Ep.76 - Islamic Manhood, Chivalry and Red Pill with Imam Dawud Walid
Never in human history has the role and position of men and women been subject to so much dispute. The advent of liberalism has ushered in an era of free thought and individualism that has removed previously accepted notions of roles and obligations. Liberal feminism has explicitly sought to forward a hollow version of equality that has on the whole, harmed women and men. And sadly, the backlash has been a crude assertion of masculinity that loathes women and removes any of their rights. Social media is awash with a morass of failed gender relations and gender conflicts, to which many young Muslims, however well-intentioned, contribute.
Imam Dawud Walid has recently published a serious contribution to the subject of manhood. He argues that the rich classical scholarly works detailing how to bring up young men have been lost. This sacred idea of chivalry may look out of place in modernity, but it produced well-balanced young men that combine courage with humility, strength with forgiveness and public duty with prayer. Imam Dawud Walid believes Islamic masculinity is not naturally acquired but has to come from revelation and reinforced by models of manhood within families and communities. He has recently authored a brilliant book titled, Futuwwah: and Raising Males into Sacred Manhood, a timely contribution to the topic. I have included a copy of the contents page on our Thinking Muslim telegram group.
You can follow Imam Dawud Walid's Telegram group here https://t.me/dawudwalid
Thanks to the team: Riaz Hassan, Musab Muhammad, Reem Walid, Adeel Alam, Ahaz Atif and Umar Abdul Salam.
You can donate to the show here: https://www.thinkingmuslim.com/contribute
Follow us on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/jalalayn and https://twitter.com/thinking_muslim
Join our Telegram group here: https://t.me/thinkingmuslim
-
This is a largely accurate clean verbatim transcript. Please refer to the original programme where incomplete or unclear.
Dawud Walid: It could come off as being emasculating If we only talk about him as you know, he did the shopping, he helped sweep up the house, which he did do that. He did go to the market and he did do the shopping. He did help clean up in the house. That's no doubt about it. He also went to Badr and Uhud and carried the sword.
Muhammad Jalal: Never in human history has the role and position of men and women been subject to so much dispute. The advent of liberalism has ushered in an era of free thought and individualism that has removed previously accepted notions of roles and obligations. Liberal feminism has explicitly sought to forward a hollow version of equality that has on the whole harmed women and men.
And sadly, the backlash to modernity has been a crude assertion of masculinity that loathes women and removes any of their rights. Social media is awash with a morass of failed gender relations and gender conflicts, to which many young Muslims, however well intentioned contribute. Imam Dawud Walid has recently published a serious contribution to the subject of manhood.
He argues that the rich classical scholarly works detailing how to bring up young men has been lost. This sacred idea of chivalry may look out of place in modernity, but it produced well-balanced young men that combined courage with humility, strength with forgiveness and public duty with prayer. Imam Dawud Walid believes Islamic masculinity is not naturally acquired, but has to come from revelation and reinforced by models of manhood within families and communities.
He has recently offered a brilliant book titled Futuwwah and raising males into sacred manhood, a timely contribution to the topic. I have included a copy of the contents page on our thinking Muslim telegram group. A link in the show notes can be found below this podcast.
Imam Dawud Walid, Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah and welcome back to the Thinking Muslim podcast.
Dawud Walid: Wa alaikumassalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, it's my pleasure to be back on here with you.
Muhammad Jalal: And it's great to have you with us. Now Imam Dawud before we get into the details of your book, I want to explore why there is a need to write a serious book, and this is a serious book on what you call spiritual manhood is, is what we have in classical Islam, in Islamic instruction, not enough to define what it means to be a good man in Islam.
Dawud Walid: So in regards to the serious nature of this book Futuwwah and raising males in the sacred manhood it is predominantly centering the Islamic narrative. And within this, there is a history or continuum of how manhood has been transmitted in Islamic civilization, but how it may be demonstrate itself slightly differently, depending on the space and time in which Muslims live.
But definitely without a doubt, we look back at the example of humanity as Prophet Muhammad ﷺ Allah عزوجل says in the Qur'an [Ayah]
that most certainly you have been given a beautiful praiseworthy model, the messenger of God. And this is for whoever hopes in God in the last day, whoever makes remembrance of God often, right? So this is our model but more specifically the model for humanity, the model for humankind was placed in the body of a man.
So there are certain aspects of what we would call Rujula or we would say sacred manhood that yes can be exhibited by both genders, but there are certain things very specific about the life of the Prophet ﷺ that it's Kamaal or its perfection is within the male. That grows up to be a man, for instance no matter how much a woman wants to emulate certain roles, a woman will never know how it is to be a husband.
She cannot be a husband, she cannot be a father. Even if she tries to play the role of father, she cannot be a father. So the perfection of this manhood in to its fullest sense is in the the human form, the male form of the Prophet ﷺ. In regards to the the backdrop in saying that and you mentioned Islam is enough.
Yes, I do believe that Islam is sufficient in that [Arabic phrase] Islam, is as Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, “that surely the way of life with God is al Islam.” Definitely. But we've always had a tradition and this also relates to futuwwah, sacred chivalry and rujula, sacred manhood in which this topic like other topics have been elucidated upon by teachers as well as scholars that have written about this topic and have sought to embody this topic.
So really what I have embarked on is really elucidating virtues that are written in our classical books on sacred manhood on Islamic chivalry and then the the forward by Moulana Asim Ayub, who's actually British who's in High Wycombe. And then the introduction that I wrote is talking about some of the contemporary social issues, as well as political issues that we believe have negatively affected manhood as we see it in the 21st century.
And in particular, as we see the demonstration of Muslim manhood in Britain, Canada, and the United States of America in particular.
Muhammad Jalal: It's interesting that you say that your book is an elucidation of Islamic scholarship through the centuries and what they have to say about sacred manhood.
I've, you know, grew up in a traditional Islamic household and I attended madrasa from an early age. And we studied Qur'an and Hadith and we studied the various disciplines of Islam. But the discussion about the specific ahkam related to sacred manhood to Islamic chivalry was never discussed.
And I grew up thinking about maybe in Islamic history, there's never really been a discussion about that because it's just taken, it's a given that men will be men. It's almost a biological fact that men will acquire certain traits or have certain traits that women do not have. And. Why is there a need to have a deep discussion about it?
Like, there is a need to have a discussion about Salah or fasting or other disciplines, because these are these are not natural fitri ideas. These need to be how to worship Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala needs to be talked to us. Have I misunderstood something quite profound in Islamic scholarship?
Dawud Walid: Well, I wouldn't say that you've misunderstood.
I would say perhaps that there is certain things that perhaps were not introduced to you at a younger age and that the manhood that you saw was an embodiment, but perhaps the discourse wasn't framed that way. So it's not to say that what you got was deficient, it is to say that perhaps it was just discussed in a particular way without clearly labeling it as such.
And that perhaps you saw the embodiment of this manhood, but from the issue of the disciplines we're talking about rujula, futuwwah, muruwa, we have these terms that there, we can say literally that there are different aspects to this that need to be discussed and our scholars have discussed meta physically and physically, and we know that the prophet Muhammad ﷺ sent a well authenticated hadith, اِنَّ لكلِّ شئٍ حقيقة. Therefore everything that's created, there is a deeper truth. There's a deeper reality. So we as Muslims who believe in spirituality and also who believe in the unseen, like we believe that there are that behind all physical manifestations are metaphysical realities, right?
So there is something that is not just something physical, but metaphysical. And hence this is pointed to in the Qur'an that masculinity and manhood is a divine construct. It's not a manmade construct when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says [Ayah] O humankind, we created you from a male and we made create you a male and female, right? So there's a law. Who's the one who constructed this? s not just people who constructed this. And there are specific balance in which females are given certain virtues and certain, we can say exceptions and certain responsibilities that simply males don't have and vice versa. There are certain virtues that men are given over women and with that comes certain responsibilities. So it is the inward self that is complimenting the outward self in these societal roles.
Doesn't mean that one is intrinsically better than the other, but they're different. As Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, and this is in relationship to the birth of sayyidatuna Maryam (as) [Ayah], the male is not like the female, and this is not just outwardly, this is something that's inward as well.
So we understand this from a metaphysical perspective, and there's also these rulings that relate to the Sharia, the sacred law. And there are social rules that are attached to this. [Ayah] right? That males are the guardians and protectors of women and then the same ayah, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says of women, and women are the protectors of the guardians of that, which is not apparent.
So they're even like different societal roles. And and, and men have certain responsibilities under sacred manhood that simply women do not have those same frontline responsibilities. And there are many historical examples about this, not just in the time of the sahaba but we go onto the other generations of how this was always understood within Muslim communities and Muslim societies.
And perhaps things have gotten a little confused now, but with social liberalism, and now post-modernism where traditional gender roles are being deconstructed to the point that even some people say that gender, is not only a manmade construct, some people would even say gender doesn't even exist
in postmodernism. But no, this is clear in our tradition of the Quran and the ahadith our, scholars of spirituality, as well as our scholars of fiqh talked about these differentiations and men not imitating women, women not imitating men. And this is something that's very rich in the in our Islamic discourse.
Muhammad Jalal: What comes through from the discussion, from your response, as well as looking at your book, your argument is that manhood is not naturally acquired. It's taught we need to access the revelation in understanding what it means to be a man and not just leave it up to our base instincts. But I'm just looking back at the books of seerah, and again, I'm not well read as you are Imam and, you know, I've read some books of seerah and when, for example, Omar ibn Khattab (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra) or Ali(ra), when they became Muslim, especially those like Omar and Abu Bakr who became Muslim when they were beyond their teenage years, did the Prophet ﷺ teach them or reassess their understanding of masculinity and teach them a newer version or an Islamic version of masculinity. Like, was that part of the prophetic program?
Dawud Walid: Yeah, most definitely that the prophet saw long Ali ally. He wanted them introduced to them some new aspects of what it meant to be a real man at the same time, he affirmed certain traits and qualities that were positive.
So in Jahili society of the Arabs, and also Jahiliyya is known as the day of ignorance or the era of ignorance. Arabs did have a concept of manhood and chivalry. And all of it was not Islamically non-compliant. So for instance Quraysh took 'karrama', took pride for instance, in hosting people of honoring guests, of being generous, right.
These are qualities and traits of sacred manhood. Now some of these things had to be tempered, so, we know very famously that some of the companions, for instance, prior to Islam buried the female babies alive, and we mentioned Abu Bakr, Omar, and one of them actually had done this.
So the centering the value of the wife, of the woman in that, in this 'qawwamun' means 'hafidhun', of being the guardians and protectors of women, that the life of the female is to be not only preserved, but that one should be willing to give their life, to protect their women folk. This is something that had to be recalibrated, right?
Even to the point of the infant child who was the most vulnerable, which is the female. For instance, we know that Omar was known to be a very strong man, very strong man. A lot of 'himma' right. Sometimes this turned into being overly stern. So on several occasions we have in Seerah in the books of ahadith the Prophet ﷺ had to inform him and tell him that this strength that he was exhibiting, that if it was displayed in a overly vigorous way, it would become blameworthy, thus, it was not what true manliness constitutes to the extent that Omar (ra) that when he came into being Khalifa and actually he's the first one who got the title 'ameerul mu'mineen', the commander of the faithful, he said,
[Arabic dua] Oh Allah, surely I'm too stern. I'm too tough. So soften me up a bit, make me a little more gentle, right? Because the goal of sacred manhood is the 'wasat' right? It's the heart, the middle, 'wasatiyya'. So this is what the Prophetﷺ taught through speech. And through example to the 'sheikheen' like Abu Bakr, Omar may Allah be pleased with them both.
That anything too far to the right or anything too far to the left. Both of these go outside of sacred manhood or what it means to be a man in Islam. So, you know, being overly soft and feminine and not taking responsibility, that's not really being a man, at the same time, being a brute, being 'mutashaddid', being overly harsh and including with the, with the children, and the girls or the women folk, that's not really being masculine either, a true sacred manhood. And perhaps we can get to that later on because I have some strong feelings about the red pill movement as a response to radical feminism, because I don't view some of what red pill is talking about is being Islamically compliant under what we call 'arrujula al islamiyya', the Islamic sacred manhood. I think that some of it goes outside the bounds and you know, or any of these other red pill personalities. They're not our 'shuyookh'.
Muhammad Jalal: Well, exactly. So I wanted to raise for context within which you write this book.
I think it's a book that's much needed today for many young Muslims. And young Muslim men and even young Muslim females need to appreciate and understand the role Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has given to men so that they can appreciate their role in the role of men in society.
But we can't, it'll be remiss of me not to talk about people like Jordan Peterson. And as you said, Andrew Tate who talk about a crisis in masculinity. And I suppose in a sense your understanding of the problem would be not too dissimilar to them. They see men have been emasculated, feminism liberal feminism has created an atmosphere where men cannot be men anymore. And Jordan Peterson is, you know, his prescription is for men to return back to, I suppose, some base instincts, you know, where they do use their muscle and where they do show their strength when it comes to societal relations. Is there a problem with their prescriptions?
Can we pinpoint what is wrong with, I suppose, the broader red pill movement when it comes to defining the man.
Dawud Walid: Well, what I would say, number one, and this is so on the one hand, we believe in the statement of the Prophetﷺ [hadith in Arabic] right? That wisdom is a lost property believer. So it's not to say that some of the things that they've said, especially the former may or perhaps could be accurate in terms of its analysis. I agree with some of it myself, right? I think it's the first basis of starting out is the epistemology that's different.
Like what actually constitutes truth, right? What are the actual definitions? So perhaps these individuals definition of what manhood is different from the Islamic definition and paradigm of what manhood is. So most of their discourse relates to what we would say is [Arabic phrase]. It is the materialistic understanding of manhood that is physical, that then takes its out in certain societal roles.
So we ourselves would say that manhood in and of itself starts with certain intrinsic qualities and virtues that manifests right. And this would start off, number one with proper sincerity and belief in our creator who's above. And we don't ascribe a location a 'makaan' to Allah subhananahu wa ta'ala, who is sublime and who is over us and who is our authority, right?
And then our inward states and our social dispositions and actions are based upon this belief. This is one thing that's different. And the issue of what they say about reasserting what they would say, manly instincts, such as being physically fit to be able to defend oneself, we would say that's true but we would also say that's not the measure and the Prophet himselfﷺ
said that the man or the real man is not the one who's strong at wrestling or the strong right? The one who is 'qawiyy', he's not the one that's strong at wrestling. It's the one who is strong and able to control their anger. So this is talking about an inward discipline that is based upon a type of spiritual embodiment, that we're talking about, that would talk about manhood. Some of these people in red pill movement, they also have this false sense of machismo. Like you mentioned, Andrew Tate, he drops the F bomb and curses all the time and this is a way of showing, supposedly being macho or being tough. Well, this is not our example.
This is not manly. In fact, this is actually sinful. And to use this language pertaining to women or to intimidate women, we would in fact, say that not only is this sinful, but is unmanly, it should never be the position of a man if a man has to be the protector of women, to try to intimidate women, to put them in their place through language or even a type of intimidating bodily postures.
It's just one example besides also some of them talking about zina. So they say that a woman loses her worth when she has sex, but then a guy can go and have sex with whoever he wants or like this whole thing about conquering women. There's a number of these things that like are not Islamically compliant.
They're really based in viewing the man or manhood as a type of superior animal species over women. So it's debasing the 'maqam' of the 'rajul' or 'ar rajul haqeeqi', the real man. They're misdefining it and bringing down the status of what a real man is supposed to be according to the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, being the model of what we should strive for in attaining manhood,
Muhammad Jalal: I've come across a number of young men who are influenced by Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson, and they have a deep suspicion towards Imams who emphasize in this from the Sunnah aspects of the prophetic tradition, which accord with modern sensitivities. So for example, we hear on many occasions that the Prophet ﷺ used to help out in the home. And that certainly was the case. But that the emphasis is such that the suspicion is that modern Imams are trying to emasculate young men and make them touchy and feely make them feel like, or look like men in wider society who aren't regarded as as those who have a particular role in society, but who are treated as equals in inverted commas to women and and do not have those types of virtues that we see in people like Omar ibn Khattab (ra)
How do you address that potential criticism?
Dawud Walid: Well, you know, perhaps some of that criticism is valid if those Imams are not giving a balanced full picture of the Prophet ﷺ. So there may be some Imams that only talk about what we would say are the 'jamaali' characteristics of Al Habibal Mustafa ﷺ but don't talk about the 'jalaali' characteristics.
So this impact we have to present the Prophet in a balanced way and discuss his Seerah in the light of circumstances. So, it could come off as being emasculating if we only talk about him as he did the shopping, he helped sweep up the house, which he did do that. He did go to the market and he did do the shopping.
He did help clean up in the house. There's no doubt about it. He also went to Badr and Uhud and carried the sword. Also when Omar ibn Khattab (ra) came into the home of 'Arqam', it's called Darul Arqam, when he came into the home and Omar came to the door, the Prophet body slammed Omar. Like what business do you have here, Omar.
And then sayyiduna Omar accepted Islam. They, he and the Sahaba wrestled as matter of fact Nisar Shaikh who's in the UK, wrote a book translating the hadith that As-Suyuti compiled on prophetic grappling. The prophet wrestled. He did these things that are very masculine.
So, the prophet had more than one wife and he took care of his, he took care of those wives. So if the Imams or du'at are only talking about issues of spiritual beauty, but not of these more, what we could say imminent majestic traits, beauty and majesty, then I could see how some of these young people may come to that conclusion. And I have tried to walk this balance, but I think that some of our shuyookh have been overly apologetic. And when they see people being overly apologetic about certain things have been considered to be scandalous that have not been illegal nor Haram, or being overly apologetic to the left or to liberals, then this does make young people rightfully suspicious of some of our of Imams or if they see certain Imams and scholars who could just talk about tusk, but then they won't criticize tyrants or dictators, they may even praise a dictator country.
So there are some legitimate grievances that then don't express themselves in legitimate means amongst some of our youth. So I tend to think that our youth and our young men are sincere. And part of this, just like my book towards sacred activism, I've I wrote this book believing that many of the activists, I believe went too far to the left, were sincere.
Just may be sincerely wrong and they need some help. And likewise, I think some of our brothers maybe have gone a little too far to the right and they're sincere. And we have to be part of the solution and calling people back to 'wasatiyya' of the Prophetﷺ. And this effort is an attempt to try to call the young brothers back towards the 'wasatiyya', towards the middle ground of the Prophetic Sunnah.
Muhammad Jalal: Now let's get into the details. You use the term Futuwwah and you present it, I suppose, as an overriding idea of Islamic masculinity. Can you explain to my listeners precisely what the term means and how it applies to the lives of young men?
Dawud Walid: Okay. So Al Futuwwah is loosely translated as sacred chivalry and it is a code of conduct that is based upon sacred virtues.
And as I mentioned before, the term of Futuwwah is something in the concept existed prior to the revealing of the Quran. The term Futuwwah was a term that was used by the righteous salaf and we normally talk about these people as being the first three generations of Muslims. This term was actually used. The word
fata is a singular person who is striving to exhibit al futuwwah and al fityan is a group of the males who are growing into their futuwwah. So this term al fata puts us in the mindset of someone who is coming out of adolescence into a greater stage of responsibility in which they then are recognized within the society of not just being a boy.
And this Fata normally comes into the age of one that's around 14 or 15 years old when they become 'mukhallaf' or responsible, according to the sacred law. And 15 is a very important age. And we look at Abdullah ibn Omar, he was given permission to go out on gua at the age of 15 years old by the prophet.
We know that Z who's a teenager, the prophet arranged his marriage placed as a teenager and then appointed him to be his last commander as a teenager. But these young males went through a certain type of tarea and they had certain type of knowledge. And this was like their right of passage to coming through to be recognized as a man within the society.
So in this broad framework of alpha, there are certain da Ja we can use or levels right in the raising up, starting with certain virtues. That slowly over time that the young male is raised up more and more in which there is a lifelong journey to try to culminate this and it's peak, which we would say is altruism, cuz altruism is part of the OA, right?
It is to prefer others over oneself, right? But this doesn't start off at the very young age. There's a type of upbringing that has to be undergone for the young man to become or the young male to be recognized as a man. And this is a process of spiritual maturation. Along with physical maturation.
Muhammad Jalal: So could you imagine in the past young Muslim men would go through as part of their program of tarbiyah many of these qualities that you elucidate in your book, these will be taught to young men in an age appropriate way when they get to the stage where a, the acquisition of these qualities become relevant to them.
Would there have been a program where young, a finishing school for young men where they would develop these qualities as part of that process of maturity?
Dawud Walid: Yeah. So al futuwwah as an institution was really organized during the time of the Abbasieen and under one of its salateen, he's is known as Al-Nasir il-Din Allah and this is one of the beautiful things that he did and I'm not overly praising him, a lot of these sultans were a mixed bag. This same sultan put Ibn al Jawzi , he put him in jail and a number of these Abbasids, I mean, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was put in jail by an Abbasid. Actually more than one Abbasid put Imam Ahmad in prison.
But one of the things that he did right before the Muslims were then able to recapture Al Quds is he established the Futuwwah guilds. And we can say basically there's five principles of this Futuwwah that became systematized. Now of course, the upbringing starts in the home, in the first place that the young male is supposed to for the tarbiyyah, the first place is supposed to be in the home.
And the first thing that has learned through embodiment, but also words is adab. Adab comes before ilm right? So even the Prophets ﷺ, he was taught his adab directly by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala but even within this, we know that he was 'yateem', he was an orphan, but he still had positive male role models in his life.
His father died before he was born and Abdul Muttalib helped to take care of him. Abdul Muttalib passed away, then he was in the home of Abu Talib. So he had people who were known that had some virtue who were male role models, even though they weren't on Islam that showed them some things of what we would call 'karram' like this thing about honor a code of honor generosity, because futuwwah in effect is like a type of a code of honor, kind of like how the knights of the round table and these things, they copied these things from Muslims, right?
As far as this this order and this should result, one is the tarbiyah, and this teaches adab the second is ilm right? So we have at the ages of when a boy is little and then like to the age of seven on the hijri calendar, you can't really teach them anything deep about aqidah or anything like that.
They are not going to understand too much about that. Like The technicalities of 'nubuwa' or the 'qadr' of the 'khayr' and the 'shar' , they can't intellectually understand that, but they can learn adab at this age, even though they run around a more free after that age of seven years old, you then begin to introduce them to something that is more intellectual, because their cognition, they're more cogent to be able to understand things intellectually at this age.
Then the third piece of it is this issue of 'Al-Khidmah' service or Al Khidmatu li jaliah it's community service, right? So one it's supposed to serve their their parents, one's supposed to serve their teachers as well. And this is an organized thing, which okay, the education comes from outside the household and it is solidified and it is what we could say,
it's built upon with organized teaching and when there's spiritual mentor, spiritual guides teachers, in an organized way. And this community service is very important because there's adab in service, but also for the Fata or for the young man to not just be self-centered or selfish, but to look past himself to do something for his community and for humankind.
And we have the saying the famous saying [Arabic saying], leader of the people is their servant leadership. The fourth aspect is the physical aspect because young men need to be strong, but they also need to learn discipline in this strength. So hence the prophetic grappling and the martial arts, the archery, equestrianism, these are, I don't like using the term similar sports, but these are the things, the Prophet ﷺ encouraged encouraged the sahaba to teach their boys. So in this, there's a way of getting out physical activity, strengthening the human, or strengthening their bodies, but also teaching discipline and also precision, it takes precision and discipline for archery.
To learn martial arts, to be able to handle a horse properly. There are many lessons that can be learned from this. Then the fifth thing that Al-Nasir il-Din Allah systematized was the artisan guilds within the futuwwah so that the young men learn how to do something with their hands. And this has two practical aspects.
One, they learn a trade or skill to benefit the Ummah, because at this time the Ummah, they were fighting the crusaders. And then, you know, Salahuddin Ayyubi was around the same time too. Someone has to know how to make the horseshoe for the horses. Someone has to know about the, how to make the swords. There's different things that need to people need to eat.
You know, someone needs to know how to do these things, so these these artists and guilds were created. To help the Ummah, but also to give these young men a skilled trade. So they could be able to have a job, to be able to take on a wife, to take care of themselves and to be able to take on a wife, you need to be able to know how to do something, right?
So they were literate at the same time, they knew they had what was called industrial education because these fityan were taught how to read, taught how to write. They were being taught in the sacred sciences and how to do math and things like this. But they also were taught to do something with their hands.
So these are the five aspects that Al-Nasir il-Din Allah may Allah forgive him of his sin instituted during his government. And so really this is the type of roadmap that then the Seljuks, they implemented this. Carried this on. We saw this in Resurrection Ertugrul. We see that taste of this, I have the Ertugrul Gazi hat on the cover of my futuwwah book. And the Ottomans used this, you know, in the Janis series and all these different, you know, so the futuwwah was done by the Salatin, by the rulers, you know, but the, it was something that was more organic during the time of the prophet ﷺ.
And then it became systematized after the salaf in the time of the khalaf, where they began to, around the era of Sheikh Abdul Qādir Gīlānī and Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, Imam Al Jawzi and their lifetime. Then we get to see the systematizing. And then, you know, in the Madarij as-Salikeen, Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya, he has a chapter about futuwwah and this book, you know, it was written about, but also it was systematized.
Muhammad Jalal: So let's go into the details. Let's talk about some of these qualities in a little bit more depth. Let me pick one particular chapter. You've got as your fourth chapter, you talk about vigilant care. What does that mean? And how is that important for a young man?
Dawud Walid: Okay. So vigilant care. Sometimes it's called protective jealousy.
I used the term vigilant care because normally jealousy in the English language has a negative connotation attached to it. So I translate the word of 'ghayra' where some people say 'gheerah' as vigilant care. This is what we're talking about. Number one, the proper ghayrah, like all of these virtues is something that needs to be seen by our young males.
In other words, just teaching something from a book didactically without having a role model to actually live and exhibit it properly is, will be wanting, there'll be something deficient about this. So much of the futuwwah that we're talking about in the training relates to teachers and guides who are walking the young males through certain steps.
But they are exhibiting this and then they're putting directly towards certain things that are done as, this is what this is, and they're teaching it from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. So we talk about this issue of the 'wasat', right again, and I reference this term that's used, well, first of all, the Qur'an uses this term in the sense, well that thus we have made you the middle grounded community and then Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says and that we would be 'shuhada' or witnesses over the people and the messenger is a witness over us.
So he is the model of this 'wasatiyya'. And then we have the hadith that the best of the matters are in the 'wasat', they're in the middle. So when we look at this issue of ghayrah, As other virtues, like, At Tusi or or Imam Al Ghazali talks about 'Mizan al amal' in his book on Islamic ethics that anything too far to the right or too far to the left again is not virtuous.
So we look at ghayrah as a virtuous trait that the Prophetﷺ said was a good virtue and that some of the scholars of futuwwah like [unclear] Hanbali said that a one, a person is not a real man who doesn't have ghayrah. So this protective jealousy starts with having ghayrah for Islam, having ghayrah for the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. But how this is displayed is very important.
So I'll give you an example with this before we go into the women folk. So for instance something that's too far to the left and what, in my view, this is my view, this is 'dhanni', based upon what I understand, they say, oh, we live in the west, we live in a free society, we believe in freedom of speech, so then I'm gonna say, I protect this man's freedom of speech to, to burn the court and insult the Prophetﷺ. We don't believe in absolute free speech as someone insults Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's, book, who insults our Prophetsﷺ. We should be willing to defend the honor in the best way in a way that has the best adab and also conforms to that, which adheres to the custom of our society.
That's something that's not like felonious is my point that I'm getting to at the same time in having this ghayrah for the Quran and Islam, they say, oh, well, I have, they insulted my deen, so then therefore I'm gonna go even beyond what the Prophet ﷺ did when people insulted him.
And then something like Charlie Hebdo happens. These are extremes. Neither one of these is proper ghayrah. So I was want to give like some, like, like a contemporary example, there's also ghayrah for the women folk. And we talked about this issue of qawwamah, qawwamoon, right? So someone who doesn't have ghayrah and the Hadith talks about it, this guy is called dayooth, is actually someone who's a cursed he's 'mal'un'. A dayooth is the one who is emasculated.
Who has no vigilant care for his woman to the point that he doesn't even care if his woman consorts with other men, another man can come and disrespect his woman, looks her up and down, says anything, And he can't even defend the honor of his own woman. This is a dayooth. This is a punk.
I just use the word. It's a punk. Then you have on the other side, in the name of ghayrah, a man who wants to treat his woman like his property, or like a slave that in the name of trying to protect her, won't even let her go to even visit her own family or her own parents that would stop her from even going to get knowledge or to go 'majalis al dhikr', gatherings of remembrance of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, to go to the masjid because his vigilant care is going to the point that he is violating the Islamic rights of his wife, right?
That's not a ghayrah either. That's someone who's being a brute. So the extreme to the left is the dayooth. This is the punk, the extreme to the right is a guy who's acting like Firaoun, in the name of ghayrah.
Muhammad Jalal: Chapter five, you talk about humility. What is humility for a Muslim man? And how important is it in developing a concept of Islamic masculinity?
Dawud Walid: So 'at-tuwadhu' is a praiseworthy trait. It is a Prophetic trait, the Prophet Muhammadﷺ was the most humble of people. He told us, the sahaba said, none of you should say that I'm better than Younus Ibn Mata, even though he was the Imam of all prophets and messengers, he had a higher rank than all of them. He excelled all of them on the night journey and leading them in Salah he knew his rank yet he said, none of you should say, I'm better than Younus alayhi salam..
This is of his humility, right? Why humility is so important because the 'maqabil' or the opposite is actually an attribute of Iblees, right? Because the opposite of humility is arrogance and it's 'kibr' which is inside the heart. And then it is what is called 'takabr', 'istikbar' when it displays itself outwardly.
So if we look at humility as being a virtue, it is the polar opposite of a satanic trait. So a man cannot be spiritually healthy if he doesn't have some sort of humility. And this humility of course starts with humility in front of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala right? Then this humility is also with one first authorities in their lives, which is their parents.
It's having humility with their teachers. And there are ways, and we write about this in the book, but there are ways and spiritual remedies for arrogance or proactive ways in cultivating humility and Al Khidmah that we mentioned earlier, or the service to others is a way of inculcating this humility.
So for instance, that one doesn't think that they're better than other people, instead of thinking that those people should serve them, then you should go and serve those people. But not in a patronizing way or think that they owe you anything. And this is one of the things that we're taught, even in regards to the issue of racism, right?
Because the first spiritual disease undergirding racism is khibr, is arrogance. So you go to the people, you think you're better than them, you go to where they're at and you sit on their level and you actually serve them. And this helps reversing the statement of Iblees when Iblees said I am better than him. Speaking of Adam, then this reverses it, the inside one, they should say he or she, even though they don't have maybe the wealth that I come from, even if they didn't study in this dresser, even if they have from a different culture, most likely, because we can't see, we should have husn al dhan, an opinion that this person has something that's better than me inside because I know my sin and this is the way that we express it and try to teach our young people to teach them humility.
And this is a very important trait that we need in this time. And especially when we have people who like to brag and boast on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok, everyone wants to brag and boast about what they have and how great they are. No that's not really that's not really in the wasat, that's not part of the rujula of Rasulillahﷺ.
Muhammad Jalal: Chapter 12, you talk about courage and the need for young men to acquire courage in today's modern world, where many young men are taught to not be courageous to to rely on the state, to rely on the law not to intervene when they see problems and challenges, but to live their own individualistic lives.
I can see how courage is a really important trait for young men to acquire. But what is courage in Islamic terms and again, using your middle path concept or idea where can courage sometimes lead to disaster?
Dawud Walid: Okay. So we know that Jabir Ibn Abdullah (ra) said that the most courageous of men was the Prophetﷺ.
He's the baseline of the Khulafa and Sheik with the great west African scholar Sheik Omar Tal, great Maliki scholar of West Africa, he said that this was a 'hasla' of AliIbn Abu Talib, may Allah be pleased with him that he inherited this 'hasla', this virtue from the Prophet. So Ali, so remember Ali talks about this issue of 'Al-Shaja'a' or courage that it is the wasat, or it is the virtue and in extreme to the left is cowardice or Al Jubn in Arabic. This is a spiritual disease, the Prophet ﷺ in an authentic Hadith, he prayed for refuge from Jubn, from .Cowardice to the right, the extreme is recklessness. So being reckless, being almost fatalistic, that's not courage. That's an extreme to the right to the left is being a coward.
So when we look at this 'hasla' from Ali Ibn Abu Talib, we can see this as him having courage as a young man, for instance, when the prophetﷺ did the open call to Islam and he invited Quraysh, we know there was a meal that when people were invited to an Abu Jahl, the enemy of God tried to sabotage the first one.
There was another gathering with the meal. He called them to Islam, no one accepted that message to follow the Prophet, except for Ali Ibn Abu Talib, who was young at the time who stood up and accepted with courage over his elders, his father didn't even accept, you know, on that day, his uncles didn't accept that day.
I mean, Hamza didn't accept that day as great as Hamza was. And these other people that were there, his elders didn't accept. That was courage, courage to lay in the bed for the Prophetﷺ when the Prophet and Abu Bakr Siddiq (ra) made migration. Now today, much of our courage isn't about courage on the battlefield, but Ali was, he was a hero at Badr and he was a hero at Khandaq and he was a hero at Khaybar. We know he was a hero, but today the moral courage is to stand up for one's truth or stand up for the truths and stand for virtue in a time where that which is immoral is celebrated and those things that are considered virtuous are considered to be backwards or demerits.
So this is the much of the courage that that we have to see embodied at the same time, in the way of being courageous of insulting other people in the name of standing up for one's virtues or one's beliefs like to intentionally try to insult people, right? This or to be reckless and not calculating the consequences of what one said, because there's a time and place for everything.
This is actually reckless. So. There, there is a fine line between some of these things about using caution out of wisdom and being a coward. One has to know oneself at the same time. One needs to know the right time to apply the Hadith. Like the Prophetﷺ in Sahih Muslim said, if any of you see 'Munkar' means something that is immoral or unjust, you change it with your hand, if you, but if you can't then resist it with your tongue, and this is the time to speak out, there's wisdom in knowing and calculating and not being reckless in these two first endeavors of trying to change with one's hand, if one is able, or if one has the capacity to speak out.
Muhammad Jalal: We've talked about this. We've slightly, we've touched on this, but what is the role of role models, of men in our lives who exhibit not just these qualities so the qualities you mentioned in your chapters of generosity, of modesty, of courage, of sincere advice or brotherhood. These are concepts, these are ideas written in a book and one can digest these ideas, but one needs to see those people who not only embody these ideas, but embody these ideas correctly. As you mentioned previously, there are many today who, when they talk about vigilant care they mean being overburdensome and being harsh towards women in their homes and to to be like a policeman over, over females.
So in many ways you need examples to exhibit the the accuracy, the the preciseness of these qualities, how important are these examples? And why do we see maybe that's an exaggeration to say there are very few example. Of course we have many examples of good Muslim men in, in, in our households and in our communities, but it's often the case that on social media, when you see a young man venting his frustrations and talking about, you know, women in, in a vulgar way or describing their manhood in a way, which is incorrect, you do come to the conclusion that probably this person has not had that level of that model of manhood to to, to show him, even if sometimes this person has studied Islam yet hasn't got that appreciation of Islamic manhood.
So how important is modeling these behaviors to young men?
Dawud Walid: Well, the modeling and the embodiment is the most important, and this places a systematization or systematizing of this endeavor. And there's a saying that you can't give to others what you don't have. So this isn't just simply a didactical type of endeavor where someone just picks up a book on their own and reads some things and then think that they can go and teach it to others.
And this is also part of the challenge and the need for humility is that even those who are older, who are involved in community work, have to be honest with themselves and say, well, you know, perhaps I need some brushing up. Or perhaps when I was raised, there was certain things that I didn't fully get that I need to work on myself so that I can transmit these things to my sons or to the young people in the community and this is why humility and actually honesty is very important because I was told by one of my teachers that it's bad when someone lies to you, but the worst lie is when a person lies to themselves, right?
That's the worst form of deception is self deception. So if we look at the Qur'an for instance, another example, when Musa (as) was a young man, the Qur'an mentions in Surah al-Kahf that he had a spiritual mentor. We know him as Al-Khidr (as). His name is not mentioned in the Qur'an but we have it in the tafaseer and ahadith..
We have his name. His name Mahruf is quite well known. One of the most steadfast messengers of God before he went to Firaoun, to challenge Firaoun went through some spiritual mentorship before he went and spoke to Firaoun and then lead his people. So since a messenger of God who Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala protected from the intention to sin, who protected him from the intention to sin, who Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala revealed a book to went through mentorship and had to see some embodiment.
Then we as men, we would have to be delusional to think that is we have not gone through certain rights to passage ourselves or certain like education that we don't need it and we can just go and just talk about what manhood is or think that we're gonna raise up these these young boys to be, you know, quality Muslim men and this is something that's spiritual. And again, aqidah is important, right? Fiqh is important, but this isn't the totality of a Islam, right? You know, the sciences of the heart and the ethics of Islam, right? What was our akhlaq? We have got akhlaqiyat, right? That is something that just can't merely be intellectualized by picking up a book by Imam Tahawi or picking up a book of Imam Mohammad al Shibani or whatever. It doesn't work that way.
Muhammad Jalal: How important is it for young men to study the battles of the Prophet ﷺ? I remember reading Ibn Kathir's book about the battle of the Prophet ﷺ. I mean, in it, he had a quote from Ali Ibn Abu Talib who said that they used to teach for battles, the 'ghazwa', the Prophetﷺ on the same level as the ayat of Qur'an.
I feel that in a post nine 11 world, it's very difficult sometimes for, especially in the west, for Muslims, for Iams, for Islamic teachers to emphasize the battles yet the battles seem to bring out, the preciseness of these qualities come through when they're up against the heat of the battle.
Is there a need to reinstate or to to bring back if it's missing in some quarters to bring back the prophetic battles in the Muslim community.
Dawud Walid: Yeah. So what you're saying about the saying of Ali is a true statement. And even in some of the early books, 'Kitab Al-Maghazi', you know, by Al-Waqidi, this is one of the earliest books that we have on Seerah, but is really a book about the battles.
And obviously he's a controversial figure. Some of the ahadith scholars have a bad opinion about him, not bad opinion, they criticized him. But nonetheless it's is something very important. I don't think it was lost in circles of our communities in the west, but where it's been lost or never taught, it definitely needs to be revived.
I know in our area we specifically take time every year to go through Badr and also go through Uhud. So Badr is in Ramadan, Ramadan's an important time to learn. And then also Uhud happened in Shawwal. So it happened a month after Badr and and there's a lot to learn in these two battles in particular, these are first two major battles, but we can see the sahaba in victory against great odds.
And we could also see the sahaba at when there was a setback and what happened with that setback, right? And there's a lot to be gleaned from this from, you know, how we treat people when they revile us or mock us, like when Suhayl Ibn Amr was taken as a prison of war in Badr for instance. The discipline that's needed, where if one abandons their post and doesn't hold onto their trust, the consequences that could take place, like what happened at Uhud. So there's a lot of things that can be learned from these, seen these battles. But here in my area, my locality, we never gave up talking about those those just because of nine 11. We kept the tradition up, especially talking about Badr but there's also lessons to be learned from Khandaq in particular.
I talk about Khandaq quite often as well as what led to the ghazwa of against Bani Kanuka right. In this place of ghayra where it started off with one Muslim woman in the souq getting her hijab ripped off and her clothing torn that one Muslim man, we don't even know his name in the books of seerah who stepped up to defend the honor of that Muslim woman and became a Shaheed.
And that literally, ghazwa started after one Muslim woman being molested, which led to one sahabi being killed. There's a lot to learn from that too. So there's many lessons to learn from these from these expeditions and campaigns.
Muhammad Jalal: There is a danger when studying these characteristics that we aim for perfection or aim for these mono personalities, where everyone either tries to seek these qualities to a degree which becomes almost impossible or failing that the individual personalities of Muslims are lost because they're all they've acquired a set syllabus.
I mean, looking at the Sahaba (ra) we find that they were personalities in their own rights. They all had these qualities. Some had them more than others I suspect. Well, certainly so, but they were very individual personalities and they had qualities that marked them as individuals.
How important is it in our development of young men to be responsive to these individual qualities that they may naturally have and in the process of teaching them altruism and modesty and generosity, we sort of hammer these concepts out of them or these these personalities out of them until they look and feel like everyone else.
Dawud Walid: Okay. So the goal is that we strive as a lifelong journey to exhibit as much as we can all of 'makkarramul akhlaq', all the noble traits of character. And because this is the Prophet himselfﷺ. He said that I was sent, but to perfect 'makkaramul akhlaq'.. So this is the goal. Now, obviously none of us will reach his maqam, but it's a lifelong journey.
It is true that Allah azzawwajjal gave all of us certain strengths and weaknesses. And this is why number one, we need teachers or mentors who see certain things in us to help us and our growth. And also the temper of certain things as the prophet was with Omar Ibn Khattab (ra). When Omar was shadeed and he had to work on that at the same time.
We also have to do our own inner work or introspection which relates to the saying of Ali "whoever knows himself, knows his Lord", meaning that our Lord is our creator. We are creation. He is perfect. We are imperfect, right? He is everlasting. We will have an ending, right? So this requires Muhasaba, self-reflection self-inventory that we look at our weaknesses and we seek to try to put more effort and work on those weaknesses.
And not just only lean into our strengths. And this is even from an organizational level, like I've done trainings and nonprofit management, where we do something called SWOT analysis, right? You look at your strengths and your weaknesses and then as well as you look at your opportunities and your threats, those are outward things, but you have, you look at your own internal strengths and weaknesses from an organizational perspective, but we to also look at our own individual strengths and weaknesses, and this is part of our life lifelong journey in following the beloved of God, Muhammad ﷺ.
Muhammad Jalal: Imam Dawud, JazakhAllah Khair for your time today. It's been a fascinating discussion and a timely book. I think this book will be well received in the Muslim community in In Sha Allah. Are you planning to give lectures based on the chapters or courses based on the chapters of this book whether that's online or in person?
Dawud Walid: So we did a class at the launching of the book at Imam Ghazali Institute, and I believe you still can sign up and look at those classes. It was several sessions going through the book at Imam Ghazali Institute. I've been traveling around North America giving lectures and classes on this going to several states.
And also in Canada online and also in person. And I hope with the blessing of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, I'm able to make it back to the UK. I was in the UK in December of of, 20 21. And right as the book launched, we did a class in High Wycombe at Karima foundation with Maulana Asim, so we hope to come back to to the UK, to London hopefully, or we also did. We also did one in Bradford as well, so we hope to come back in sha Allah to do something I hope in 2023 and in London as well as in Manchester in sha Allah. That's our hope we're able to do that.
Muhammad Jalal: Yes, I know Maulana Asim and I think he will agree with me, High Wycombe is off the beaten path when it comes to England, it's a small country, but it's still yeah. Yeah. The big cities will be great. And where can some, where can my listeners find out about future events?
Dawud Walid: I have a, I got off of social media, which I call anti-social media.
I've been off there for about two years, but I have a a telegram group. So you can go to your phone and follow me on on telegram and then also normally Imam Ghazali Institute will post on their Facebook page when I'm going to give a a class, my next one will be in South Florida. Then I will have one coming up the following month in Atlanta at Sheikh Al-Ninowy 's organization at the Medina Institute.
So, we're taking it to to different places in In sha Allah talking with parents and also talking specifically just with the young males away from the away from the women folk.
Muhammad Jalal: That's brilliant. Thank you for your time today.