Ep 172. - The Imam Taking on Kamala Harris and her Cheerleaders - Imam Tom Facchine
The US elections are in full flow, with the two big parties focussing on the key swing states that will decide this election. In states like Michigan, a slight movement of voters can determine the outcome. And this means Muslim voters may play a decisive role. To help us understand the political and intellectual climate, I have invited back onto the show Imam Tom Facchine show. Imam Tom has been instrumental in galvanising Muslims behind the anti-Harris campaign, and he joins us from Pennsylvania.
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Read Muhammad Jalal's full article here: https://jalalayn.substack.com/p/harris-genocide-must-come-at-a-political
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and some of the language may not reflect the actual conversation
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if we prove our loyalty then they will throw us some breadcrumbs the very first step of making that reality come true is to deliver a resounding loss to the Democrats you are
0:10
effectively supporting Trump how would you respond to that vast majority of Muslims are abandoning
0:16
the two parties they're not content with either of the major two parties they're interested in third party voting genocide is a red line I will not cross it I will not step over those bodies
0:24
when I go to the polling station in November I have challenged Mage board members and the CEO
0:30
himself on WhatsApp groups since January and February what would it take for you to walk away from the Democrats this is exactly the type of politics jalow who has put us
0:38
into the genocide in the first place that's why it upsets me Jal that's why it upsets me the US elections are in full flow with the two big political parties focusing on the key
0:52
swing states that will decide this election in States like Michigan a slight movement of Voters
0:58
can determine the out and this means Muslim voters may play a decisive role this explains a frenetic
1:06
activity especially from the Democrats in reaching out to disenchanted voters outraged at their
1:12
continuous support for genocide just yesterday a letter was leaked probably planted by the Biden
1:19
Harris Administration suggesting pressure is being applied to the Israeli regime it all seems for
1:26
domestic context the Democrats are desperate that's why incidentally you've seen a greater
1:31
focus and attack on those who are anti-h Harris and in particular my interview with Sami Hamdi
1:37
has come under a lot of focus uh especially the sections that went viral now to help us understand
1:44
the political and intellectual climate I've invited back onto the show Imam Tom fakini Imam
1:50
Tom has been instrumental I believe in galvanizing Muslims behind the anti-h Harris campaign and he
1:56
joins us from Pennsylvania IM and thank you for joining us I'm sorry I couldn't be with you in
2:02
person it's always great to do anything together hopefully next time inshallah inshallah tala it'd
Mehdi re Trump worse
2:11
be great to to see you sometime soon now let's start with the video put out by Medi Hassan uh
2:17
where he effectively doubled down on endorsing Kamala Harris he makes a few assertions in his
2:23
interview or in his video but can you specifically tackle I think the central claim that supporting
2:29
a Third Party candidate effectively gives Trump the presidency and Trump will be worse for Muslims
2:36
absolutely UHD um meth's video had had several problematic claims um we'll focus on the one
2:45
that you mentioned another one that he uh sort of put in was or implied was the equivalence of the
2:54
genocide that's going on now um in Palestine to other sort of things that have happened in Yemen
3:00
uh and the degree of responsibility I think that he sort of made an elij in there that needs to be
3:05
called out that the degree of responsibility of the US with Palestine is is much higher than the
3:11
degree of responsibility and active involvement of the US and Yemen though obviously what has been
3:17
happening in Yemen is is is also quite tragic um another of the egregious claims was that
3:23
um imams are sort of um you know manipulating their masses by weaponizing the faith against
3:29
them he came with from right secularist or pro- secularist idea of what we do when we do political analysis and talk as if our faith shouldn't inform our political decisions as if
3:38
we just have to completely lobotomize that part of our brain or our souls um when we make political decisions that was very strange and the third one is more common um which you bring our attention
3:49
to and and it deserves attention the idea that uh Trump will be worse and that voting a third party
3:55
is going to deliver a worse outcome and this is not straightforward nor is it apparently
4:01
true uh for several reasons first of all political forecasting is very shady business and Robin vade
4:06
has a very nice account of this on his substack which is named occasional Reflections where he
4:12
goes through several scenarios and he demonstrates that um while there might be more unpredictability
4:18
with Trump and we'll get to that in a second um it's not simple arithmetic to say that Trump is
4:26
going to lead to a worse situation in Palestine nor is it true that what is worse will extend for
4:33
as long so some of the examples and scenarios that moin had played out um it might be true that Trump
4:39
is more hamfisted we say and more egregious and more belligerent but that might also accelerate
4:45
the isolation and the eventual downfall of the genocidal occupying state of Israel right that
4:52
is definitely something that has happened in fact you could argue that there is a precedence for this in recent history because as since the Oso ords were signed um things that were the status
5:03
quo in Palestine up until October 7th of 2023 was a slow genocide it was just a slow genocide that
5:10
was out of view and because it was so slow it was something that was easy to hide and forget
5:16
and stop paying attention to now after October 7th 2023 the past year things were accelerated and the
5:24
genocide was accelerated to such an extent that it it deserved and evoked Universal condemnation
5:31
from the world both the uh the masses of people and the political actors which has actually put
5:37
Israel in a much worse situation in now we're in October 2024 than it was in September 2023 people
5:45
are questioning Israel's right to exist they're questioning the wisdom behind a an Israel an
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Israeli us Alliance they're questioning APAC they're questioning um you know unmitigated
5:56
unconditional uh military aid they're questioning all sorts of things that a year and one month ago
6:02
people were not questioning so it's not it this doesn't unfold linearly such that um a a worse or
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a more aggressive or a more accelerated situation necessarily leads to a worse situation things
6:15
might in certain scenarios have to get bad quickly in order for them to fall apart and eventually
6:21
break through to something better um but even then and I know that we were planning on talking about
6:28
about this as well um there's other dimensions to which this uh this sort of forecasting isn't
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necessarily the point that this type of analysis or the idea that Trump is going to be worse
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assumes that all of the current political actors are going to continue to act in the way that they are and the idea of voting for a third party and the idea for delivering a loss to the Democrats
6:50
and finally attaching a political cost to Zionism or the support for the Zionist occupying state
6:57
is precisely to change the behavior of political actors that right now and up until now political
7:04
actors have only considered support for Zionism and asset therefore their their behavior has
7:10
been very predictable however what if we were to put a cost to it that made it a liability that
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anybody who was being taking money from APAC or supporting you know again unconditional military
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aid or supporting the genocide in any sort of way then became a one- term or a certain to lose or
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um you know politically precarious if we were to construct that situation and Achieve that reality
7:37
that would change the behavior of political actors and you would see support for Zionism evaporate
7:43
Thomas Massie the representative from the appellations he has said something similar that in private conversations even Republicans are not happy what having a babysitter from APAC follow
7:54
them everywhere and see everything that they're doing they're not happy to have to support Israel but they do it in public because supporting Israel is a safe bet politically it's a sa safe bet for
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their careers it's a safe bet for their power once it stops being a safe bet once it becomes
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a liability people will avoid it like the plague and it's up to us to make that reality come true
8:17
and the very first step it's not going to happen immediately but the very first step of making that reality come true is to deliver a resounding loss to the Democrats in this November election
8:29
because of their support for genocide Tom um your detractors will say that you may be punishing the
You are supporting Trump
8:36
Democrats but inevitably because you're calling upon Muslims to vote for a third party and I'll
8:42
come to who that third party may or may not be but because you're calling upon Muslims to vote for a third party you are effectively supporting Trump how would you respond to that um that's not
8:55
true like you support Trump by supporting Trump you don't support Trump by supporting this is
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the same type of beer mongering and scare tactics that keep us powerless that there is a pathway to
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build political power for the US Muslim Community and it has to do with using our vote strategically
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in a way that um evades this sort of Zero Sum uh two-party logic that one of the most threatening
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things to um our situation in the United States and by extension why do we care about the United
9:29
States politics because US foreign policy sets the parameters for much of the world's foreign
9:34
policy and what is happening um one of the reasons that we care is because as long as we only have
9:40
two options and they continue to browbeat us into only operating within those two options
9:46
those two options are getting progressively and progressively worse and I think that we've seen this even if you were to compare the differences in policy between Harris and Trump they're to be
9:56
frank they're very few they're very little that most of the differences between the two candidates are in Optics that uh Harris is a super cop she's somebody who made her reputation
10:07
as the you know as this sort of tough on crime person who is very very uh toxic towards the
10:13
African-American Community when she had her time in California uh she's very bad just like Trump
10:20
on immigration and the Border she's got all sorts of policies if you track we're saying 50 years of
10:27
policy between Democrats and Republicans they have only become more and more like each other and they
10:33
only become more and more like each other because there is no competition within the political space
10:38
there is no third party that is Insurgent that is trying to anounce something that would change the behavior of these two political parties and it was funny that methy brought up the situation
10:47
of Ross perau because Ross perau in the early 90s is actually perfect a perfect illustration of how
10:52
a third party can change the political behavior of the main two parties that Ross perau ran on
10:58
the idea of balancing budget back then that was something people cared about you see how now that nobody even brings that up anymore another sort of indictment of how the two- party system
11:07
has unfolded and is working mostly in collusion with each other think Coca-Cola Pepsi rather than
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sort of uh opposing each other like they want you to think that Ross perau ran on the platform of
11:18
balancing the budget and his that resonated with so many people that he took so many votes away
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even though he didn't win that he affected the policies of both parties when it came to the next
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election the Democrats made sure that balancing the budget was part of their platform and that
11:36
sort of they did that to take away the power from the third party so this is how political change happens and don't let anybody tell you that it's not I just want to get some clarification from you
Trump vs Harris
11:46
about Donald Trump um Donald Trump is a Zionist right and uh so is Cala Harris the Democrats and
11:54
Republicans are currently strongly wedded to a pro-israel pro-israel isi defense policy how do
12:01
you measure them in terms of their vifer or their the manner by which they may create a
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danger when it comes to just Palestine like do you see one to be greater than the other or the
12:16
two to be equal to one another I think that Aris is very predictable and she is ideologically tied
12:22
to Zionism I from how I see Trump I do not see Trump as ideologically tied to Zionism
12:29
as Harris or the Democrats are I see Trump as more opportunistically attached to Zionism and
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therefore I see him as a wild card I think that he is more unpredictable um both in his intent
12:42
and his actions and in the consequences of his actions now whenever you get someone who's more unpredictable obviously there is risk and there is risk that something will be worse but there is
12:51
also risk that something will end up being better either because he intends it or not okay so let
12:58
me give you a concrete example of how unintended consequences might end up being better for example
13:03
when Trump was the president previously he um tried to beef up and bolster the cve program our
13:09
equivalent of prevent in the UK and he renamed it the counter count it was called countering violent
13:15
extremism it became countering violent islamism okay so he he did it in this again very hamfisted
13:22
way um that alienated a lot of people people quit the program and the program basically collapsed
13:29
overnight because of his own incompetence we remember the Trump days how he uh many of his cabinet positions many of the Staffing positions were completely empty that it was a
13:37
very dysfunctional government and a lot of things didn't get done right this is by no design of his
13:43
but it's part of the unpredictability that comes with a trump presidency so there are opportunities
13:49
within that unpredictability when it comes to his intentions even his intentions I do not see Trump
13:55
as being as ideologically committed to Zionism as Harris or the Democrats I think that Trump at the
14:00
end of the day is a businessman and Trump will go where he thinks is going to be good for him I
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think that and if you carefully follows the things that he's said and done over the past 10 years the
14:11
past you know 15 years that this indicates that he has expressed frustration with Netanyahu and
14:16
Netanyahu has expressed frustration with him Trump has said that Netanyahu is not a good-faith actor
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when it comes to uh negotiations uh Trump has said that when it that the US's ability to br
14:29
a deal because he had sort of um grandio um let's see machinations we could say or he had
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ambition to create the sort of Master deal for the Middle East and he thought that the Abraham accor were part of that he thought that Netanyahu um in addition to Netanyahu not being a goodfaith
14:45
negotiator he thought that the US's ability to negotiate this deal or to arbitrate this deal was
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compromised by it being perceived as uh as being on one side which it is you know this is sort of
14:57
the hypocrisy that the Biden Administration will not name that they are pretending to be negotiators and Arbiters when in reality they are funders they are funding one particular side
15:06
of the genocide and they are they are completely erasing the other so Trump gets that now what it
15:13
would take to get Trump to actually act on that is a different matter it would basically have to become costly I think that if you make Zionism and the whole racket that is Israel if you were
15:24
to make it costly enough I think that there is a scenario in which Trump would do something that
15:30
would be detrimental to uh to Israel its survival and its existence and the sort of perpetuation of
15:38
its genocide that's not saying it's a short fire thing but I think that that possibility is there
15:43
with the Trump Administration as opposed to a a a Harris Democrat Administration and also it should
15:50
be said don't take at face value the things that Netanyahu has said recently about Trump or you
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know and I believe that methy brought this up in his video that uh Netanyahu is hoping for a trump presidency you don't think that Netanyahu calculated very carefully what that statement
16:05
was going to do but the action and the worth of that statement was going to do when he when he said it he wants the perception I believe that Netanyahu wants people to perceive that he is
16:15
hoping for a trump presidency but I do not think if you go into the into The Ether I do not think
16:21
that Netanyahu is actually deep down uh happy with Trump or has confidence in Trump I think that they
16:27
will but buttheads if for no other reason that they are both egomaniacs they are both people who
16:33
have their own agendas and those agendas do not often Ally so I think that again this is not no
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one has a crystal ball on politics um there is a possibility that things could get really bad or even worse however I do think that there are certain fissures and opportunities that open up
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with a trump regime uh that just simply aren't there when it comes to the Harris regime or the
16:54
Democrats who continue to feed us lies they continue to treat us as if we're stupid you
17:00
you mentioned the uh the statement that was leaked about this sort of pressuring yeah now we're going
17:05
to set a deadline for Israel to sort of clean up its act and it happens to extend past the election
17:11
date it's a 30-day deadline while another uh while boots are are going on the ground us boots are now
17:17
on the ground uh supporting Israel militarily this has been the policy of the Democrats for since the
17:24
beginning that they will give you whatever lip service they think will break your resolve to oppose them on one hand while they will keep on doing the same exact policy that they have
17:34
been intending to do on the other hand so there is basically to sum it up I see there is zero
17:40
possibility for change with a democratic regime and some even if it's precarious possibility
17:45
for change under Trump and allot his best yeah I mean um as you said Imam Tom a lot of his hinges
Lesser of the two evils
17:51
on political foresight and as you said political analysis is not um a scientific uh experience and
17:59
and sometimes we can uh we can draw conclusions which are either superficial or slightly more deeper but we can never be sure about uh politics in in a year or two years or three years time but
18:11
let's come back to the principle that a lot of this arguments uh a lot of the debates that
18:16
are currently raging in Muslim communities uh in America a principle of that underpins this
18:22
conversation and that's the principle of the lesser of the two evils now I understand uh
18:28
although we use in general Parliament this is an Islamic principle there is a there's a principle
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within um uh you know Islamic history or classical Islamic or normative Islamic understanding of the
18:41
lesser of the two principles idea um can you give us some idea of how Scholars uh view this
18:49
principle and how maybe we can apply it to the elections it's a very very good question and
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honestly there needs to be a deep study into every Islamic princip that has been misused and abused
19:00
in the last 12 months um we've seen the Ed police come out and try to prevent people from holding
19:07
Muslim leaders accountable saying oh but he's a good brother oh but you have to give him 70 excuses oh but you don't know what's in his heart even as a particular individual com completely
19:16
sells out um the Muslims in Palestine and at home um and you see this you see the application the
19:22
won and sort of maximalist application of uh this lesser of to Evil's principle which is a principle
19:29
but it has conditions to it and it situations and it is a principle that is it is a principle that
19:37
is maybe used in the instance a a short-term instance where there's an individual calculus
19:43
being made it is not a longterm strategy okay and that I think is the key difference when we're
19:49
trying to map this F principle or this or this on to politics is that if you continue and this has
19:58
been the political establishment's um tactic or strategy for some time if you take lesser of two
20:05
evils as your consistent basis upon which you're making decisions for years and years and years
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your options are going to get more and more evil right it doesn't have anything there's there's
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no entrance within this sort of um the application of this rule to do anything to make your situation
20:25
better or to make your choices better so if you're for into a situation where you have to
20:31
choose between two things then yes you always are required to choose the lesser of two harms
20:36
if there are harm there are harms present in both things however it is not a strategy for long-term
20:42
decision- making rather you have to there are other principles such as said such as blocking
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the means um you know where you are attempting to look into the future and see well if we make this
20:54
decision now then it's actually going to create a worse situ uation 4 years from now or 8 years from
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now or 12 years from now and so we might actually have to suffer a lesser harm and now we'll flip
21:08
the logic on its head we might have to suffer what in the short term is a greater harm in order to
21:14
prevent a long-term harm okay so if we're going to say okay lesser to evil sure perhaps but which
21:22
one is lesser first of all second of all perhaps that you have to take on a greater evil upfront
21:27
and initially in order to prevent a more long-term egregious evil down the road and third of all this
21:33
is no way to plan a community or to plan Community power that if you look at how the da of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam was conducted from the time of Mecca to then the the
21:42
first Hijra to habas to the the subsequent HRA to Medina it was not every single situation lesser of
21:50
two evils lesser of two evils lesser of two evils lesser of two evils there was a concrete plan to
21:56
build power there was a concrete plan to identify opportunities there was a concrete plan to build
22:03
leverage this is why the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam sent some of the Muslims to Abu this is
22:08
why he went to went to to try to see if the people of T were were responsive this is why he had and
22:17
had this sort of beon with the people of Medina as they came to Mecca and other tribes when they came to Mecca that that was not the only principle being used and if lesser Two Eagles becomes the
22:28
only principle that we're using we will find ourselves in a very very evil situation now um
Emgage and Harris
22:34
Imam Tom there are some organizations in America that have come out in support of Harris I mean one such organization is image and uh of course we don't have any members uh with us today to
22:45
defend their position so I think we need to be uh aware of that but um can you make sense of
22:52
their stance like why would they argue uh that we should support uh we should support Harris
23:00
so Mage is an AstroTurf organization that's the opposite of Grassroots that means it doesn't have
23:05
any organic place with in the Muslim Community in and of itself it was founded in early 2000s
23:13
by ismis and Florida it was not even pretending to be at its onset a uh a group that was supposed
23:21
to represent Muslims I forget what their initial incorporating name was it was something completely different had nothing to do with Muslims one year they wake up decide that they want to represent
23:30
Muslims uh and they have sort of done this stance for a while now where they present themselves to
23:38
the Democratic party as the power Brokers of the Muslim Community when the reality is they
23:44
are no such thing and they have done things such as taking credit for Coalition work that they've done get out the vote you know they had their million Muslim vote sort of campaign in previous
23:54
elections that was a coalition effort with care and with other sort of organizations that do have Organic Roots within the Muslim community and what Mage does is it positions itself and sells
24:04
itself to the Democratic establishment as uh sort of these representatives of the Muslim
24:10
Community and it's not so in response or in sort of what's in it for mgage mgage gets specific
24:19
access to power they get certain appointments if you track sort of the political careers of their Founders um they have relationships and people in the Department of Defense uh the the
24:29
small contracts and small business contracts uh person within the Department of Defense who's basically whose job is to um make sure that minorities get a larger piece of the military
24:40
industrial complex Pi that is someone who's a former mgage uh board member right you've got
24:46
people who have worked in all sorts of capacities that are complicit with us Empire so there's an
24:53
exchange that goes on when it comes to positions um there's also access that that takes place
24:58
and there's also we should talk about this there's sort of um other machinations that are going on
25:04
and it's relevant to another question I know you intended to ask about using us Empire for um for
25:10
let's say narrow or or nationalistic or ethnic aims there are several people at the high level at
25:16
mgage that are syrians that are attempting to use they believe that the Democrats are the ones that
25:21
are going to deliver the policy that they want on Syria and so that they are all in on the Democrats
25:27
um they've essentially sold out Palestine for Syria um and I have evidence I have you know on my phone I've got a particular document that was signed by W the current CEO of Mage where he
25:38
signs his name off on um the importance on arming Israel as a counterweight to Iran because if Iran
25:46
has too much power in the Middle East then it will be bad for Syria and it will turn Syria into
25:51
another Iraq um which of course we don't want that to happen to Syria however uh we're not willing to
25:57
arm Israel in order to achieve that goal and that is uh problematic to the to the Palestinians and
26:03
to the OM so this is the type of organization that is endorsing Harris and you'll find that
26:08
uh where does their money come from does their money actually come from the Muslim Community no it doesn't it comes through grants it comes through the tentacles of the democratic party
26:16
um who launder their money through this sort of uh nonprofit conglomerate there's a sort of U nonprofit industrial complex if you will of different organizations that are funded uh
26:27
indirectly by Democratic party and Democratic party aligned groups um and those are the
26:33
types of organizations that are either coming out explicitly for Harris or are even worse exploiting
26:40
the fissures in the Muslim American community in order to uh basically drum of support for Harris
26:46
so we have this particular letter after we did a very Grassroots organic imam's letter we had over
26:52
130 imams sign itan signed it Yas kadi signed it de W signed it myself signed it um instructing the
27:00
Muslims of America to not vote for either Harris or Trump to instructing them to vote third party
27:06
to vote your conscience um that this was something that that caused the establishment to panic this
27:11
was true grass uh Grassroots power and so they came up with their own letter uh conducted by
27:17
ausi ausi um works for isna he was praised by the ADL he's the adl's man anti- defamation League a
27:26
very Zionist organization they got together I think 25 imams and religious leaders you know
27:33
from the African-American Community mostly thein Muhammad Community um and so this is something
27:39
where there's yes there's a disconnect and there's a fissure between the sort of immigrant Muslim Community and the Muhammad community and the African-American community at large however
27:50
this was exploited this is being exploited by groups like mgage who set up the black Muslim Leadership Council another similar initiative um and by uh sunusi and and his crew from isna who
28:02
are doing something similar so that's fairly cynical they're basically attempting to use
28:07
these fissures to portray or manifest if you'll use common parlaments or contemporary Parliament
28:15
speak into being this Muslim support for Harris to portray this uh perception that Muslims are
28:22
falling in line for Harris that Trump is the greater threat that um we really only care about domestic issues that Palestine is just one issue this is something that we're hearing son
28:32
uh formerly of AJ plus leaked in the past week a whole list an internal document that such groups
28:39
are using as talking points against the Muslims in order to beat them back into uh supporting
28:44
Harris in in a month so this is a very inorganic effort um whereas if you look at the pulse of the
28:51
community in Yak Institute has released data on this the pulse of the community is actually very
28:56
very different from this perception that groups like M Gage are trying to sell to the Democrats to make them feel good about their prospects in in November that the reality is that the vast
29:06
majority of Muslims are abandoning the two parties they're not content with either of the major two parties they're interested in third party voting um they're looking to vote their conscience they
29:15
cannot vote for somebody who is responsible for the genocide they have stood up on two feet and
29:20
said that genocide is a red line I will not cross it I will not step over those bodies when I go
29:26
to the polling station in November that I have standards and you cannot cow me into uh abandoning
29:33
these principles just for you know for other sort of ulterior motives and as I said uh um we don't
Emgage no excuse
29:41
have someone from engage to respond to uh your criticisms but um I will just one one last thing I
29:48
have I have challenged Mage board members and the CEO himself and WhatsApp group since January and
29:53
February and I have always asked them very very simple questions I have said what would it take
29:59
for you to walk away from the Democrats in What scenario give me anything just tell me what the
30:05
calculus is if you're going to tell me that this is like the best thing for the Muslim Community if I close my eyes and pinch my nose and try to give you 70,000 excuses um to say that you're you
30:15
know perhaps a good faith actor or and you're just mistaken maybe R that's possible but tell
30:20
me the situation in which you don't call Muslims to go back how many bodies how many Palestinians
30:28
how many lands have to be conquered and I couldn't get an answer Jal nobody would answer me because
30:34
there is no answer that Mage and others groups they are tied and wedded married betrothed to
30:40
the Democratic party and there is no leverage there whatsoever this is the idea of politics
30:46
through relationships that if we are loyalty first politics if we prove our loyalty then
30:51
they will throw us some breadcrumbs they will give us Optics they will give us some diversity hires they will tokenize one of our own and put them in a high position and this is exactly the
30:59
type of politics Jal who has put us into the genocide in the first place this is exactly the type of politics that has led us to the situation why these organizations are complete failures and
31:10
why I care and why I take time away from my family and I spend way too much time on WhatsApp because
31:16
these people do not have sound political Vision they benefit individually they benefit through
31:21
Optics they benefit through just breadcrumbs and they have no plan to build actual power from mus
31:28
in America and that's why it upsets me Jal that's why it upsets me so yes it's true that Mage is not
31:33
here to defend themselves but they've had their chances they've had their opportunities and the Muslim Community is waking up for G groups like Mage and other groups that are going to go with
31:42
the what I've been calling bani diplomacy the idea that you're going to do loyalty first politics and you're going to ingratiate yourself and humiliate yourself in front of power in order
31:51
to get what you want it has led us to where we are today and if anybody wants to wave around
31:57
the credentials and say I've been doing this for 10 years I've been doing this for 15 years you are the problem your 10 and 15 years has got us nothing have got us nothing and your 10 and 15
32:06
years and all of your experience now counts as a strike against you and not actually as something for you that the Muslim Community alhamdulillah has woken up and they have started taking these
32:16
people to account and they have started pushing it back against these people and they have started building other things on their own and I'm here for it to that we are going to build something
32:25
new we're going to build something different we're going to convert this is different where methy was wrong again when it comes to saying okay well we tried to S the election in 2000
32:32
and we swung to Bush and look how that turned out this is different Jal we are going to build something different and new we are going to build something that will bring power political power to
32:41
the Muslims of America that's going to be smart it's going to be principled and it's going to be dignified it's not going to get us rich it's not going to get us appointments it's not going to get
32:49
us defense department Department contracts it's not going to sell out our brothers and sisters in Palestine or in Syria or in Iraq or in Yemen or anywhere else it's not going to be cynical
32:58
it's not going to be based on the politics of cism which is mostly what we see from these Talking
33:03
Heads uh that we see today who are trying to push us back to voting for Harris in a month thank you
Michigan is the showdown
33:08
very much you Mom Tom I I think we have a fair share of organizations like mgage probably in the UK who are deeply connected to the labor party and we had very similar conversations here and it
33:20
it did seem to me that the Muslim Community was completely separated and disconnected
33:25
from organizations that were effectively uh that effectively sold out to the political parties no
33:31
matter what there were no conditions by which they would separate themselves from those political parties and I think you may have noticed there was a uh an niftar it was Jun Ramadan with the
33:42
labor party and it was whale condemnation of those Muslim leaders who decided they're going
33:47
to attend vak I think that's a really powerful response uh to the actions of of some organization
33:58
let me turn to Michigan because it seems to me and again I'm an outsider here but it seems to me that Michigan is probably The Showdown State here I mean of course there are seven swing States
34:08
and there are other states where Muslims have uh a you know a substantial minority let's call it f i
34:13
mean not very big majority but a substantial minority uh in those States uh but Michigan
34:19
is where it seems the greatest activity from the Democrats seems to be focused and it seems where
34:28
uh commentators argue that the election could be won or lost um you've been to Michigan on
34:33
a number of occasions over the last few weeks um just give me like an an appreciation of the
34:38
political temperature on the ground please very good um actually I'm heading to Michigan Friday I'll be in Michigan Friday I'll be a in Canton I was me to join you if I yeah um so Michigan is the
34:51
key State uh mathematically speaking statistically speaking there are nine scenarios in which Harris
34:58
has a pathway to get the Electoral College votes that she needs to to obtain the White House out
35:03
of nine of those scenarios six out of the nine involve Michigan okay meaning that there's only
35:09
three scenarios in which she can lose Michigan and uh and still become president and this is
35:14
the highest number than for any other state than for for Pennsylvania or for Georgia for Arizona or for any other state so Michigan certainly is the key State and I will say this that I predict and
35:27
we know in in politics you know predictions make a fool out of you I predict that this election is
35:32
going to be very very similar to 2016 I think that Democrats are Plastering on uh a smile and putting
35:40
on a stiff upper upper lip um to use your phrase and they are hiding their Panic that is soon going
35:49
to engulf the party that their uh the numbers have been kind to them I think flattering I would say
35:57
just like they were in 2016 with Hillary Clinton I think that they are in for a very very very rude
36:04
awakening when it comes to November 5th um and here's why I say that among the reasons many many
36:09
reasons first of all because again I'm in probably a hundred WhatsApp groups hundreds of messages a
36:14
day I have I try to keep a pulse on on how people are feeling people have come around to abandon
36:21
Harris and abandon the Democrats let's just say more people than I thought since again I've been
36:27
doing this since about about a year ago November December I I sort of got involved in these sorts of groups and started paying attention carefully trying to study the issues educating myself who
36:36
are who's the actors in This sort of thing um what are people doing I watched the beginning of the uncommitted movement and we'll talk about that in a second um and in January and February it felt
36:48
like to me that okay there's only a small group that really understands how evil the Democrats
36:55
are here and a great a great number of Muslims are going to end up being tricked by them now I have
37:05
been completely proven wrong like I have been pleasantly surprised at how many Muslims common
37:11
everyday Muslims that again a year ago would have been very very sympathetic even would have been um
37:18
willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the Democratic Optics and the um the the discursive
37:24
sort of breadcrumbs that they give and these sort of you know know uh fluff statements these empty words the lip service everybody sees through it now when this this recent statement came out
37:36
about you know yeah we'll give you uh we we'll pressure Israel Israel has 30 days to clean up their act else we're going to start conditioning military aid I didn't see anybody anybody fall for
37:45
it I would not have predicted that in back in in February so we're maturing and we're maturing and
37:51
we're getting smarter at a very very rapid pace which is great the uncommitted movement circling back to that which you know be being someone who was involved in abandoned Biden from the beginning
38:03
when the uncommitted movement started came about I observed it from the beginning saying that
38:08
this is probably a containment operation this is probably something that is tied to the Democratic party in order to contain the abandoned Biden movement and sort of slowly nudge people back
38:17
to the Democratic party come November exactly what happened that's exactly what happened that
38:23
the upper leadership they ended up betraying uh the base and the sentiment of the base and
38:29
basically saying yeah you saw their nonsensical endorsement non-endorsement where they said uh we
38:36
don't formly endorse Harris but we can't vote for Trump and we are telling people not to vote for
38:42
third party cast anti-trump votes that was their recommendation anti-trump votes that aren't third
38:48
party who does that leave Jala that leaves Harris so it was a a sort of cowardly I would say to be
38:54
frank endorsement of Harris like if you're going to end Harris at least be like Mage and say it proudly um it was an endorsement of Harris though they didn't they didn't want to uh use the ew but
39:07
what's happened since then Jal is that the base of the uncommitted movement has called foul they
39:14
are trying to reorganize and they are trying to reclaim the movement and they are saying that the leadership that betrayed us does not represent us that we if we had known that they were going to
39:26
go for Harris at the end of it we would have never taken part in the uncommitted movement and now and
39:31
that is something that the uncommitted movement if you want to have a generous number to it 750,000
39:38
people uh across the country right this is a significant amount of people became a movement in different states it has a national structure Etc so this was something that is a big deal so
39:49
again uncommitted the top leadership who sold out to the Democratic party is on an island they're
39:56
not supported by their base so the Democratic party might feel good and think for a second well
40:02
we played that right with uncommitted and we've got MJ mgage is going to beat the Muslims back and we're creating all these groups every single week week we see a new group Muslim women for Harris
40:10
and Muslims for Harris and and you know this group uh uh I don't know from different there's there's
40:17
different ethnicities they're using our ethnic divisions against us they're using everything but these are all AstroTurf Gill out they're all Paper Tigers it's all perception the actual people
40:29
are not having it and I'm happy about that I'm proud of that I think that this is a mil stone
40:36
for Muslims in America politically and again just to put it bluntly I think that the Democrats are
40:42
in for a very very rude awakening on November 5th can I ask you about uh the green party because I
Green Party challenges
40:48
watched a a little video a snippet on social media where uh I think it was a few months back where
40:55
you came out in support of the green party is that still your position and um there have been some
41:02
valid concerns raised about the green party uh their position on Russia their position on Syria
41:08
in particular but also social POS their social position in the green party is very socially Liberal Party uh or very Progressive Party in terms of its social inclinations and some of those
41:20
things political and soci should do not sit very kindly I suppose with uh with Muslim sensitivities
41:26
or musl opinion so how do you reconcile uh those issues with your endorsement of the green party
41:34
fantastic well just just to put it on record my exact statement that I'm going with now is um I
41:42
believe that all Muslims should vote third party and the most strategic vote is the green party
41:48
okay so maybe I just am guilty of what I just said maybe that makes me a coward I'm not using the ew word um however the reason that I say this so I am telling people to vote green party I think
41:57
that that voting green party is the is the smart choice but not because of necessarily I agree with
42:02
everything that the green party says or stands for in fact the the fact that they cannot win
42:08
makes it easier to endorse the green party because the parts of their positions and policies and the
42:15
things that we find distasteful about them will never come to pass because they will not win so
42:20
we're essentially voting for them for a different reason and here's the here's the important point to that that people have to understand what they're doing when they're voting unfortunately
42:29
this is part of our political immaturity that people think that we're choosing horses in a horse race or people think that we're you know rooting for a soccer match or a football match this is not
42:40
how your vote Works your vote is essentially an attempt in coordinated action that is supposed to
42:47
build power for you and change the behavior of the political actors that are on the scene so we're not necessarily voting for the green party because we like everything that they stand for or because
42:58
we think that there are people there and and Sami ham articulated this well in a WhatsApp message he
43:03
said that people think that they're voting for affiliation we're not voting for affiliation
43:08
we're voting as a tool what is the tool and is it appropriate to our objective our objective is to
43:15
punish the Democrats for their support of genocide and to attach a political cost to the support of
43:20
genocide and the the Zionist occupation in general what's our tool to do that it
43:25
happens to be voting for The Green Party in this particular election what's the long-term strategy it's not just to Simply vote for the greens and accept the status quo as is except accept every
43:36
single uh potential presidential candidate as is no the idea and this is what distinguishes us from
43:43
20 from 2000 when we when we uh pushed Bush into office is that we need to convert the energy and
43:50
the infrastructure and the organization that we have built in the last 12 months to something that
43:57
transcends where we we're at now possibility one and it's an unlikely possibility but just to do
44:02
a thought experiment is if all of the Muslims who are PL who are planning on voting green registered
44:09
as green party members perhaps we would have such a critical mass within the green party that we
44:15
could then take over effectively the green party and control the policies and then rid it from the
44:20
policies that we don't agree with or at least get it minimized to a level of no harm possibility two
44:27
is that we take the same vehicles that we have constructed in the last 12 months all of the NOS
44:32
all of the 501 c3s and 501 C4s and all the packs and the super packs and all the organizations and
44:38
we convert it into something else whether it's a new political party or whether it's other
44:44
types of you know uh think tanks or institutes or infrastructure we need infrastructure to allow we
44:49
don't have the leaders that we want we look across the political Spectrum every single person let's go to the Socialists go to the libertarian party go to uh all of them cornal West even we don't see
45:00
the people that we want across the board we don't see the the potential leaders that we actually want but we have to build the infrastructure today to create the possibility for the leaders
45:10
that we want to be an option tomorrow to actually have that that possibility exist so we have to be
45:17
to realize what we're doing when we're voting for the green party as is my recommendation is
45:22
that this is Domino one or Domino 2 of a line of Domin know this is a a sequential plan for Muslim
45:31
Americans to build political power in the United States and it is not simply we're now affiliated with the green party and we're all in with them and we love everything that they do and we're
45:39
going to take them into uh you know with open arms that's not what we're calling for it all I think that's a really coherent argument and and and a great response um I had a message sent to me
Quantifying our Gaza votes
45:49
from a sister in Chicago a message from a sister in Chicago where she said she agrees uh she's not
45:57
going to vote for uh the Democrats or the Republicans so that part she agrees but she
46:03
finds a very difficult then to vote for any of the third party candidates in particular a green party
46:08
I think that the most straightforward argument is that we need to quantify our displeasure with
46:14
genocide okay and that's why and I know that you wanted to talk about exstension you know in
46:20
general and that's why abstaining is not an option and that's why even I'm not so happy although I
46:27
I'm I'm generally pleased with let's say the US cmo's um guidance on the election and car's
46:33
guidance on the election who has said basically vote third party vote your conscience don't vote for the main two parties that's better but it's not giving us a strategic move that will quantify
46:45
our power right and so the Muslims rallying behind a third party upon the Assumption and I've had
46:51
other people bring it up to me well what if the election was too close to call um you know should we should we be voting voting Trump I say that I think that Trump's going to win anyway I think
47:01
that Harris is going to lose and lose badly um but I think that the if you vote for Trump or if you
47:08
don't vote or you disperse your votes across the third parties or whatever it is you lose
47:13
that quantifiability of your protest that if we have the bulk of Muslims putting their votes you
47:20
know consider the green party just a placeholder right just a a vote bank right some place that
47:27
we're registering a in a quantifiable way our discontempt with the choices that we have with
47:34
the policy of unconditional support for genocide that this was the I think the most straightforward
47:40
argument so you want a vessel to quantify the Gaza vote yes absolutely the election has to
47:48
be a mandate or excuse me a a referendum on Gaza if we make the election a referendum on on Gaza
47:55
we win that that is the most important thing as far as discourse goes that Harris has to lose and
48:02
it has to be because of Gaza now what about this argument that uh you guys are doing this because
Leverage within Democrats
48:09
you want to build leverage within the Democratic party over the next four years so the argument
48:14
goes that the Democratic party Still Remains the natural home for Muslim voters yes we're
48:20
disenchanted over Gaza but inevitably by walking away we can build some sort of Leverage within the
48:27
and do you buy that argument I don't really I mean I wouldn't rule it out categorically but I I'm not
48:32
going to hold my breath and wait for it to uh to come to pass i' I've you know paid attention to the Democratic party enough to know I mean look at their behavior they are the most anti-democratic
48:43
party of all of the parties that currently exist they have um tried to subvert popular will and
48:50
the will of their base in every single way and at every single turn and at every single opportunity
48:57
for a long time when it comes to Bernie Sanders and how they torpedoed Bernie Sanders campaign
49:02
Debbie W and Schultz people remember that when it comes to um the current process of how when
49:08
Biden stepped down and then sort of making it a no contest making sure that it didn't go to an open uh candidacy at the um at the convention the Democratic party has so much spite for their
49:22
own base that they have demonstrated Psychopathic levels of uh of animosity and ranor to the very
49:31
people that they depend on to vote for them so I do not have any hopes that the Democratic party
49:37
is redeemable as such uh I do think that building power outside of the two- party structure is going
49:43
to be very very key I think that it is uh possible I do think that it is possible we have a history
49:50
in the United States of America of third parties coming out of nowhere and then becoming one of the main two parties right so true you know we don't have the wig party anymore right like these
50:00
these parties have there has been some change over the last 200 years so there's a precedent
50:06
there and we need to be able to exercise it it's time for the two-party system and especially the
50:12
Democratic party to be unseated and for a new political Horizon to be forged and it has to be
50:17
done outside of the party and if I'm wrong I'm happy to be wrong if it works J out and that's one of the things that you know even we talked to uh some of the HT guys in in in tuting right
50:27
in London and all these other different places I'm happy to be wrong if it works I'm not an ideologue I'm not somebody who's you know if the Democratic party wakes up on on November 6th as
50:37
was sort of M's um you know exaggeration to sort of you know uh strong in us if if the Democrats
50:44
wake up on November 6 and say you know what guys we've been wrong we've done everything wrong we need to really do some sol searching and we need to be more democratic we need be more responsive
50:53
to our base then maybe we can talk but I don't see that happening yeah absolutely um you and I were in a conversation on one of these WhatsApp groups where a good good brother mashah made a
Staying at home
51:04
a point about our stance on the election and I think to paraphrase he suggested that we're
51:10
giving oxygen to a corrupt system wouldn't it be better to quantify your votes by Muslims on mass
51:17
abstaining and if they abstained they stick it to the system and maybe just maybe if enough people
51:22
did that in wider Society then the system would collapse under the weight of his deleg legitimacy
51:28
I mean how do you how do you see such an argument I mean I see that argument as coming from leftist
51:34
influence and somebody who was an anarchist before Islam like this is a familiar argument to me but I do not buy it um I think it actually ironically takes lock at his word that there is
51:45
some sort of social contract between the rulers and the ruled that um if we all stayed home that
51:51
the government would just pack up and leave and disband itself on November 6 it's farfetched I
51:57
don't believe I think lock was was was fronting I I think lock was completely trying to speak him to being a system that did not yet exist that he was giving legitimacy to so uh to put
52:07
it very very simply participating in a system does not necessarily sustain it and abstaining
52:13
from a system does not necessarily bring it down that is the the most cinct way that we can put it
52:18
that there are different types of participation some participation in some systems is actually subversion and actually the participation in particular particular types of participation
52:27
in a system might actually ruin it okay um that's welln and certain types of abstention from systems
52:35
actually keep them going in fact uh have you ever heard of voter turnout numbers being broadcasted
52:42
loudly in the United States has anybody I mean uh voter turnout has been below 50% for a good number
52:47
of elections in the United States that hasn't done anything to Dent the legitimacy because the the system won't admit the legitimacy right in the first place right so even if
52:56
10% 5% 1% came out to vote you wouldn't hear about it in the news you would only see uh 50% voted
53:03
this way and 49% voted that way they would never even talk about it so the thing is that we need a
53:08
quantifiable and and legible legible political action and unfortunately staying home is not
53:15
a legible political action it will be erased and forgotten and you will have done nothing IM manom
US Exceptionalism
53:21
I would like to ask you about uh the US Empire now there is a concern from house Outsiders those on
53:28
the periphery of the Empire uh and uh we sort of come have come to the impression and maybe it's
53:34
an incorrect impression that many US Muslims have sort of swallowed the US exceptionalism
53:40
pill and uh believe that us power is generally a Force for good even if you know Gaza has been a
53:48
a blot on uh on its on its record but generally the world without the US would be a world World
53:56
which will be worse off um I mean where do you fit into that conversation about just us imperialism
54:03
and US power a very good question I think that uh US foreign policy is the most harmful thing
54:09
to the Umma and to the US now that's not to say the categorically that um there might not in the
54:15
future if you were to change US foreign policy and reduce the testimony that another Sinister
54:20
power might replace it that that is true however uh as things stand right now US foreign policy
54:26
is the biggest problem of the my in my estimation if you think about all the mor all the Imran KH
54:34
all of the erdogan all of the you know all of the leaders that the Muslim Community uh across the
54:39
world has attempted to put forth that if you take away the persistent aggressive meddling of the
54:48
United States foreign policy I think that things begin to change and things begin to open up in very interesting ways we'll never know essentially what these leaders would have been capable of
54:57
without us interference and US meddling and that's why I think that um it's very important and I
55:03
think one of the things that people have woken up to hopefully and What Muslim Americans have to do a better job of going forth after the election is to understand that one of our most important roles
55:15
here in the United States is to change the policy of this country of the United States that um there
55:21
is a duty I think that we and a unique Duty even an exceptional Duty to reduce the harm that the
55:28
United States does and exactly what you you said there's a Temptation you know us US military power
55:34
is like the Ring of L of the Rings you think that you can put it on and it won't affect you you think that you can use it for Pakistan you think that you can use it for Syria you think that
55:43
you can use it for whatever your you know back home quote unquote is and it will just be benign
55:49
that's not true that's not true that um it's not the as we say the juice is not worth the squeeze
55:56
that even if you might get a very very minuscule or targeted or specific benefit out of it that the
56:04
harms of having unleashed the system increase the reach of these tentacles you know increase
56:11
the the reach of the military bases and military activity and all these sorts of dependencies that the United States then leverages in ways that meet its interests uh it's not worth it it's
56:22
not worth it and so we really do need to this is part of the I think if we were to articulate a Muslim American political platform which needs to be done and it can't simply look I've been a
56:31
little bit disappointed in previous attempts at doing this because most of it just looks like the left it looks like the left when it comes to issues of immigration and homelessness and
56:39
Universal healthare these are all left issues right I think we we need a more bipartisan or
56:44
even a nonpartisan Muslim American political platform and non-interventionism uh is an
56:50
important part of that I think changing the for foreign policy of the US to um to Esta Lish to
56:57
establish bounds and conditions for its military aid to reduce its footprint to decommission its
57:04
bases to bring US troops back onto US soil and to stop them from being all over the world as
57:10
basically the world's policeman I think that that is an extremely important aspect of our of
Liberal ideology
57:16
what we should be going for now of course um us um imperialism us militarism uh is founded on uh some
57:24
ideological principles so we had a conversation about this previously in an interview but these
57:29
principles we could summarize being quite liberal Li principles of liberalism um how much should
57:36
your project to expose Western imperialism uh Express um a a denunciation or a criticism of
57:45
liberalism as an ideology I mean in many ways uh there are movements in America uh beyond the
57:51
Muslim Community that have uh that have had this conversation already yes of course the traditional
57:56
left have talked a lot about uh and provided criticisms of liberalism but of course even
58:01
on the right we're now seeing uh the emergence of a post- liberalism sort of a liberalism a a
58:08
a a US pre Constitution a us pre-independence uh in in terms of a type of United States that
58:17
is not founded on on these liberal principles and how much should we engage with those ideological
58:23
conversations moving forward excellent um we have to recognize our distinctiveness from
58:29
those movements that we are not those movements and even if we can appreciate elements of their diagnosis just like I can appreciate markx and his diagnosis of capitalism um we can disagree vly
58:40
with their prescriptions about what should be done and there's a register in which you can speak to
58:47
people where you're attempting to meet them where they're at and speak to them in a language that is legible that is important so if we're going to be yes like if you I mean I critique liberalism every
58:56
day so if I'm speaking to people that are part of the post liberal right Etc then that's going to be an important discursive part of that however um that doesn't mean that we are uh in agreement on
59:09
many many things in fact if you go back to the sort of nostalgic times that many of the post-
59:14
liberal right sort of fantasize about that was a time of genocide that was a time of genocide on American soil that was a time of slave trade that was a time of horrible racism that these things
59:24
are stains on The History of the United States of America some people would even say founding
59:30
stains like foundational essential stains that cannot be overcome that's a debate whether it can be overcome or not I think that this is the role of daa I think that this is what gets us into the
59:39
conversation of what are we doing in the United States as Muslims now there's certain people who have sort of quote unquote come or arrived from from elsewhere um though technically everybody
59:50
arrives from elsewhere in the United States other than the the natives um but there's people such
59:56
as myself who you know my family's been in the United States for 100 plus years that um there's
1:00:02
nowhere else to go to so what are we doing this is rat this is Da this is the area where we should
1:00:08
be providing um The Message of Islam that this is where we actually put Islam up in the conversation
1:00:16
with these other ideological movements that are trying to make sense of they are trying to forge Way Forward that we can show people that Islam actually has a lot to offer American society
1:00:26
Islam actually has a lot of correctives that could um sort of Remedy the excesses of liberalism and
1:00:34
it's false universalisms and and other things so that we don't keep swinging back and forth wildly oscillating between historical extremes that we need to take seriously the ideological
1:00:44
project of Islam in America and proclaiming it and making it accessible to people and clarifying what
1:00:50
it is for people and then we can be a partner on equal terms if we if we make sort of this
1:00:56
we take uh as legitimate and some people have critiqued it but if we we take the idea that there's a sort of Public Square um where people can exchange ideas and and hopefully uh the best
1:01:07
ideas win then we need to be there and we need to be there as fully Muslims as fully dedicated to Islam as people who believe that Islam is the best way for all humanity and that doesn't mean
1:01:16
that we're going to force people obviously it's against our religion to force people to believe in it but we have a duty to clarify and we have a duty to put forth and we have a duty to offer off
1:01:26
solutions from our tradition that could help uh the local situation where each and every one of
1:01:31
us live T it's been a pleasure as always ja very much for your time and may Allah accept from you
1:01:39
and from all the Muslims who are fighting for for Palestine and for Gaza mean me thank you so
1:01:45
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1:01:51
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