Ep.99 - Can Muslims Survive the Liberal Inquisition? with Imam Tom Facchine
Many Muslims living in the West have become aware that the ideas of tolerance, individualism, liberal multiculturalism and freedom of religion – all liberal notions — have their limits when it comes to our community. A series of tensions, from depictions of the Messenger (saw) in offensive cartoons and the teaching of sexual practices at odds with our faith in schools, has brought into focus how there remains an incompatibility between the ever-increasing demands of the liberal state and the Muslim community.
To help us understand these tensions, Imam Tom Facchine, an imam and convert to Islam helps us understand the liberal state. He finished his BA in Political Science and was granted the opportunity to study at the Islamic University of Madinah from 2015-2020, where he obtained his BA from the Faculty of Shariah. Imam Tom is the Research Director of Islam and Society at the Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research. He is also a resident scholar and imam of Utica Masjid (New York state).
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Transcript
This transcript was computer generated. Please check the transcript against the programme for accuracy.
Many Muslims living in the west have become aware that the ideas of tolerance, individualism and liberal multiculturalism, freedom of religion all liberal Notions have their limits when it comes to our community a series of tensions from the depiction of The Messenger SAW in offensive cartoons and the teaching of sexual practices at odds with our faith in schools has brought into focus how there remains an incompatibility between the ever increase in demands of the liberal state and the Muslim Community. Now to help us understand these tensions I've asked Imam Tom Facchine convert who converted to Islam in 2010 to discuss how Muslims relate to the liberal State. Imam Tom finished his BA in political science it was and was granted the opportunity to study at the Islamic University of Medina from 2015 to 2020 where he obtained his BA from The Faculty of sharia. Imam Tom is currently the research director of Islam and Society at The Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research; he is also the resident scholar and Imam of Utica Masjid in New York state. Imam Tom Assalamualikum wa rahmatulah and welcome to The Thinking Muslim.
Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatulah wa barakatuh. Thank you so much for having me oh it's so wonderful to have you with us and it's been some time I've been thinking to invite you on to talk about this subject for some time so really jazzakAllah khayr for being with us here in Istanbul.
Yeah, wa iiyakum and I'm always happy to be here and to be here together is even better.
Fantastic well let's start with what I call the liberal Inquisition now you're a prominent Imam in the United States, paint a picture of the tensions within your community that may come out of the demands that the liberal State places upon Muslims.
Sure after Bismillah…you know my community I feel first of all I don't think I'm a prominent Imam I'm just an Imam but I think our community is fairly unique I don't think that we feel as much of the rub or the force of the liberal State as other places do that being said there are definitely cracks or certain situations in which it comes about usually when it comes to do people get the opportunity to pray in schools right now on the books yes that's a right that's guaranteed to people and they have the constitutional right to avail themselves of that. On the ground the way in which that plays out is that the state and its by extension it's sort of tentacles whether it's in the education you know departments or what have you are not strictly neutral right there's a lot of sort of soft power that goes on that discourages children from praying the same is true when it comes to getting holidays recognized even though alhamdulillah this year we did get a guarantee that Eid al-fitra will be recognized as a school holiday locally right for the following year it's always something that needs to be negotiated but of course the big thing on everybody's Minds being June is the issues around sexuality and gender that's the real place where you see what about liberalism, well you see the mask comes off for what liberalism sort of truly is despite its discourse as to what it would like people to think that it is yes versus it's true reality and also where it rubs up against sort of other ways of being other metaphysics other ontologies Islam when it rubs up against sort of what Islam calls us to do and calls us to be so you have even the issue of pronouns right you have it and from the quote unquote Progressive perspective what's the harm in it right you say you know tell me what your pronouns are and we're going to go around a circle and everybody says what their pronouns are yeah, and yet to be asked even in the first place rests upon a certain metaphysics that is very counter to Islam basically they've set up a thought experiment and a situation that is a trap you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't if you say or I say yes my pronouns are he/him I've implicitly recognized that I have the ability to choose right which completely violates Islamic belief and completely it violates you know norman of Islam what we should be aspiring to so those are the sorts of situations then obviously the things that get taught into class in classrooms about you know your relationship to your body your relationship to your desires us how you should you basically have a moral imperative to not only act on your desires but to celebrate them to identify with them and to you know derive your self-worth from the expression of these desires that's liberalism and obviously that's all very counter to everything that Islam is about so that's just a preview I think.
I yeah and I know that you've studied political science at University you did your BA in political science in in the States before you started on your traditional scholarship Journey at Medina University. So let's discuss liberalism many Muslims may still be under the impression that liberalism allows you to be who you want to be why is the liberal State demanding so much for Muslims.
Yeah, there's a couple reasons for that first of all the key to how you phrase the question that shows us the answer is that you said the liberal State okay because liberalism is one thing it's an ideology but when you when you bring into the conversation the liberal State you're giving recognition to the fact that the ideology is nothing without force right in order to make it to instantiate it to make it real right to make a concrete and so there's sort of an ideological element to liberalism which has suppositions but it also has a sort of discourse that is very you know appealing to people right it talks about certain values that it has and it presents a smiling face to people when it comes to what it has to believe but the devil in the details is that it always requires the state to recognize those values and enforce them and to protect them against other sort of forces that would challenge those values okay and so when it comes to why Muslims in particular there's a couple reasons: first of all because there is something very fundamental to Islam that contradicts the basis of liberalism and that is the autonomy versus submission divide right liberalism if you want to summarize it in one word it's all about autonomy right it's all about being able to do what you want or as you said in the question to be what you want which is kind of an ideological extension of that yeah whereas Islam is literally means submission so that implies some of the time not doing what you want it actually implies subordinating your desires to some sort of external regime of values that's not derived from what you feel and then actually the goal that like the imperative of Islam is to bring your internal desires in line and in conformity with those values which is totally illiberal unliberal anti-liberal project yeah so that's just one that's just one thing there's more real politic and sort of current events issues what has to do with sort of what the state perceives as its enemies its existential enemies and obviously 9 11 and afterwards the war on terror things like that yeah you know Islam and Muslims are sort of you know looked at with a suspicious eye a potential fifth column things like that yeah but there's something that's more interesting which has to do with the ways in which Islam has not yet been secularized right which puts Muslims in particular the crosshairs of of liberalism.
Sorry, explain that what do you mean by Islam has not been secularized
Yes, exactly. So you know every sort of ideology as we said relies on a certain wielding or use of power deployment of power in order to bring about its objectives yeah so liberalism relies on the state okay yes but not just the state there's also secularization okay secularization is the force that makes other value systems able to be governed and participate quote unquote within liberal Society right so once Christianity for example has been sufficiently secularized it can participate in Liberal Society yeah you imagine sort of like cutting a cloth okay it's like there's a certain amount of the cloth that liberalism is willing to keep right and then there's other things that are outside that it is not willing to keep it so you have to go through this shearing process right if you're going to be granted legitimacy and equal participation within the system yeah this is the complaint of all the sort of quote-unquote islamophobes and I don't necessarily like the discourse of islamophobia I think it's problematic but it gets at something that's true and real as that people you know they complain that Islam is not compatible with modernity or Islam is not compatible with liberalism yes and in a way they're right it's true when we talk about values right not that I don't belong in the United States of America not that I don't belong in 2023 yeah right but when we're talking about what are liberal values liberal values value autonomy and sort of again all this sort of constellation of how you relate to your desires and how you should bring them about and if you don't you're sort of living this conflicted existence and maybe you're going to fall into depression or something like that yeah Islam is not those values Islam is something completely other than that and it has not yet undergone the secularization forces completely it's in progress and we're trying to fight it yeah but Christianity has been thoroughly secularized you look at in America we have some sects of Christianity that are quite let's say fringe yeah such as the Amish right okay so the Amish have done something and other groups like them where they have resisted the forces of secularization but look at the costs right the cost is that they are not given participation in society they're invisible when it comes to World stage except for you know occasionally they run some sort of TV series where it's like sort of like oh a freak Show look at them they're so weird right so this is an example of a group that has attempted to resist secularization has for the most part succeeded in that but it demonstrates the costs as well so the big chess match that's going on is okay liberals and people who are you know acting in the favor or in the interests of the liberal state are attempting to secularize Islam and Muslims which is why they have an interest they're not neutral right and that's the key point they're not neutral on what type of Muslim you are they are what type of type of Muslim I am we have the Rand report we have you know all these sorts of things that indicate that the government is invested in producing and this is why secularism also lies to the people with the face it presents right by saying that it's about separation of church and state no it's about producing a certain type of acceptable religiosity acceptable to whom acceptable to the liberal State so you know that's why the government has an interest in saying well we want a certain progressive Islam or a moderate Islam we're going to throw money at this group in this group and Muslims for Progressive values and all these sorts of things yeah like they deliberately are trying to create a certain type of Muslim a certain type of Islam that is fully subjectable or we should say able to be subordinated right and able to be governed and managed in the way that a liberal modern State expects to be able to govern and manage.
Yeah, that's interesting I mean of course liberals would argue well what we call for is a very slim down version of human existence, we believe in a form of universalism that everyone can sign up to, we believe in a state that remains neutral and doesn't make doesn't side with any of the key decisions of what human beings would regard to be a choice to fulfill their the you know lives to fulfill the good life right to get to a stage in their life where the state does not favor one side or the other but actually stands as a as a neutral Arbiter. You're arguing that there is nothing neutral about liberalism explain that to me.
Oh, fantastic yeah, no there is no such thing as neutrality right not even not even the fact that liberals it's not neutral that yeah neutrality can't possibly exist because all the terms that you mentioned being a human what is good, what is life right, you have to have a certain conception and definition of what those things are yeah and there's going to be a certain metaphysics that under guards or undergirds excuse me your definition of those things okay right recently I gave a talk about human rights at Iqna and my point was everybody their attention goes to the rights part of Human Rights and they forget about the human part of Human Rights right because actually how you define what a human being is, is going to completely determine what rights you think they're entitled to right. So, when it comes to what type of human does the liberal ideology or the liberal State imagine it is a secular materialistic definition of a human being right they assume as a metaphysical stance that a real human being has only a material existence that they don't have an afterlife that there is no God that you know there is no moral right or wrong in the thick sense of morality that that you know that Faith teaches yes. And so everything else is seen as dispensable, disposable separatable right which is exactly where that's the power move right to be able to define what is essential and what is not essential is exactly where liberal power exists yes. So, that's not neutral right like I'm saying that God exists we have there's heaven and hell we have an afterlife, and that totally determines in the example of human rights what rights I think I'm entitled to and it also depends it also determines what I think of as good somebody who thinks that there is no afterlife this is the only thing that they have right and so that's where you get you know materialists are much more concerned about autonomy and free choice and pursuing pleasure and these sorts of things because it's a very maximalist disposition towards this life because that's all they have right that's downstream from their idea of what human life is whether it's a human when what is life somebody who believes in an afterlife they believe in heaven and hell you know we're willing to be patient in this life and deprive ourselves and discipline ourselves in this life because we know that there's something after yeah right and that that creates a whole different conversation around rights and what I think I'm entitled to. I'm not entitled any longer to do whatever I want and to experience whatever I want to experience or to act on every single pleasure or act on every single desire that comes my way because I believe that I'm not living for this life I'm living for something that's beyond and I believe in a deity that actually My Success, ultimate success depends upon my Conformity to the regime of values and instructions and prohibitions and etc., obligations that are imposed by that deity.
I mean give me give me an example of a right that liberalism gives you which you would contest to be not really a valid right in in Islam.
Oh sure I mean uh you know everything around sexuality that people are talking about these days right the idea quote unquote Love Is Love right there's no better slogan for Liberal ideas towards sexuality than Love Is Love yeah the subtext and the idea behind that is that love is something supposedly so sacred and again that's shaped by our definition of what is a human being human beings are material yeah okay they're not there's no soul there is no God there is no afterlife so they say so your fulfillment is limited to this world what are the things that are going to achieve satisfaction and fulfillment in this only life that you have yeah the most sacred thing to you the most natural sort of inseparable thing to you is your sexuality right and so therefore if you have sexual desires your sense of fulfillment and satisfaction and even sort of completion as a human being right as a willful autonomous agent is to act on them and satisfy them yeah right and so that's where we get the idea of identifying with your desires and now you have a whole identity that's sort of based upon who you're attracted to or what you're attracted to or whatever right and to deny yourself right the exercise of that desire and of that want it you live like a damned life you're existent you've got cognitive dissonance and you're probably going to fall into depression and you might kill yourself and you know all these sorts of things right so this is the antithesis of what it is to be liberal right the self-denial in this type of way right.
That's interesting I mean, I'm still trying to understand the tensions that exist between the Muslim Community on the one hand and the liberal State on the other hand. So, for example in Europe I mean that's my reality we have got a situation where Muslim parents say in France are denied the right to teach their children at home it's now compulsory to send yours your child to state school because lots of Muslims would withdrawing their kids from basic education from State education because they fit they feared the liberal State and it's incursion into the lives of ordinary Muslims mosques have been shut down across Europe and again very notably in France Charities have been closed down. Now how do we reconcile these actions with the professed notion of Toleration that is also fundamental to liberalism I mean John Locke talked about Toleration as a fundamental liberal virtue, is it that liberals have forsaken some of their values or is there something more is there something intrinsic within liberalism that that I don't know, that limits uh how much toleration they can offer to other communities.
I mean I think that there's something always limited in tolerance or Toleration that's just inherent whether it's liberalism or otherwise liberalism is simply the only ideology that pretends to have an absolute notion of toleration right or at least maybe not in in theoretical book liberalism but at least how it's perceived within where within the culture and so when it comes to yeah tolerating others you have to realize that well what are the bounds what are the parameters of toleration it's never absolute it can't possibly be absolute because that would be self-defeating can a liberal State tolerate groups that want to destroy the state yeah no absolutely not you know that's why there's counterterrorism quote unquote that's why there's the FBI and the CIA, MI6 right all these organs that are supposed to identify threats and truly existential threats even though they cast their net much broader than that in order to mitigate this sort of potential threat so toleration is never an absolute there's always balance so and the shifting of the question to black or white yes or no is an ideological move right to get you to feel warm fuzzies about liberalism because liberalism is about tolerance and this other thing is intolerant tolerance and intolerance oh who if you if that's your choice and of course everyone's going to choose tolerance what kind of jerk would choose intolerance but that's not really what's going on really and says very well he says that it's not merely an increase in Freedom or an increase in tolerance it's merely a different pattern of constraint right so what are the patterns or what are the values upon which we're constraining people right what's shaping our what are our criteria for who we're going to tolerate and who we aren't going to tolerate yeah that's where the secularization piece comes in because liberalism yes will tolerate any religion or faith or whatever that has been secularized okay once it has shed those parts of it that the liberal State deems as existentially threatening either the personality of the state and that doesn't even have to be the literal State itself it could be even the personality of the state which is what France does any sort of thing that expresses that is contrary to the French Essence yes right like that's the ideas it's not and literally like challenging to overthrow the government yeah but it's the idea that it's challenging the personality of the state right that will not be tolerated it can't be tolerated and so it needs to go through the secularization process in order to gain entry in into the arena of tolerance right so if you're being tolerated it's already too late in that in that sense.
There will be some Muslims who are okay you thought well maybe that's a price worth paying we are maybe first generation second generation in Europe and America maybe even possibly third generation Muslims but in order to make our home in the west because the Muslim world is so chaotic we are going to have to compromise somewhat with the liberal State I mean how would you respond to that compromise that naturally the liberal State seeks from citizens who seek better economic and social life.
Yeah, there's a gradient right so there's always sort of like a there are degrees of compromise and some might be justifiable and others certainly are not right so we talk about the extent to which I'm talking about we're saying the state comes in and produces the religion such that we've lost what Islam is right and that's why some people have said that you know Muslims are between a rock and a hard place because the right want the political right wants to wipe out Muslims and the political left wants to wipe out Islam, yeah right and so there if you allow the secularization process to go unchecked if you fully submit to it if that's your idea of what compromise looks like there will be no Islam left yeah you won't necessarily realize it you will call it is that you will think that you're living Islam but in fact it's been chopped up it's been rearranged it's just sort of you know whether it's if Christianity for example is any sort of analog they will be limited to private worship and you know private belief and it we ditch a lot of the filth that has to do with building society and Injustice and inheritance and these sorts of things you know they would all sort of become released to you know what the state deems yeah that's not the only compromise this possible to be made that's like sort of on the far side right like there are other compromises that might be more justifiable such as even to you know to accept citizenship in the first place is a type of compromise yes right like they say make you promise that you're never going to you know raise arms or you're going to be politically loyal and you're going to do this you're going to that you know that's a political compromise that might be more justifiable depending on the situation for me I don't have to think about those things as I was born in the United States so yeah I never had to go through a citizenship test and have my you know you know swearing of Legions or things like that but merely living in the west you know there's enough space at least I can talk from the American context the United States there's enough space to maneuver where you can live and actually establish Islam to some extent yeah and hold on to it as it truly is right and not in some sort of post-secularized version yeah without necessarily going to the you know to the extent where we're going to compromise at that level.
Is that space narrowing especially in the Democratic run States.
Yeah so it differs so definitely I mean and it takes it takes priorities and it takes sacrifices so I'll say that if you're if you're modus operandi is to come to the United States and you want to have both spouses work and have salaried incomes and you want to send the kids to public school and you want to you're probably going to lose Islam that's just statistics yeah pretty much I mean that's my opinion and I'm I haven't been proven wrong yet yeah you know we're talking about you because also what happens is that people choose where they live so and the criteria upon which people are basing their decisions are not Islamic or moral criteria they're you know what's the best school district or what's the you know the richest neighborhood or the nicest neighborhood or whatever they don't care about their neighbors they don't care about being close to the Masjid they don't care about these sorts of things yeah and so if that's your process of decision making then it's just a matter of time honestly until Islam is gone but no one's forcing you to do that right you can exist in the United States and you can choose to live next to the Masjid or close to the Masjid, you can choose to be in a neighborhood maybe it doesn't have the best school district but you know that you have a critical mass of Muslim culture a critical mass of Muslim playmates for your kids potential spouses for your kids in the future things like this and then there's institutions and being on the ground level and building these institutions whether Metro says or you know Islamic schools or even the programs that run out of the Masjid. I was just talking to a good friend of mine and he said that when it comes to his son is 17 and he has sort of through the mosque there's this organization called YM that does a lot of like youth programming and stuff like that but he does go to public school and so he was joking me he said he has friends that are Anthony and Carlos and whatever at public school and you know those can be Muslim names I'm not saying I'm not making that point here but in this situation they're not Muslims yes and then he has friends through the mosque and then so he's communicated to his son those friends that you have at school they are only your friends when you're in school you're not hanging out with them outside of school you're not going over their houses on the weekdays you're not going to the mall with them your real friends that you're going to have are the friends of the mosque right and in fact that's what he's done and he's had very he's had a lot of success okay so it takes this type of intentionality right and we suffer as Muslims and as Muslim parents from a lack of intentionality when it comes to the decisions that we make and forethought and planning to be able to survive and not survive physically we're good with that.
And of course liberals receive as overbearing parenting and you know this is going against the autonomy of the child right yeah. That's really interesting I mean actually tell me something about I'm intrigued with what you said there because in the UK we have got second third generation Muslims but by and large Muslims who went to State schools majority Muslims have you know been through for state school system they remained Muslims and yes there may be different grades and Allah knows best there may be different grades of you know of practicing Muslims but generally speaking we don't really have an epidemic of apostasy as I'm not sure if I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seems like you know from generation to generation we could be losing people in the United States.
I think the stats say is that supporter wow Muslims will not be Muslims by the other adults yes.
That's amazing really it is it's staggering.
So, what's the difference what's it I mean these are both liberal states yes they both have very assertive programs to secularize and to liberalize their citizens yet the American Experience is far more successful for the liberal State than to save a British experience right any ideas.
Off the cuff, I mean I would assume that maybe Muslim populations are probably more concentrated in the usual and so there's always going to be you know counterculture yes right and here's another thing too and we were talking about this off camera about the different sort of socioeconomic you know truth Identity or background of the populations you know we have everything in the United States but when it comes to economic migrants especially that are of an upper class they tend to be more interested in assimilation they tend to be have more Dunya goals yeah right and so those sorts of things right if you have isolation okay. Paris literally make the choice between especially in our area between putting their child in a much poorer School District yeah but with a significant Muslim population and that has you know even some teachers that are Muslims and has a sort of a Muslim camaraderie right that is a not a complete inoculation but something that is significantly maybe blunts the damage or the reach of the logic of the state and that State education and things like that yeah versus right across the border adjacent is a suburb that is way wealthier school system is rated much higher and your child will be the only Muslim in the class okay and if your child is the only Muslim in the class for 9 10 out of 12 grades you can imagine the psychological damage and the ideological damage that this does to a person that's my hot take but…
No, I think I think that's …It's probably quite accurate actually and you're right in in the UK and in France Muslims tend to live together and they tend to live in very concentrated communities and as you can't avoid Muslims and as you said in state schools you have a high concentration of Muslims I'm thinking of Birmingham and Bradford I think I should talk to you about Bradford the other day which is an extension of Pakistan really rather than rather than England let me ask you a question about so we've talked so far about the liberal State now in the context of the United States the word liberal is reserved for progressives for the Democrats how do we see the Republicans vis-a-vis liberalism.
Yes, now that's a good question and it comes back to kind of a historical point about like capital L- liberalism versus lowercase l liberalism so but it's revealing because the progressive conservative split or democrat Republic whatever have you yeah reveals a significant tension within liberalism or at least in liberalism's relationship with the state okay because liberalism is an ideology is predicated upon autonomy and autonomy is about choosing what you want to do doing whatever you want etc., or we decide to be more precise removing the barriers that might encroach or limit your choices okay or force you to Choice something God forbid yeah however for human life and satisfaction it's not merely enough to be able to do what you want you first of all rely upon the state and the violence of the state the force of the state its laws its police it's its judges whatever to be able to make those choices in the first place to guarantee that space to carve out that space where you're able to exercise that autonomy but then in another sense you also rely upon the state and it's violence and everything else in order to recognize you in some of your decisions and your free choices and so we see this with sexuality and we see this with the quote-unquote LGBT quote-unquote community for them it's not enough to just simply exercise their autonomy in the sense of doing what they want in the bedroom yeah right or you want to call yourself anything you want any pronoun any name whatever that's not enough right they want to force recognition they want to be not just identify which is their buzzword they want to be identified right they want to be identifiable they want other people to identify how they identify them as you can't do this without the state yes right so the progressive conservative split mirrors this sort of tension so the progressive idea is that you know we need to be identifiable in order to have this sort of human satisfaction it's not merely enough to choose the thing that I want I actually depend upon others and the recognition of others to be you know satisfied in that choice whereas conservatives are more along the line of leave me alone I will pursue my own happiness and do it in the way that I want and I don't necessarily I'm not as invested in or at least let's say a we can we can pinpoint the idea of what is good right so the emphasis of what is good for conservative is less dependent upon recognition from others right whereas the definition of what is good or what is fulfilling or satisfactory or whatever for progressives is much more dependent upon uh the recognition from others right and so therefore relies upon the force of the state in a much thicker way than conservatives do.
But they both accept autonomy as a very basic liberal…
Exactly, so you mix them both liberals they're both liberals right okay that's really interesting. Because of course in the U.S context we can easily say for Liberals are the Democrats in New York and not you know Ron De Santis in Florida right whoever…
Right, people they associate liberalism not with the classical ideology they're associated with the current sort of democratic aggressiveness right.
Okay, that's really important so there is a start difference between having said that between New York and California on the one hand and Florida and Texas from the other so Ron De Santis governor of Florida has banned gender identity discussions in schools and has censored a number of books in public State schools and has banned you know critical race theory that's debatable whether that's what that is and they've banned it explain this to me what's going on here.
Well, politically you know the United States is a Federation of states right so we have something that's fairly unique I think in that the state is not as centralized as other liberal states and so there is some room for the manifestation of the different types of liberalism right on the state level yeah and as again we were discussing earlier there's sort of things become a major deal and derive a lot of attention or attract a lot of attention when they try to cross over from the state to the federal level so you'll see all sorts of things that are approved at the state level but then to make it a national thing that now everybody on across the board has to that's why Roe versus Wade was such a big deal that's why repealing it was such a big deal yes you know repealing it didn't do anything except kick it back to the States now once again it's a state issue and not a federal issue yes and the same thing with you know quote unquote gay marriage right in in 2015 what was so there were states that recognized gay marriage before that however it was not a federal issue right it was raised to the level of the national government it was approved and then everybody has to fall in line and conform so that's kind of structurally what's going on is that the that arrangement allows for the different manifestations of the different emphases of what do we what are we saying is good here what's the good life what's the you know where is human satisfaction found and the Republican states put more of an emphasis on government getting out of the way again that's a caveat it's a simplification not always but in general suspicion towards the government getting involved in anything basic assumption being that when they get involved with something they're going to ruin it or do it less efficiently or etc., yeah versus sort of the progressive emphasis on good being you know uh some sort of proactive social justice agenda that relies on people recognizing certain values and enshrining certain recognitions of identities and things like that that goes for a much more aggressive and muscular sort of you know government intervention.
Is U.S Constitution a liberal Constitution?
Yes it is in in the classical sense of what that means in that it's focused on autonomy you have the you know freedom of life Liberty life is a pursuit of happiness or however it's written right you see you know the idea of the Bill of Rights the right to your own property the right to the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion all these things are based on liberalism you know when it comes to the political ideal ideology of what liberalism is right okay.
That's again interesting because of course when we in political science when we consider the US Constitution, we always pair it up with neutral, it's a neutral Constitution you know it's it seeks to create a Level Playing Field between its citizens your argument is that it isn't it is very…
It wasn't possible even from the beginning and there's descriptive historical reasons for why that's that can't be true right such as you know the slavery issue and you know three-fifths clause and things like that like and then women's suffrage and stuff like that yeah you know definitely not let's say a completely faithful or logically coherent maybe manifestation of liberalism's sort of tenets but then again when liberalism was first formulated they weren't thinking about those things when Locke was talking he wasn't thinking about slaves or Africans or African descendants he wasn't thinking about women yeah right and so that that was no contradiction to them they were thinking about all of these things in parentheses and that should also you know add to our discussion of tolerance and toleration as to what a limited and narrow thing that we're actually talking about we're talking about liberal tolerance yeah but yeah I mean strictly speaking yeah it's not neutral I mean everything again if you use the word human being yeah you have to have an implicit understanding of what is a human being sure you have to make metaphysical claims whether they're explicit or implicit about what are we doing here what's the purpose of human life where do we get satisfaction from what does it mean to live a good life what is the good right what is the relationship between the government and people in in realizing that good right many of those assumptions except for the last one that I just mentioned you know liberalism has called Wahad, right it has like one statement on those things and it's not particularly broad it's not Universal definitely not Universal it's not you know it's actually very controversial it's very narrow and it has very specific claims that any conscientious Muslim would say wait a second that's actually not what I believe right even though okay that's the political regime that we live under and now we have to negotiate rights within that Matrix and things like that that's a separate issue but if we were in an Aqeedah class or a situation where you're asked as a Muslim do you believe in a or do you believe in b and a is liberalism and the liberal idea of what a human being is and there's no afterlife there's no God or maybe there's a God but we're not going to really talk about that right here you can talk about it in the church or in the mosque or whatever versus no we believe that the Sharia is the best system for human beings through all times in all places no concerns we believe that there is only one God and to worship anything other than Allah you're in danger in the afterlife and all these sort of prescriptive normative beliefs that we have right Muslims will choose B inshallah if you're if you're a conscientious Muslim you should be choosing the latter yes however you're politically navigated day-to-day life if you're living in a place that's under a liberal regime then you have to navigate and you have to appeal for your rights and get out your just like the Masajid they talk about the situation of bribery right is that their bribery is Haram okay but if you can't achieve your right you can't get your right except by paying a bribe then okay it becomes Halal for you and you have to do it actually in order to get you right okay we don't believe in these liberal values we don't believe in the idea the liberal idea of a human being the idea of the ontology of the afterlife the cosmology all these things yet here we are we find ourselves under a liberal regime and that's the only Matrix and within which we can obtain our legal rights and so that's what we have to refer to.
Yeah, that again so you know what you describe there is the Practical life that a Muslim leads now let's talk about the practicing of Muslims you know you could work under an employer who is gay right you could be a teacher or lecturer at University and inevitably you're going to have to accept that there are social norms in the classroom in the lecture theater that in some on some level you're going to have acquiesce to otherwise you'll be sad from your from your job as we found with a number of lecturers in recent months and years who have been sat for even voicing the most mildest objections to you know gender pronouns for example so how much, what is where are the red lines how much should a Muslim acquiesce with the demands of current demands let's pray like that on the liberal State.
Well, let's put it this way we should be thankful that the liberal State still doesn't banish us or kick us out or it's not a crime to deny these sorts of things so obviously you know the Shuyuk and the Ulama they talk about this when they talk about what is like what is like a true necessity yeah and they define it by life and limb okay right life and limb situation.
And we're nowhere near that.
We're nowhere near alhamdulillah, that right so actually the situation calls for courage and it calls for moral bravery yeah and sacrifice to be honest it's like you know I did some chaplaincy work for a very liberal arts college and people go around in a circle you know giving their pronouns and I never once gave my pronouns and if someone were to ask me I was waiting for someone to confront me about it no one ever did if they were I was ready I say I don't believe in giving pronouns I don't believe I get to choose and if you actually claim to believe in toleration then you should tolerate my view yes I wish they don't but that's a different thing you know so we need to be ready to make these sacrifices now if you're a situation alhamdulillah I'm in a situation where I've hedged in various directions and so I'm not dependent on that for you know my income and things like that if you're in a situation where you're completely dependent upon that then you might need to have a sequential plan of how to get in a certain situation where you're able to live according to your beliefs right maybe if something's going to get you fired then maybe you start looking for another job you know before necessarily causing a scene and things like that but I do think you know the Mufti always has to take into account the situation where people are and seeing are people leaning too far to this side or too far to that side if we were leaning too much towards belligerence then I would maybe tell people hey guys let's pump the brakes let's you know like…
Why, why you know it's not I'm a bit it's in that being you know brave as you said.
Well, it can be but it's often not right because we have to consider you know it put our dawa hats on for a second and you have to you know if you cause a scene and you don't necessarily even you're not doing dawa you're just sort of having this chest thumping moment where you're not really addressing the underlying concerns right consider the vow of the Prophet Muhammad SAW was all founded upon trust yes right he was known as al-ameen that was his nickname Allah SWT references in the Quran that your people know, you grew up with them so the level of responsibility and duty that those people had to respond to that call is just you know 100 % that's their Duty they have to and if they're not they're Liars they're insincere they're phony right they're hypocrites and killing themselves you at your job you know or me at my job you know if we're okay we haven't reached that level of trust perhaps and maybe we are just kind of awkward and we don't have relationships and things like that we're in a weaker position right when it when it comes to that so the situation doesn't call for grandstanding right okay it you should be principled 100 always be principled never don't be principled but you need to as Allah SWT says elsewhere in the Quran you know argue with that which is better right with you know beautiful for speech and good speech and so if someone comes to you right and they don't understand they're ignorant they think that this is Justice yeah they think that in their world this is toleration that this is like the best possible thing right and there are people that are legitimately shocked when you explain to them that this actually completely excludes me this actually completely violates my beliefs and I refuse to I refuse to go along with it you know there are some people that are ignorant enough to be like wow you're the first person to tell me that so we have a moral duty to be that first person right and that's why I say you know rather than necessarily you know if we had a problem with being belligerent then I would suggest people to maybe tone it down and be the opposite but we have the reality is that we have the opposite problem true we have people that are exhibiting cowardice in these moments and not taking into account the intergenerational effects and psychological effects right we need we need people to make to take a stand we need people to say that it's not a crime to believe in what I believe and you know if it were a crime that we would need to address that too but it's not right now it's not a crime and so I believe this there's only two genders that marriage is this you know this is what it means to be imaginable it means to be a woman and to ask me to capitulate to anything else is morally wrong and I'm not going to do it and if that requires me leaving my job then I'll do it you know Allah is the provider so that's where we're at we're too much on this side and so I encourage the people to try to be as brave as possible while being respectful be principled be respectful and try to communicate clearly that this is something that we are never going to sign off on.
But that does require a certain level of communication skills it requires a discourse which maybe is missing within the Muslim communities, I mean what you're an Imam of a mosque how much is it your responsibility as well as all of us but your responsibility to explain to Muslims how to courteously be brave.
Oh, definitely and that's why we rely on leadership and that's why documents like the navigating differences document are important although it was misunderstood you know for reasons you know that not entirely blameless for the framers of that document as well because you know they didn't make clear the intent behind the document but this is the exact type of situation that this document was crafted for so that somebody they don't know the Quran they don't know the Hadith maybe they're not well spoken maybe they're not really sure all the proofs and things like that or what language to use what discourse to use whatever here's a paper give it to them you know you can say this is what I believe I'm not going to do anything don't worry it doesn't mean I'm gonna hurt you right which is some people's fear and we tried to address that in in the document but I'm not going to sign up I'm not going to sign on I'm not going to recognize I'm not going to celebrate I'm not going to affirm term this is beyond what I can do.
Yeah, back to the discussion about the liberal Inquisition why have other communities you know beat the Catholic Community the Jewish Community the Hindu Community why have they found it much more easier to embrace liberal modernity they've worked out I suppose what roles cause an overlapping consensus with the liberal State, what is it within Islam and Muslims that pushes back against this sort of liberal encroachment into our lives.
Yeah it's a good question first of all there is no overlapping consensus as roles would have it because that would make it seem like they were equal partners in negotiation you know you had a table on me at a table and we have a nice cup of chai negotiate sort of our you know our contractual rights and that's not descriptive of the scenario at all the power is all with one side there's no power on the other side and so it's more of one side putting a gun to the other side's head and saying it well if you want entry into this thing this is what you're going to do or else it's a Shakedown right a stick up and so what is the nature of the stick up that's this the secularization right so all of those communities have already been secularized; you go to the Catholic Church you look at Vatican II in the 60s and it is a complete unmooring an abandonment of traditional principles, traditional epistemology even so then you know everything else Downstream now it's just real politic now it's just adjusting to okay this Society now is about love and intolerance and etc., that's what we're going to be we're going to now use that those are those are what are real and now our tradition is malleable and we're going to interact with that tradition and cherry pick from that tradition and interpret that tradition in light of these unquestionable assumptions and values that modern society is having that's what the Catholic church is right now right and Protestantism had undergone that secularization process already when it came to the 1920s and you know the early part of the 20th century when it came to the Evangelical Mainline split right you had a you know Evolution and big bang and these things were happening you had a huge split in the mainline Protestant churches or it happened to Protestant churches at least in the United States that they basically had to decide are we going to try to cling to some sort of non-secularized part of our faith or are we going to say okay White Flag right we give up you're right science has it modernity has it you know liberal values and we're going to interact with our tradition again in a very selective and not sort of subordinate way in a sort of you know manipulative way in order to conform with instead of traditional guidance we're now conforming with whatever modern values and sort of Trends are happening so all these communities already went under these for Jewish Community World War II you know out of after World War II and you know the Holocaust you know a huge number of Jews were atheists you know so you know there's no Rossi consensus they've been the faith has been beaten out of them you know and so they don't have you know a strong and there's pockets of resistance etc., but we're talking about the general thrust the general thrust is that things have become subordinated to the state interesting thing while we're on the topic is that while the Evangelical sort of part of the Evangelical movement sort of cleaved off from Protestantism you know opposed to the mainline churches and they resisted I think secularization in the short term they capitulate in the long term right when they got into you know their politics now or their religion is basically the politics of the state right their God is America right at least in the United States and yeah neo-conservatism and the blurring of these lines the point where you saw how they reacted to Trump and Trump was their savior even though he was a wicked man you know immoral you know individual yeah, and so how can this this tension be resolved or how can these two things simultaneously exist they have been secularized they didn't realize that how it happened you know as opposed to maybe Vatican II very you know purposeful but slowly but surely they were overcome with political you know interests and calculations to the point where the politics became the guiding force and the tradition and the faith was not. We're still resisting and we're still resisting this process and we're in a very crucial historical window where it's either going to make or break us like this we're actually going right through now what the Protestant Church went through and what the Catholics went through and we're seeing now and the LGBTIQ thing and the sexuality is really sort of you know what really is forcing the issue because we have people who are identifying as Muslims who have abandoned Islam right that are literally they've dug out and empty to slam out from all normative and prescriptive content and now their quote-unquote Islam is only what are the modern ideologies slogans trends of today. If you say that Islam is mercy then it's mercy according to the modern society if you say Islam is Justice it's Justice according to the Modern Standard definition of justice it's not we're not submitting ourselves to the tradition we're submitting ourselves to the what's popular in society we're seeing people like that now in large numbers alhamdulillah I don't think the majority but we're seeing people like that in large numbers and how we navigate this window of time is going to determine probably the history of the Muslim Community in the west you know what in the UK and Europe in the United States how many people are going to be able to bring back how many people are we going to be able to you know elucidate the Dynamics and what's at stake in this thing so that they are still submitting not to modern society and modern society standards but submitting to Allah and his guidance yeah right conforming themselves with the son of the Prophet SAW and not the Sunnah of mainstream Society so it's partly just because historically we're newer right that's part of the reason why Islam has this sort of position we have to learn from the mistakes that the previous communities made we have to be aware of this process that's going on yeah but if anything is going to challenge the liberal project of secularization then it would be Islam, Islam is the only uh Faith Community whatever you want to call it that has the chops that has the you know the thing in it that can actually not just resist but also respond and undermine an answer the liberal project liberal project says autonomy free choice Freedom etc., we say submission obedience righteousness piety and the ways in which what we have in Islam is much thicker than the things that they had in Christianity or Judaism or other communities to be able to respond to that.
So, how much then do we contribute to the broader discussions within liberal Society we can call it post-liberalism we can call it the polarization that exists and that's developing and you know we can now see that American societies tearing itself apart right some have argued fat it's on the brink of a Civil War at least it's moving in that direction how much can the Muslim Community contribute in a positive way to that debate about the future of the liberal State.
Yeah, I mean these are these are things that we're discussing and arguing about every day and different people who I respect a lot you know have different takes on this than I do yeah. My particular take is that we can participate as much as possible when it comes to shaping the discourse because I believe that liberalism because it is man-made because it is based on kufr, it's based off of things that contradict Islam it has negative tangible negative consequences you look at the isolation that people feel the loneliness the fracturing of the family the pollution of the environment the destruction of everything that was right and holy and contributed to you know real good not liberal good but real Islamic good those are palpable things that people are actually experiencing right, and so what's going to step in and respond to it who's going to provide another way forward I think that the Muslims are the best positioned even look just at the trans issue and all the stuff that's happening in schools who are the last people left to stand up and to face this it's the Muslims right and so I do think we have a unique calling and a unique ability to be able to position ourselves does that mean that we're saving the liberal State I don't know maybe we're providing a bridge to something else later on okay you know I don't care about saving liberalism or the liberal state but there are real people human beings with lives you know that live under these regimes and a Long View of History tells us that things come and go Allah SWT says in the Quran “…” like Doula has it comes from the word it's like we're gonna like make it uh it's almost like a carousel yeah right it's like here today gone tomorrow and so do we think that the United States of America is going to be here forever no it's not you know the United Kingdom no right is it always going to be a liberal State before that it was the British Empire before that it was something else before that it was something else right so we might be living in a period where it's transitioning to something else or not maybe we're living at a plate where it's a place where it's going to take a much longer transition time the important thing is responding in a principled way yeah dutifully to the society around us and trying to do the best that we can to do what pleases Allah and to bring as many people to the truth as possible.
What do you think of the discussion amongst again probably self-described modernist Muslims who argue that what we need is more liberalism we need Classical liberalism we need to have we need to go back to that light touch liberalism where the state is not an enabling statement state does not interfere in our lives but the state stays away and really does allow us to be autonomous human beings and in that context we can be Muslims.
There's several problems with that take one of them is that it's very nostalgic and I don't like criticizing things on terms of nostalgia because the idea of nostalgia in and of itself is not problematic but the particulars to this to this Nostalgia are problematic which is that it's nostalgic for a time in which religious morals still had a significant force within society yet the law was hands off so you'll find Muslims that even have this attitude so it's like Iraq like Baatist Iraq and stuff like that under sit down they'll say you know oh you know we had education we were building things in the economy was good and life was still good we didn't have these problems yeah well there was a way in which you know secular liberal states capitalized on the residual culture of traditional societies and whether Muslim or Christian or whatever that made the outcomes for that Society much better you know morality still existed okay so there's a bit of nostalgia going on when people are looking back and saying well why can't we get back there well the cat's out of the bag you know like Pandora's Box has been opened and we can't easily or quickly get back to a scenario in which there's this residuous in Syria or residual sort of you know religious culture or religious morals or things like that you know that's happening so that's the first thing the second thing is that there's other things that you know they would have to account for the fact well why did we get here is this something we can simply hit the rewind button or is this something that this is a teleology this is something that was sort of maybe not a foregone conclusion but definitely a strong likelihood that things were going to unfold this way that just like you know even back to the Greeks you have you know Plato and Aristotle saying that you know you go from a certain system to then a military state to then a democracy and then to tyranny you know like that's the way the things go because you know something sort of plants the seed for the next stage to take over yeah you know so how are you saying that we can go back to that you know look at what people…
Part of the arguments first the current the modern liberal state is an aberration it's actually the logical conclusion of what liberalism is…
And I'm sympathetic to that view and I agree with that view actually it's like you can't look at what progressives are claiming are necessary look at what they're claiming is harm and violence right they're telling us that simply not to affirm their whole conception of Rights is violence on them and harm to them how are we going to rewind that yeah we can't possibly rewind that like these are the claims and polarization and all this sort of thing is already here right so instead of it's funny it's solely ironic that I'm making this critique because I can't stand this critique you know as you know in every situation but in this situation it fits like we have to think about it's how are we going to go forward right how are we going to how are we going to solve the issues of society now and we can't simply do it let's say this in order to do it by quote unquote rewinding to this time of period where government was more hands off and we still had this residual you know religious reality we would have to be in a situation that preceded that situation right where we had centuries of strong religious rule like structural religious involvement in government and things like that and then the sort of initial stages of a secularization process excuse me where you know the government starts to be hands off and they're tinkering with what's the lowest common denominator that we can all agree upon and you know supposedly sort of protect everybody's rights we're way past that right and it it's not clear to me that that's something that can be reversed at least without again going back to the period that directly preceded that.
Can I ask you about your work with the Yaqeen Institute now Yaqeen has a mission to address the doubts that have seeped into the Muslim Community well from our discussion today it seems to me the elephant in room is liberalism, liberalism is probably the major cause the Major Impact adamant that contributes to a Muslim becoming less faithful becoming less inclined towards Islam I don't really see and maybe I haven't you know I haven't searched hard enough but I don't see an emphasis on debating And discussing the ideas of liberalism in the way you've done today in a courteous way in a way in which you know, you elucidate its values and ideas but you do it in a forefright way is that a discussion you're having within Yaqeen?
Well, certainly and everybody needs to do more and there's certain there's several reasons for this so you know Yaqeen is doing a great job alhamdulillah yeah but it can be doing way more and it has to be doing way more if you compare Yaqeen Institute 2023 to the Yaqeen Institute you know 2019 or 2018. Big difference okay even the people that are involved big difference in the people that are involved a lot of really important changes have been made and I've addressed this Elsewhere for people who are interested right but you're right there is a paucity of taking liberalism head on and there are reasons for that some of them are just bandwidth issues like I have a lot of stuff that I have to do so as like people need to have the time you know to get around to it yeah but more important than that are you have many people who have internalized parts of liberalism if not all of liberalism and aren't aware of it okay especially Islamic Studies departments Western academic institutions things like this yes people study and they get degrees and no one is telling them the ways in which liberal values have shaped their education yes nobody is telling them the ways in which liberalism actually affects the way that they interact with Islam and the way in which they mine Islam for certain sort of evidences or outcomes and then deploy them in sort of you know the most obvious sort of situation is when people are trying to demonstrate that Islam is compatible with modernity or compatible with liberalism or stuff like that right so there's a lack of self-awareness and there's a lack of a genealogy what Foucault and his ilk would call a genealogy of this intellectual history see where it's come from etc etc., but even before that there's a paucity of Muslims that are doing social sciences and Humanities right we have I call it the Holy Trinity of doctor lawyer engineer yeah if we're putting everybody into these three Fields you know I'm the only one I know you just told me about somebody else you know maybe the first other person I know who has a background in political theory and then went and did traditional studies yeah right we this is why we need people like this with this training to be able to put one and two together to be able to look critically at these structures from an Islamic worldview perspective right and to be able to break them down and to be able to explain to people right and that's the other thing too there are there are some people who have those credentials and abilities but that being able to explain to people is a whole other thing right and being able to communicate it there's a lot of jargon involved a lot of the western Academy is predicated upon this exclusivity of knowledge where you're building up your jargon so that other people can understand you put up the paywall you know so that's in order to exclusivity it's like the diamond trade right it's just about trying to add that value right we need more propagandists we need more people that are going to be able to explain it to the men on the street what's wrong with liberalism what's wrong with autonomy what's wrong with free choice yes why can't why is my hijab my choice a stupid thing to say right or unless okay we don't want to be derogatory or mocking but like a problematic and insufficient thing to say actually something that actually undermines Islam as opposed to something that strengthens it despite what people think about it so all of these things and more contribute and you know Yaqeen is like any other you know or organization that needs to go through this process when it comes to the Personnel attracting personnel and producing work that's going to take this on and that's partly why they brought me on it's like to deal with these things in a more forthright way so when it comes to tackling liberalism we have our own podcast now Dogma disruptive that is taking those things head on uh there's going to be a short video series called think again that's going to be more incisive three to eight minute videos that are going to really confront some of these things liberalism and otherwise sort of the undergirding ideas of these things but we need to have more papers we need to have more people we need to have more you're 100 % right.
And that's in progress you're working on it okay very good excellent so one last question for you and really, it's a question about the future of Muslims in the west as the liberal state becomes more and more assertive can we really be Muslims living under a liberal State?
I mean again because liberalism is such sort of a broad ideology there is space to maneuver okay and the irony of all ironies historically right now is that there's more space to maneuver in Western lands often than there is in the post-colonial states within the Muslim world now unfortunately a lot of people misinterpret that fact and they say well look liberalism's so great secularism is so great no it's actually not attributable to secularism or liberalism that we have that that freedom you to stabilize Muslim states you're the ones that impose these autocrats you're the ones that keep them you know and punish them or reward them with military aid and other sorts of aid and political recognition and things like that you know you're the ones that took away what we had that opposed liberalism and was way better than liberalism in the first place you know but we are where we are and so we have these kind of you know Frankenstein States in across the Muslim world that are extremely autocratic extremely modern right deep tentacles into society centralized controlling education controlling the Ulama, all the stuff that is very anti-Islamic and there is a strain of liberalism or a sub strain of liberalism that gives us a little bit of room to maneuver right in in in the west some places more than others okay United States more than France yes right depending on again the various sort of sub Traditions within liberalism or what type of good is being emphasized or which you know tangible goods that they seek to deliver that the state decides that they're going to emphasize yes while we have that opportunity there's room to maneuver yes we can we have the freedom to establish institutions we have the freedom to establish a waqf, right a religious endowment that we don't have in the Muslim World in many places we can establish an Islamic school a private school that teaches all of what we want to teach right we have the ability to do that we have the freedom to do that that we don't necessarily have you can't just go to other places in the Muslim world and start up your own school and then etc., so we have enough space to maneuver to establish ourselves in a very important and structural way the kicker is that we're not taking advantage of it right we're concerned with the wrong things we're looking to exercise the wrong rights we're looking to capitalize on just the materialistic aspects of living in the west and you know having brand name clothing and you know more shoes and you know what to do with and a huge house in the suburbs and things like that and we have completely neglected the responsibility of establishing independent Muslim scholarship right can you imagine you know all of these sort of universities and madrasas and things that are under strict government control like throughout the Muslim world we actually have the ability to make religious endowments double-blind donations whatever we have to do to fund indigenous Muslim scholarship that is not controlled by any state interests we have the ability to do that yes and we haven't done it yet okay we've only been at it for a little bit but it's like this is what has to be on our radar like we actually have the ability to do this thing you know we have certain tools when it comes to governance that you know if you look at places like Michigan or places that have you know Dearborn etc., places that have you know a critical mass of Muslim population you have the ability to control the school board you have the ability to run for office and get elected and not have to compromise right and we're talking local level because once you get at this level where we're at once you get you know more National it becomes too problematic you have to compromise yes but we have enough room to maneuver our question is are we using it in the right way and that's a matter of sincerity that's a matter of priorities and unfortunately we're not passing yet and I hope inshallah that we turn it around and that we're able to use the space that's provided to us by the societies that we live in in order to establish Islam in a meaningful way in a way that's going to survive liberalism and live past it and the modern State and whatever wherever we're at now when the UK becomes something else the United States of America becomes something else as it inevitably will this is not like no one's calling for revolution but it's just history as inevitably will we want to have the institutions in place that are going to survive that yeah.
Imam Tom Facchine, it's been a pleasure really speaking to you today it's been an interesting discussion JazzakAllah khayr your time.
Ameen, wa iiyakum, you are welcome, thank you so much again.
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