they will get the impression that this is a an exclusionary State a state that is
32:21
exclusive to to Muslims only and so the question then comes um Syria is a diverse Society you've
32:28
got Jews and Christians you've got alawites um is there a danger that a post Assad inshah post Assad
32:38
uh Syria is going to be one that will threaten uh minorities whether Muslim minorities or or
32:45
else or other minorities well let's just look at what's happened over the since the assid regime
32:51
yeah so you've got a minority of alawites uh who are in power yeah and they have imposed through
32:58
and steal uh massacres like the ham Massacre and many others as I said talks about how Christians
33:05
and Drews and alawites were taken into custody and tortured beyond recognition so we know you
33:11
already have a torturous regime there so the question is are they going to be worse than Assad are they going to be worse than those who butchered over 600,000 people that's the real
33:22
question yeah um and from what we've heard from jolani and his acolytes is that they spoken to and
33:31
tried toay the fears I'm know it's possible it's possible that people start to get um mistreated
33:38
that that's not beyond the realm of possibility especially in uh the fervor of rebellion but
33:45
this is what's being put out and you can only take what's being said and that is that the Christians
33:51
the Jews the alawites and any other minorities have been told uh that you are safe you will
33:58
protected you uh can continue your life as normal and we've seen some videos come out of rebels
34:05
talking with and um standing with Christian ladies and uh welcoming them and thanking them there's a
34:12
friend of mine who's there talk of Sharif who's uh standing next to a Christmas tree with some of the
34:18
Christian fren is over there so I don't think so it's not within the Islamic belief system to harm
34:25
or mistreat people of another religion it's just not our it's not our belief system and if people did that in the past it's because they didn't follow how uh what Islam says about the treatment
Minorities
34:36
of minorities in a sense do you think that because of course um jolani and HTS and the other groups
34:43
that had administered idlib they had to deal with the daily uh routine or daily life of minorities
34:50
within within idlib so do you think in a sense I mean you know of course this revolution has taken
34:56
13 years to get to mature inah to something but do you think that uh small stint as administrators or
35:03
governance in ITP is actually help them mature and develop um uh you know broader policies that
35:12
will put a place of in good stead for inshah some form of of of governance structure in in Syria as
35:19
a whole well there have to be because they have to deal with so many disperate and uh different types
35:25
of ideologies and groups and belief systems and you know for example the the region of the Syrian
35:31
National army they will have to deal with them that's they're not HTS yeah and they are a force
35:37
as they're a military force as well as much as they are uh syrians so they will have to deal with them and to um uh what I've heard also is that there are groups of uh Drews and others who've
35:49
actually joined the revolution even the Kurds have fought now against Assad so all of them are coming
35:57
together it's the question will be how will they manage it that will be the that would be the the litmus test but if you just take a look in inaz for example an Islamic group that rules of that
36:06
area um it isn't the Islamic group that's uh targeting and bombing the churches through thir
36:13
Century churches and and monasteries and so forth It's the Israelis doing that and if you ask the Christians from the Palestinians um what do they say about their oppressor it's very clear their
36:25
oppressor isn't the Muslims their oppressor is the Zionist and in the same way I think that you'll
36:30
find um that if voices are allowed to to come out of Syria that they will say that our oppressor has
36:37
been the Assad regime for all of these decades can I ask you a question about Assad um the criticism
Assad against Israel?
36:45
of the opposition is that uh assard uh was someone but the West wanted to get rid of partly because
36:54
or completely because Assad was SP opposition against Israel and us had played a central role
37:01
in this fight against Israel and so it's all part of his plan and I suppose the insinuation
37:06
there is that the Americans are either turning a blind eye or even promoting this in order to uh
37:12
in order to undermine uh a pro Palestinian country or faction like do you find anything within that
37:21
uh criticism that makes sense to you just think about it the last time that uh Syria under the
37:28
assads fought against Israel you know the the key imperialist Zionist entity in that region yeah was
37:37
in 1973 yeah it's like 52 odd years ago that's the last time they fought and whilst it's true there
37:44
were they fought before that um after that and especially after the Goan heights were taken today
37:51
to this day the majority of the Golan Heights are in are occupied uh several years after the
37:57
with the the war in 73 Israel annexed the whole place it is now Israeli territory territory and
38:04
they'd even got a brigade called the Golani Brigade which is fighting in Gaza and taking
38:10
a bit of a kicking from what I've understood um but they have totally occupied it so the question is this that your country borders this place that you're supposed to be this great Anti-Imperialist
38:24
against what have you ever done for 50 years to take let not let alone to defend or to help or
38:32
to arm the resistance in Gaza or to fight or to send your troops to or your aircraft to defend
38:39
them what have you done to take on back your own land and when Israel bombs you which it has
38:45
been doing even now as we speak what retaliatory action do you do as this great Anti-Imperialist
38:53
uh Defender you bomb idb instead you you bomb the your own people yeah that the people that
38:59
you're supposed to be looking after and taking care of you're actually bombing them and saying it's them is the problem not the people that are actually bombing you so that tells you all you
39:09
need to know about this so-call um presence of uh Syria um being this place that the West don't want
Palestinian resistance on Syria
39:18
also let me ask you about uh the resistance the Palestinian resistance and their relationship with
39:26
uh with Assad and also a relationship with uh the Syrian resistance because of course the impression
39:33
we get is that the Palestinian resistance is very much pro-assad and and that that is the
39:38
One Singular narrative that comes through from his antier left and from Iran and others like explain
39:45
that relationship to me please so first of all let's look at this ideologically they come from
39:50
the same place they' both um essentially come from the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood the
39:57
they're targeted in hammer in the'80s and still the revolution it starts off at least to some
40:06
extent with those influences uh in in 20112 in uh in Palestine and particularly in it's still
40:15
inl is uh the Muslim Brotherhood essentially so they are ideological Brothers they're from
40:25
the same uh movement so it is natural for them to support one another and so when the Syrian
40:31
Revolution begins you have the leaders of uh the Palestinian resistant like hania uh and
40:37
others uh photographed with images of the free Syrian flag and so forth and they are
40:44
uh presenting this uh as something they they they call them the brave Syrian people rising
40:52
up for their rights now as a result of that they have to relocate because Hamas has a presence in
40:57
in Syria yeah um but even now if you look at for example the statements by T N who
41:04
one of the spokespeople he makes it very very clear that this is something that we're deeply proud of and happy about we don't separate one from the other um there are statements
41:14
by people like senoir before he passed away before he was killed um in which he talks
41:20
about this the the asset or talks about Syria in itself but it's understood unfortunately
41:27
that the Palestinians have been uh abandoned by the Sunni world yes they have been abandoned by
41:34
their neighbors and that's primarily because these governments are run by despots tyrants
41:41
who like we've said before were implementing the US torture program in all of their lands Jordan
41:48
and and Egypt and even Syria to be honest with you they were all doing it but at least there was some
41:54
resite they had we've already explained how Syria didn't do anything to defend itself against Israel
42:00
let alone anyone else and the only place you can see that somebody's actually taken up the armed
42:06
struggle to fight is in Lebanon and whatever your view of what's happened to hisbah or not
42:11
you can't take that away from them you kiss cannot and so but the relationship it's natural there are
42:19
so many videos I've seen coming out from ordinate people of Palestine when we see your freedom when
42:25
we see you coming back to your homes when we see you exercise the right to return to your home we think about us going back to our homes and it's natural for them so I think that connection
42:36
um is only going to build and people who say that as a result of what's happened in Syria
42:42
Palestine is being forgotten Palestine will never be forgotten uh maim um I feel that a lot of us
Islamic activism
42:49
have like developed our political um knowledge and a political advocacy and a political uh
42:57
activism upon uh these very shaky and fragile Anti-Imperialist standards that we we get from
43:05
commentators on on the net and I I just wonder whether we need to recalibrate that and build
43:12
it upon more solid foundations and for you and I it's Islam right like what is it within Islam
43:18
that what are the Islamic Concepts that should guide our activism moving forward
43:23
these are the Hadith of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and the ver of the Quran Allah says he says the same verse again but this time with so he connects the concept of being united
43:40
with ta with fearing Allah subhana tala and the second concept of being connected to the
43:45
concept of of worship so our Unity is an act of worship Allah says hold on to the Rope of Allah
43:54
be not disunited he's explained how the Muslims are the brothers of Muslims and one part of the
44:00
body feels pain it is the rest of the part part part of the body that feels it we feel it in
44:05
palistine we feel it in in Syria it connects us and we keep it keeps us as one Brotherhood
44:11
it doesn't mean that anybody that's outside of that Brotherhood uh is abandoned or put aside it's just this extra connection uh which is a a Rabani connection it's a it's a Divine
44:21
connection that uh follows us into the Hereafter uh what we do for our our brothers in this dun
44:28
will will see its fruits in the Hereafter yeah and when we try to help people even who are not
44:35
from our um they're not from Islam but we come to their assistance when they're facing an injustice
44:40
even if it's from us because the prophet Sall Ali wasallam said help your brother whether he's an oppressor or oppressed and the companion said y we know we understand helping him when he's
44:50
oppressed that makes complete sense how do you help him when he's an oppressor and he said by staying his hand taking control contr of him and trying to stop his oppression and that is a part
45:00
of our Brotherhood uh with Islam with our brothers it's part of what we love for our brothers what we
45:06
love for ourselves we don't want to see them doing any Injustice to anyone but neither can we allow
45:12
Injustice being tolerated upon ourselves or anyone else so this is part of our our our connection to
45:19
the umah to whoever they happen to be and our Islamic framework connects Us in this way my
45:24
final question for you is that are we going to be able to say without consequence let's go and visit
Will we be able to visit Syria
45:30
Syria well I wonder what what happened to me last time I went there um look Syria now has become a
45:38
part of a living part of our reality the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said if the people of
45:46
sham and Sham is not just Syria it's Palestine it's Lebanon it's Jordan it's even a bit of turkey
45:52
if the people of this region become corrupted there's no good in you and who's he talking
45:57
to he's talking to people like like there's no good in you if those people get corrupted
46:03
so it's part of our faith to be wanted to connect to this place Allah used to say the prophet Allah Place blessing in our land of sham Place blessing in our land of Yemen so this is
46:17
a blessed land and we should feel connected to want to go and visit all these lands and
46:23
have you know it's the land of the prophets it's the land where Allah when he says he's
46:29
talking about this land this is the land of the of the Fig Tree and the Olive Tree um so we should we should want to go there um but not yet thank you so much for your time today
46:41
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46:49
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