Ep.108 - Israelis in Riyadh - Why the Saudis want to Normalise? with Sami Hamdi

September 2, 2023 Muhammad Jalal

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The so-called Abraham Accords, delivered by the Trump Administration and embraced by Biden, has solidified Israel’s position in the Middle East. To date, normalisation has been enthusiastically embraced by the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco. But the United States knows that the ‘prize’ is Saudi Arabia. In recent weeks the mood music has been positive for Americans. It is suggested a deal may be concluded very soon, with the de-facto Saudi leader Muhammad Bin Salman holding out for concessions before he signs on the dotted line.

Our guest this week is Sami Hamdi, the Managing Director of the International Interest, a global risk and intelligence company. He advises governments on the geopolitical dynamics of Europe and the MENA region and has significant expertise in advising companies on commercial issues related to volatile political regions. Sami is also featured as a commentator for Al Jazeera (Arabic and English), Sky News, BBC and TRT World.

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Transcript

Israelis in Riyadh- Why the Saudis want to normalize? With Sami Hamdi

This transcript was computer generated. Please check the transcript against the programme for accuracy.

The so-called Abraham Accords delivered by the Trump Administration and embraced by Biden has solidified Israel's position in the Middle East. To date normalization has been enthusiastically embraced by the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco but the United States knows that the prize is Saudi Arabia in recent weeks the mood music has been positive for the Americans it is suggested a deal may be concluded very soon with the de facto Saudi leader Muhammad Bin Salman holding out for concessions before he signs on the dotted line. Our Guest this week is Sami Hamdi, he is the managing director of the international interest a global risk and intelligence company he advises governments on the geopolitical dynamics of Europe and the MENA region and has significant expertise in advising companies on commercial issues related to volatile political regions Sami is also featured as a commentator for Al Jazeera, Sky News, BBC's, TRT world and other news outlets. Sami Hamdi assalamualikum wa rahmatulah and welcome back to The Thinking Muslim.

Wa alaikum assalam and thank you for having me again.

It's wonderful to have you with us and Sammy what was the response to the last interview we had a few months back.

I think the responses were varied I think overwhelmingly what was the most positive response was that people started to actually look into what's happening in Saudi Arabia I think the most prevalent response was that for many people they didn't have any idea that a lot of this was taking place or if they did they didn't know the extent to which it was taking place or even the role in the government in promoting that and I think where it was quite successful bilhamdulillah wa bifadli and particularly successful I think is that it's created that debate and that space for discussion to take place something that I think that the Saudi authorities were very careful to avoid allowing to take place so I think now that the ordinary Muslim is all aware of what's taking place I think that's been the most positive reaction as always we always have the polarized reactions those who say that it's not good to cause instability in the last remaining stable Muslim country and you have those who are positive that believe at least that they're still hope there's still optimism in terms of addressing a lot of the issues that the Ummah faces today.

That latter argument how do you respond to you know the Muslim who says look I go to Umrah I go to Hajj I don't really have much influence in the Muslim world what relationship does it have with me, why should I be bothered about what's going on at the very high levels of state and government power in Saudi Arabia?

The Europeans used to say that they came for the for the Communists and I did nothing then they came for another element and then I did nothing and then they came for me and nobody else did anything either I think it's about being aware of how these Trends are slowly encroaching and that today it doesn't affect you tomorrow it will affect you the freedom with which you practice your religion today tomorrow there will be restrictions on it if you're staying either and you're not doing much about it at all I think for the ordinary person who goes to Umrah, who goes to Mecca and Medina I think a lot of it is mainly about intention more than actual action primarily because the ability to do Umrah, the ability to go to Mecca, Medina the numbers that continue to go show that Islam still matters shows that the conscience is still alive, show that it's very difficult to restrict and limit that idea of an Islamic identity. I do think that symbolism still matters so for those people who say that I can't do much I think going there and continuing to raise the flag of Islam raising awareness even if it doesn't mean sharing the content but at least being aware and telling people about it I think all that has a relevance. I don't think anybody who goes to Saudi should feel guilty I don't think anybody who goes to Mecca Medina for the purpose of doing Umrah should feel guilty because I think that the reverse alternative is that nobody goes to Mecca and Medina and I don't think that's what Allah SWT or the Prophet SAWS wanted people to do so I think the direct answer to your question even though it sounds like it's a fluffy answer the direct answer is to be aware means that at least when you see a wave that eventually starts emerging that pushes back you know to jump onto that wave and help to amplify it even if you don't have the ability to start the wave when the wave comes you can be part of it through the means that Allah SWT has given you.

Yeah, that's an interest so how important is it that political awareness should exist within the Muslim Ummah because political awareness does sound fluffy it sounds like it's pretty inane you know you're not going to do very much with it but it's just knowledge, how important it is is it to have this thinking about where the Muslim Ummah is and her rulers are in the mindset of Muslims around the world?

I think the reality is that when you look at the way societies are made everybody has a set of skills a unique set of skills that perhaps different from each other and the reason being I think that in Allah’s hikma he's made it so that everybody is dependent on each other. The reason I say that is because you will have some people who are very accurate in terms of predicting what's going to happen politically and they may be horrible at business and you have somebody who can make gold out of anything but in terms of politics he's politically not astute he's unaware to how to read the trends and the like I think it's less about being politically aware in terms of the intricacies of the detail and at least being aware of where the waves and the trends are going towards; to not be blind to what is happening before you because to be aware of what is happening before you it then imposes the duty of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil and I want to give an example of this in that but if you look at the most powerful and potent force against evil or against these kind of measures it's often popular protests it's often people taken to the streets it's often people denouncing they don't necessarily need to know the nuances but they can clearly identify then something bad is about to happen whether it's with regards to protests we see against normalization of ties with Israel which is what we're seeing today whether it's protests we see in defense of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS and his honor when he's being insulted in France or whether it's the protests that we see across the Muslim World against the burning of the Quran for example we've seen Denmark now they're about to introduce the law of two years punishment for anybody who burns the Quran. We’ve seen that's as a result of the public pressure and the public protest so even if you don't understand the nuances or the intricacies I think every human being is able to identify what is right and what is wrong and then after that it's about what do you have within your means to help to push back against that. If you don't have the time do you have the resource to give to somebody else who does have the time if or example you have the popular social media Outlet can you speak out and raise awareness if you're somebody who has the air of a policy maker can you sit down with them and tell them the next time you meet Blinken this is how you can perhaps convince him to alter some of the policies in terms of the way they're doing; everybody has a unique set of skills and I think that it's about how to deploy that but the direct answer to your question is you don't need to understand the intricacies but everybody can clearly identify what is right or wrong.

JazzakAllah Khayr, now today we're here to talk about the process of normalization with Israel which is underway which has actually progressed very rapidly over the last five six seven years. So, U.S Secretary of State Anthony Blinken announced this normalization talks between Saudi Arabia and Israel he announced that these talks were underway and Jake Sullivan the National Security advisor has held talked in Riyadh with Mohammed Bin Salman so it seems that there is a diplomatic push underway with each side possessing differing objectives. So, let's start with the Israeli side why does Israel want so badly why do they want to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia?

This is a bit difficult to say in a way that is clear primarily because I think the easiest way to do so is to put yourself in the position of the apartheid regime in Israel and I don't want to put myself in that position but I think it's the easiest way to explain yeah let's imagine we are the apartheid regime in Israel audubillah, let's imagine we are the Israeli policymakers in 1948 we deployed our population to oust these Palestinians from their homes, those who didn't leave we shot them we took their land we took their homes we established ourselves when they set up tents a few kilometers away we went to the tents we drove them out even further, we built homes on those territories as well when they fled even further into other cities as well, we successfully managed to go in and turf them even more when the Arab states got angry and they tried to invade and Egypt Syria and the like we managed to survive the war we managed to take the Golden Heights which is a very important strategic area. It is said that the Golan Heights against an army of 20 000 can be defended with over less than 5 000 troops they took the Golden Heights from this from the Syrian authorities as well they won that war when Egypt came back again they only managed to take the Sinai Province or Peninsula they didn't manage to make any real gains with regards to pushing you back or pushing your lands. As a result since 1967 since 1973 you've been a kingfisher did an oil embargo he plunged the world into an economic crisis in Australia in the U.S or the like but even then you were still able to expand even more expand even further you signed the peace treaty with the Egyptians you signed a peace treaty with the Jordanians they're not coming across your border anymore meanwhile those tents that have been established a few kilometers further you went back and you drove them out even further you established your settlements all the lower courts come in 1993 you've divided the West Bank area into areas a, b and c in b and c you have a significant control and influence over those particular territories you can see that militarily you've expanded but you don't have official recognition of that from the parties that have promised to wage war and you in order to drive you back you're still protected by the Americans, you're still protected by the Europeans and it's in this context 1996 the Qataris come knocking on the door they say to you please go to the Americans and tell the Americans to stop Saudi and UAE from invading us because I, Hamad bin Khalifa have done a coup on my father and the Saudis and UE want to bring him back I'm ready to establish ties with you if you can get the Americans to stop The Invasion the Americans and the French intervene they stop the invasion Qatar sends up an Israeli diplomatic office Morocco sets up an Israeli diplomatic office as well in 2000 it's reverse but still now you're moving towards political recognition of your occupation of territory that you illegally took and that the Arabs and the Muslim world once promised they would go to war to restore the rights of their Palestinians Brothers. Suddenly we've gone now from imposing yourself militarily to securing political recognition of that territory, but Morocco is not Saudi Arabia, Qatar is not Saudi Arabia, Qatar is the country defended solely by the Al Udeid military base by the Americans, Morocco is only interested in normalization because of the Western Sahara issue. So, you move forward and now you have studied the UAE come knocking saying they want normalization of ties with Israel because they're upset with the Qataris they're angry at the way Qatar tried to wield the Arab Spring against the monarchies they're angry that Qatar suddenly wanted to become this headquarters of this wider movement that would have come at the expense of the UAE and Saudi Arabia. So, the UAE says to the Israel I want to get to Washington let me normalize ties the Israel's Donald Trump sees an opportunity Israel gets happy they have political recognition but this is only the UAE and the UAE is aware that Israel doesn't take seriously the normalization of a country that is the size of the UAE, so UAE says I will bring along Bahrain with us as well and then I will bring Sudan it goes to Sudan where the UAE has broken the transition agreement between the Army and between these liberal parties that want to rule without elections and the UAE says that as part of helping to avoid the Sudanese vote for parties because they won't vote for you normalize ties with Israel that would get the Americans to be happy with you they'll give you money you can solve the economic crisis and the Sudanese will be happy with you so UAE brings Sudan along, the UAE brings Bahrain along and then the UE goes to the Moroccans and says maybe the Western Sahara issue they can resolve it you can go to Tel Aviv and normalize, Morocco says I'm going to normalize ties with Tel Aviv instead so the UAE has brought Bahrain it's brought Sudan it's brought Morocco. So, for the Israelis if you're sitting there you're seeing this momentum wave in that I forcibly took these lands I ousted these Palestinians from these lands. They 1.9 billion population in the world promised to oust me militarily they've been unable to do so I've been in this situation where I have to militarily defend against them but now those who promised war against me are now officially recognizing my territory, before they were saying 1967 borders now they talk about recognizing every area that I control at this moment in time. The reason Saudi Arabia is so important in this regard is because even though the UAE has normalized ties Sudan is a weak country at the moment Bahrain is a weak country at the moment often considered and Bahrainis will forgive me for this often considered a Saudi proxy for those who want to understand what I mean again I know anecdotes are bad form I remember somebody in the comments wrote if he knows it's bad from why does he use them but because it helps to give context yes those of you who've been to the King Abdulaziz Museum in Riadh, if you enter there is a picture of King Abdulaziz sitting next to someone if you don't know the history immediately you won't recognize immediately; it's the king of Bahrain the guide who took me way back this is we're talking about in 2010-2011 said to me Sammy look at this picture and tell me if you notice anything, so I'm looking at the picture and it's King Abdulaziz sitting with the Emir of Bahrain and they look like brothers and they're sitting with each other; no no Sammy look carefully and I'm looking at the picture and they're sitting in their tribals Sammy look come on you should be notice something. I said, akhi I have no idea what I'm looking at tell me he said the king of Bahrain is sitting lower than the king of Saudi Arabia because we are the big brother in this region that's the context Bahrain is often seen as a proxy. But for the Israelis going back to the point UAE Bahrain Sudan Morocco only normalized because of Western Sahara Sudan only normalize for money Bahrain is proxy UAE is not really Saudi Arabia but Saudi Arabia, the land of Mecca and Medina given that the Muslim World kept saying it's an Islamic cause that the Palestinians have an Islamic right to Liberation that Muslims whether they're Arab or not to resonate with the Palestinian cause that it is the Islamic symbolism that means that the Palestinian issue despite 1948 and the Nakba still to this day every Palestinian you know if you go to the mosques they make Dua for Palestine, the Israelis believe whether rightly or wrongly is irrelevant that if they can get the land of the Holy mosques the land of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, the land of Medina to come out and say we recognize the legitimacy of Israel over the lands that it has taken from the Palestinians, then the Israelis will turn around and say look the followers of your Quran, the followers of Islam have said that we are legitimate that these lands we took we didn't take them illegally, that they've recognized us now and Israel believes that if Saudi Arabia normalizes the Islamic element of the issue gets put to bed, I think they're wrong in this but they believe that Saudi Arabia would be the end of this idea of Islamic-Palestinian cause.

But it isn't the Saudi Israeli relationship de facto normalized. There is this access between Saudi Arabia and Israel and the region and the two countries enjoy very strong diplomatic relations so why formalize it what's the difference between the de facto relationship and having something formal.

I disagree with the notion that they have strong diplomatic ties or that the ties are in fact the de facto I think if you're talking about Bin Salman's era, the Saudi Crown Prince certainly there's been an unprecedented drive towards normalization in that I mean we've seen that Israeli teams are now able to enter Saudi Arabia with Israeli passports to participate in sports events such as the Dhaka rally which in 2021 we saw the Israeli flag and the National Anthem being raised at the E Sports International Event or E Sports World Cup only a few months ago we're recording this in August 2023 but we saw the Israeli National Anthem being played we saw Israeli official delegations or unofficial delegations in Medina recording themselves saying they're planting the tree again in Medina that doesn't happen without government consent we've seen Israeli we saw Netanyahu leak that he had gone to Saudi Arabia in 2021 or 2020 to meet with Mohammad Bin Salman the Israeli officials deny the Israeli government denied it or Netanyahu’s government Saudi the Bin Salman's office denied it but Benny Gantz in a speech said the ones who leaked the details of the of the secret flight have acted irresponsibly members of Netanyahu's party went to the radio confirming that the Netanyahu had met Muhammad Bin Salman as well in 's time we've seen this unprecedented push but I don't think it was the case of de facto's strong diplomatic ties before Bin Salman and I think one of the greatest proofs of this is even by the admission of the Washington Post if you look at there is an article from 2001 2002 about the moment when Saudi and U.S relations were about to break which is when the second Intifada took place in 2000 and Bush came out with a speech again this is the Washington Post article talking we all know the story but there's no problem repeating it in that King Abdullah The Story Goes King Abdullah is sitting in his Palace and he's watching the TV and he's watching George Bush give his speech in which George Bush suggests that the blame for the intifada is on the Palestinians not the Israelis and the Washington Post based on the re the sources from the Saudi officials say King Abdullah quote went bananas and he immediately ordered his ambassador to register a protest to Bush and he canceled the bilateral military meetings that what was supposed to take place with the U.S. The Bush Administration was led to believe in this events that took place afterwards that the Saudi king was on the verge of cutting relations with the, U.S King Abdullah informed Bush King Abdullah Saudi Arabia that this is the turning point in Saudi U.S relations that we will cut ties with you because of this outrage that you've done with regards to the issue of Palestine in Israel and yes that Arafat is on record is actually stating that King Abdullah's rage is what led to the concessions that the U.S made later in order to secure the peace after the Intifada, the reason why I mentioned that story is because what leads to Saudi Arabia softening its approach from that hard lashing out by King Abdullah in 2001 2002 is not the Americans or the Israelis, is Osama Bin Laden Tit's Al-Qaeda who end up taking those planes and bombing the Twin towers and hitting the Twin Towers in a way that sins that gives America the perfect excuse to start considering invading the region and invading countries in the region which they ended up doing in Iraq and Afghanistan that single move made by Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda completely flipped the leverage that the Muslim world had on The Americans on its head what ended up happening was the Americans went from being terrified that the Saudis were going to cut ties to suddenly entertaining the prospect of invading Saudi Arabia there is a leaked recording that the Qataris have not denied by the cut former Qatari prime minister Hamad Bin Jassim in 2003 in which he States Hamad Bin Jassim that he sat with American officials and they discussed how to split Saudi into five different states and that the pretext for invading Saudi would be the support of terrorism as a result of what Al-Qaeda did on 9 11 that after Iraq if anyone listening to the recording Hamad Bin Jassim says that after Iraq Saudi Arabia is next and if you consider where the planes took off with regards to attacking Iraq they took off from Qatar they took off from the UAE in other words that the U.S would not invade solely with its own troops it would be able to depend upon Qatar and depend on the UAE in its invasion of Saudi Arabia what we saw was King Abdullah was the Saudis suddenly reeling what Bin Laden did was where King Abdullah had the Americans reeling to rescue the relations with Saudi, what Bin Laden did was he had the Saudis reeling to try to prevent any imminent Invasion when people say that Saudi supported the invasion of Iraq, Saudi did it because they knew that if they didn't do it they were next and that it would be Muslim states supporting that U.S invasion of Saudi Arabia and when we see Saudi from 2003 onwards having a stance in which we believe we would have liked it to be stronger. I think people also need to put into context that the damage that Bin Laden and did and that Al-Qaeda did was not just in terms of its terrorist activities with regards to killing Muslims or indeed it was in the way in which they obliterated the leverage that many of these Muslim states who when they were able to exert it in favor of Palestine they were no longer able to do so because suddenly the language no longer became one of Oslo or Palestine Israel it became one of war on terrorism with us or against us those in Afghanistan know exactly when you look at the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion of Afghanistan was not because the Taliban were harboring Al-Qaeda or the like the invasion of Afghanistan if anybody who reads the extracts of the relation between the Taliban and the Bin Laden can see that the Taliban did not like Al-Qaeda that the head of the Taliban did not like Osama Bin Laden that he considered him a burden that he didn't like the activities that he was doing in Afghanistan that didn't matter to the Americans even though they knew it they still invaded Afghanistan so when people consider people listening who think would Americans really have invaded Saudi Arabia their belief in Saudi was the Americans would have invaded, that the Qataris would have welcomed splitting Saudi into five states that the UAE would have allowed planes to take off from the UAE and in fact before Bin Salman comes to power one of the arguments that the UAE uses to help the Americans agree to Bin Salman coming to power is by insisting that Bin Salman man is coming to power to dispel the ideologies in Saudi Arabia that are at the root of extremism in other words UAE is using the same argument that the Americans were contemplating using against Saudi Arabia to get American Support suggesting UAE would have gone along with this argument as well so when we're looking at going back to your question the de facto relations between Saudi and Israel I don't I think if there were de facto relations and certainly there was communications the Israelis were under no illusions that these relations were because the Saudis dislike them resented them and only out of necessity but in Bin Salman's time there is the assumption that Bin Salman man is truly considering normalization that we're seeing this unprecedented move. So, I would say that in terms of what would be different what would be different is that Saudi Arabia would go from a country that was reluctantly talking to Israel because its terror has an existential threat breathing down its neck as a result of Bin Laden's actions the what would be formalized is a new age of thinking from Bin Salman which is that Israel is here to stay, none of us are bothered to go and rescue Palestine there are benefits to be gained from this, this normalization of ties would be one not one that is done for just personal interest but one that truly changes the landscape and entrenches Israel as an entity.

Now, we hear from the Saudis but there is a commitment to the Palestinians if a deal is to be signed with Israel, how do we tie that into Netanyahu’s government's lurch to the right? we know that the former Mossad chief likened his Coalition Partners to the Ku Klux Klan, how do we connect or reconcile the fact that Netanyahu who has domestic problems in Saudi Arabia are pushing for some form of Palestinian rights in exchange for normalization.

Umar Ibn Al Khattab r.a narrates that the Prophet SAWS said: every act has an intention and to every man that which he intended. Bin Salma's pursuit… actually let's start with this way at the time that we're recording late August 2023 there are huge protests taking place in the Libyan Capital Tripoli, why? because the Libyan foreign minister the Israeli foreign minister Eli Cohen announced the day before this interview that he had met with the Libyan foreign minister in Rome and at the topic of normalization of course was discussed so the Libyans are furious with this Libyans of course are renowned in their history for supporting the Palestinian cause. Associated press report that the CIA directors William Burns met with the Prime Minister Abdel Hameed al- Dbeibeh and that normalization was also discussed, but what Associated Press reports or what analysts are reporting is that Dbeibeh said to them that even if I am not against normalization I am worried about the public backlash, I would need something to help me tackle the public backlash the reason why I say this is because the Palestinian concessions or the concessions for Palestine that Bin Salman man is pursuing is in this context. If I normalize with you if I, Muhammad Bin Salman normalize with you there's going to be a huge backlash from the Muslim world I am not the UAE I am Saudi Arabia I am the custodian of the two holy mosques of Mecca and Medina if I normalize with you, you have to give me something through which that I can go to Muhammad alhamdi and to who everybody else in this room and say to them look I know rise with Israel but look what I got for the Palestinians and Anthony Blinken two days before this interview actually tweeted sorry The Times of Israel published an article in which Blinken reports that Blinken has told the Israelis that Bin Salman needs something to show to the Muslim World there has to be concessions on the issue of Palestine in order to ensure that Saudi can normalize ties with Israel, Blinken concurs that Ben Stillman needs something on the issue of Palestine to go to the Muslim world and say yes I've normalized with Israel but look at what I achieved for the Palestinians that's why when Netanyahu was asked by Bloomberg and he was asked to but if you're not willing to give concessions for Palestine how can you expect any normalization to take place and Netanyahu smacks and say and says really I think you should know Palestine is not mentioned as often on the table as you think it is like it is negotiations really with the Saudis you need to have a reality check they're not chasing us over the Palestinian nation they're chasing us over other particular issues. So, I think that Saudi is sincere in securing concessions for Palestine but not because of Palestine more because if Bin Salman normalizes ties with Israel and doesn't get anything in return he's terrified that there's going to be a huge backlash inside Saudi Arabia which is why many people believe that normalization might not actually take place in the short term when the UAE were normalizing ties with Israel the UAE was saying that if we normalize ties with Israel Netanyahu will halt the expansion into the West Bank so they weren't even talking about recognizing the state they were saying we're normalizing and we're going to leverage that normalization in order to halt the expansion into the West Bank and the expansion was halted but it was temporarily halted. What Trump did was he went to Netanyahu and said listen in the American term UAE at an Arab state is about to normalize ties with you they're ready to do so Netanyahu this is a huge win for us. Halt it and maybe you can continue later on so Netanyahu holds and then less than a year later he starts going in and raiding Jenin again to try to expand once more. But the point here being is that when we're talking about the issue of Palestine Saudi Arabia recently announced an ambassador to Palestine I think one of the first in a long time to Palestine I think the Israelis were caught off guard yes the Israelis were upset about it yes the Israelis have insisted that they won't allow the ambassador to set up in East Jerusalem yes the Ambassador will stay in Jordan yes but that does the Israelis are not angry that is forcing the Palestine issue they're angry that is putting his foot down and saying normalization is dependent upon these concessions and Netanyahu this isn't about Palestine this is about me if you're asking me to compromise my position I need to, I need something to show the Muslim world and Netanyahu’s response is ya Bin Salman, I’m giving you unfettered access to Washington, I'm giving you unfettered access to Congress I'm giving you your Rehabilitation into Washington that should be enough don't talk to me about the Palestinian issues and Netanyahu’s primary issue is that if he does give concessions on the issue of Palestine if he does say to okay I'll stop expanding into the West Bank his allies will get angry just today on my way here to this interview I'm reading that Netanyahu’s ally in the radio is saying we will not give any concessions on Palestine, it's absolutely a red line and I think this is where the normalization could be jeopardized but I think that what Bin Salman is doing is that he has this plan B which is even if I don't do official normalization I don't want to antagonize the Israelis so even if we don't agree on official normalization your sports teams are coming to Saudi we're engaging on key issues we're talking about Iran we're talking about you know how to bring our security apparatus closer together. So, maybe these de facto ties are just the way it is and I think that for Netanyahu and Biden given that there's a time frame to secure it before the next elections it may well be Bin Salman man says that look if I can't find a way to present this to the Muslim World guys I've proved my sincerity with the de facto ties but you guys need to consider something for me and you appreciate my situation.

But Sami, are you potentially exaggerating the appropriate that comes from the Muslim world the anger on the streets of Muslim World towards normalization. We've already had UAE Bahrain Morocco Sudan normalize with Israel notwithstanding what you said about Libya and maybe Libya is an exception, after the Arab Spring maybe there's just an accept since now that these rulers will do what they want and there's nothing really that the man on the street the ordinary woman or man on the street can do anything about the problems the challenges that come from these oppressive dictators in authoritarian rulers.

When Morocco normalized ties with Israel the way the Moroccans managed to temper the public backlash was by tying it to an issue that almost every Moroccan is unanimous about many Moroccans will compare their issue to the Palestinian issue and the like which is the Western Sahara. The Moroccans believe that the Western Sahara is a holy cause it belongs to Morocco it's a transgression of Moroccan territory and integrity that the Western Sahara still does not belong to Morocco and that the Algerians are violating the Moroccans by helping the Polisario front against the Moroccans and that it is a legacy of colonialism that they cannot fathom still has not been resolved. What the Moroccans did or the Moroccan government did was that it made absolutely clear to its people we are not normalizing with Israel because we like the Israelis we are normalizing with Israel because they are promising to deliver the Western Sahara this is about pragmatism not idealism and we already reverse ties with Israel in 2000 in the second intifada when we reverse the opening of the Israeli office, we can easily do it again after the Western Sahara and that's why the Israelis refused to help Morocco on the Western Sahara even after normalization and instead insisted that Morocco had to host the Negev Forum, which is a forum the normalized states in Morocco Marco kept delaying and delaying and delaying because Morocco wants to see Israel move first but Israel are not fools Israel believed that Moroccans are playing them so Israeli said we want to see you more you really bury yourself in this normalization before we do anything and Morocco's response was to threaten Israel with reversal of normalization of ties the Moroccans made it clear to the Israelis that given that there's no action in Western Sahara given that Biden instead of moving along with the Western Saharan the recognition is going to the Algerians and promising them that he's not going to do anything on Western Sahara in our favor we may as well normalize ties and Israel scrambled to recognize Moroccan sovereignty over the Western Sahara as a temporary stop gap to say to the Moroccans okay okay, please don't reverse normalization because we're worried that if you do Sudan and Bahrain will reverse, sort of the like. Okay we've heard the message we'll talk to Biden and we'll see how to move along with the Western Sahara the reason that's relevant to your question is because the issue of the argument to present to the Muslim world is very important. Muslims know that Moroccans are against normalization of ties with Israel but when a Moroccan tells you it's not left that I like the Israelis I want the issue of the Western Sahara the pragmatism resonates with something of the excuses that we make for Erdogan in Turkey for example where Erdogan expands ties with the Israelis but nobody is under any illusions that he doesn't like the Israelis at all that's why this is even when the UAE normalizes ties Israel the UAE insists that it's doing so on behalf of the Palestinians and that we stop the expansion of the West Bank or the like. It's not about whether the people will actually do it or not it's about the perception amongst these regimes that this could potentially result in a huge fire and a huge backlash, what Bin Salman lacks is an excuse like the Western Sahara, is an excuse like Sudan which is the lifting of the burden of the sanctions, once Sudan normalized ties the Sudanese who supported it or who made excuses for it said listen Israel knows that we don't like it, Israel knows that we've normalized for financial assistance which is why the Americans didn't release financial assistance even after normalization of ties even after removal of Islam from the Constitution because the Americans felt this was not a sincere normalization. What the Sudanese argue is we normalize ties with Israel for financial assistance, the Moroccans say we normalized for Western Sahara, the UAE tells its people that look Qatar did it first and also we prevented the expansion into the West Bank which is a very weak UAE has the weakest of the arguments yeah Bill Salman doesn't have an excuse like that if Bin Salman man is to normalize tomorrow, what excuse is he going to give to the Muslim world you're not a weak Nation you have money Biden is already chasing you, your wielding influence your projects are starting to move albeit very slowly and not in the manner that you wanted it to, you're talking to Iran about the truth so the issues are expected to de-escalate as well what is the imminent threat that you are facing that would result in normalization of ties with Israel and Bin Salman doesn't have that argument. So, whereas the Moroccan will sit in a cafe and argue with you until Muhammad I'm against normalization but at least we're doing it for Western Sahara, for the Saudis they will have a very difficult time in doing so and I think that what Bin Salman is worried about is not that people will actually revolt but that they could and that they would have a reason to do so and that the Saudi population is still at any stage where you might have an Insurgency or the like and the country will be plunged and that plan from 2003 to split country into five nations the Americans would gladly do it today if they have a chance.

So, let's then turn to the Saudis and what the Saudis want to get from it if it's not Palestine and concessions for Palestinians what does Saudi Arabia want to get and I've read some papers on this matter and it seems that it comes down to three issues: Saudi Arabia once from the United States a NATO-like treaty a security treaty on the level of NATO, secondly a civilian nuclear program, they want the Americans to help them and to give them the go-ahead to establish their own civilian nuclear technology and thirdly they want to purchase higher end weapons from the United States. Now, before we look at these free objectives in greater death it's a question I asked last time doesn't it show at least regardless of where Islam fits into this and that's a heavy statement but regardless of that for now doesn't it tell us that the Saudis and Bin Salman do have some level of strategic autonomy that may be evaded Saudi rulers in the past they're able to use normalization with Israel to leverage pretty important or substantial changes in a relationship with the United States.

I think that a lot of it was answered in in the last interview but there's but there's a few things that I would add here which is to flip the suggestion that there is power in the strategic autonomy, there is strategic autonomy in that they are chasing Bin Salman as and Bin Salman is not as is not chasing normalization in the manner that he was before there is this disillusionment in Bin Salman that it's not worth it at this moment in terms of the prize that's coming.

Join in the BRICS for example the other day you know that surely is a slap in the face of the Americans that you're aligning yourself much more closely with Russia and China for example.

Yeah, but the Wall Street Journal has an article that suggests that the Saudi officials have indicated that all of these measures are simply to coax or threaten the Americans into actually coming back to this relationship and saying sorry and providing that security once more it's not coming from a position of strength as much as it's coming from a position of somebody a friend who's upset and saying you don't love me anymore I want you to love me again and if you don't love me I'm going to go and marry somebody else instead, in Chinese it's more from that perspective instead because one of the things that's quite as interesting in the Wall Street Journal is the Saudis have suggested that the news that the Chinese will build the nuclear facility that the Saudis actually have the Koreans lined up to build it and that the news of the Chinese is to get the Americans to have a bit of fear and concern so the Americans will rush in and say don't go to the Chinese and that's why I think it was quite fascinating that even with the BRICS invitation the UAE released a statement saying we're joining in 2024 while the Saudis said we're going to look at the invitation and assess its merits and then decide whether we want to join BRICS or not and there's only one reason they would do that which is to send a message to the Americans that guys I really don't want to be doing this I really don't want to be going to the Chinese my vision 2030 was never supposed to look like Shanghai it's supposed to look like Miami as Bin Salman said in his documentary I want to you guys you're treating me bad I want us to have a good relationship but you guys need to get over your own obstacles first and the reason why I say that with regards to whether he's using normalization what is he using normalization for? put yourself in Saudi’s position you are surrounded by Iran Iranian Iranian-backed militias in the north Iran to the East and Houthis to the South, the Iranians have made you rehabilitate Assad into the Arab League, the Iranians have made you give concessions to the Houthis the Iranians have made you reinvest in Iraq knowing the money is going to go to the benefits of their militias and probably find its way back to Tehran the Iranians have made you consider reinvesting in Syria so that they can start getting the economic benefit from Iran and when the Iranian foreign minister goes to Riyadh to sit with you and you say to the Iranian foreign minister okay come on I gave you all these concessions now do we have a truce the Iranians say wait we have some more we want to talk about we want to talk about the Durra gas field right now you and the Kuwaitis are sharing it we believe that you should step aside we have 40 of the gas field and the Kuwaitis who only introduced the Saudis to the gas field as a partner in 2001 or 2000 for political and security purposes in other words to push back against the Iranians, the Kuwaitis are no longer sure the Saudis have their back because the suggestion now is that Bin Salman is turning a blind eye to the Iranian ship that's now exploring gas and without taking gas out because Bin Salman man doesn't want to upset the Iranians and risk a re-eruption of conflict in which the missiles start attacking the uptake oil facility or start targeting the Royal Palace in Riyadh or start targeting Jeddah in Formula One those missiles that made go to Sanaa in the first place or send his ambassador to Salah in the first place to give the concessions to the Houthis in the first place strategic autonomy the reason is seeking a NATO style involvement is because Bin Salman says to himself look the Americans are not committed to my security the Americans want to strike a deal with Iran the Americans prefer the Iranians over us especially the Democrats I want to force the Americans into conflict with Iran by making a NATO style agreement in which if one of the allies is attacked America is obliged legally to go and attack the country that and that's why the Americans don't want to give a NATO-style agreement with the Saudis because they know their aim is to attack Iran so when you're talking about strategic autonomy strategic autonomy implies that is Bin Salman is in a position where he's asserting strength but a lot of the pursuit of normalization is coming from a position of weakness where Bin Salman went exerted strategic autonomy was in oil when he squeezed Biden on the oil on the gas prices and made Biden come to Jeddah, but normalization doesn't fit into this spirit of strength normalization is Bin Salman saying to himself how can I get the Americans to take a strong stance against Iran, how can I get the Americans to protect me from an imminent threat that time struggling to handle, how can I get the Americans to protect me from a potential UAE Iran Alliance from Qatar which I still don't trust completely even though the relations are improving I feel quite isolated so I want the Israelis to commit to my security I want the Israelis to be the check through which I go to Washington and get them to protect me in the same way that Hamad Bin Jassim and I said this in the last interview but I encourage people to listen to it to this Hamad Bin Jassim interview 2018 November 2018 France 24 where Hamad Bin Jassim is very blunt he says when Arabs go to Israel or talk to the Israelis it's not because they like the Israeli Bin Salman man does not like the Israelis it's because they believe that Israel is the key to the Congress and the White House if you notice in the terms that you stated in your question. Bin Salman is normalizing ties with Israel but in the terms that you stated Israel is not offering anything tangible, it's about NATO security American weapons, American defense Bin Salman is talking to the Israelis to get the Americans to come and protect him instead and that's why I think that for the Israelis they're the ones pressuring the Americans to come to some sort of agreement and that's why Netanyahu when he says that Palestine is not the issue here because Netanyahu knows why is sitting opposite him he knows that the Saudis are talking to him because they want Washington so Netanyahu is sitting there and saying to the Americans Bin Salman wants security they'll tell me what's Palestine hey give him enough weapons he'll give up Palestine give him the NATO style agreement he'll give up Palestine you Blinken is telling me about Palestine give concessions for Bin Salman, Blinken you've misread the situation what he wants us to raise the stakes instead of 20 weapons give him a hundred instead of NATO style agreement give him three new military bases and he'll forget Palestine in an instant and he'll tell them Muslim world that Iran is threatening me Iran has surrounded me Iran has its militias firing at me I have no choice but to get the Americans in but to normalize ties with Israel and it's not that I like the Israelis is that I needed them to get the Americans you guys accepted it for Qatar when Qatar did it you had no problem because Qatar’s media kept promoting Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamism and the life sincerely I'm not saying Qatar did it necessarily for Machiavellian reasons I think small state politics is very complex and difficult I'm not making excuses but I'm saying that it's tough I always say that everyone's a genius on the bench when you're sitting in the substitutes and you're watching the game being played it's very different from when you're playing Center Midfield on a pitch and you know it's harder to see the passes that you're supposed to do but the point here being is Bin Salman will say you accepted it for Qatar, UAE making excuses for Morocco and the king of Morocco is considered the Senate of the Prophet Muhammad surely he couldn't go wrong as well sure you can make an excuse for Saudi Arabia and I think that the other argument that Bin Salman man could present is one that's quite prevalent which is at least I can go to Mecca Medina at least I can do Umrah at least the holy sites are protected at least I can get the easy visa to go to Amara at least I can still go pray in the mosque yes there are raves or the like but at least if I want to practice Islam I can practice it and Bin Salman might be able to pull it off with this marketing PR while the Palestinians are left to fend for themselves.

So, where do you place Saudi Arabia on the following spectrum and I received a lot of emails and comments on your previous discussion with us so on the one side you've got Saudi Arabia as the puppet client state of United States and then on the other extreme you've got you know the master planner the strategic planner Mohammed Bin Salman and you know how he's leveraging the relationship between China and America and there is some cunning plan there now you dismissed both sides it seems to me so where do you then place Saudi Arabia on the spectrum.

I think that Bin Salman is demonstrating very capable statesmanship and strategic autonomy in the way that he makes the most of this very bad situation

You may have now been able to buy your way into Hajj and Umrah with that statement possibly but to be honest let's put it quite bluntly we said he's surrounded by Iran yes he's normalizing with ties because he wants security yeah that suggests that security wise he's struggling when Erdogan went to visit him if you notice the Turks celebrated the deals with the UAE because they were about investing in industries but with Saudi it was only about drones and bioductors wall Saudi was interested in was security and weaponry they wanted to be able to deploy those drones because they believed on the security threat all that in the case is outsourcing security and you don't do that unless you're in unconvinced by your own capabilities and you believe that you're under an imminent threat which is the threat that's coming from Iran and he's talking to the Iranians because of this imminent threat coming from Iran it's hard to argue that this is a position of strength where strategic autonomy comes in and where I separated from the idea of strategic autonomy suggests strength what I mean by strategic autonomy is being able to play the options that are at your disposal right which is to be able to use oil to accelerate the rising gas prices that makes Biden come to you in Jeddah and give you a fist bump and essentially try to say to you I'm sorry for calling you a pariah I beg you please raise production so you can bring the oil price down what I mean by strategic autonomy is that given the Americans despite Biden saying sorry the American companies are still not coming Biden still shows his disdain on his face that Biden still drags his heels on key things that you're looking for that Biden is still negotiating with the Iranians under the table, that Robert Manley the envoy is still engaging with the Iranians to try to find a deal that's going to come at your expense given that you you've pressured Biden enough to get him to calm down but not enough for him to actually make the concessions you invite Xi Jinping to Riyadh, you go to BRICS you say I will go to BRICS and not only will I go to BRICS I will make it so that us and the UAE and the Iranians who I'm talking to the major oil Powers BRICS will Now command a huge influence over oil policy that before was in your hands or in the hands of OPEC over which you had significant influence before the Americans still haven't reacted yet so we see when Salman use strategic autonomy to pull those levers we've seen if you look at Chinese Investments over the past six months we're August 2023 we'll talk in January 23 to August 2023 there's been a huge influx of Chinese Investments but in very limited sectors it's in construction of energy facilities it's in construction of things associated with energy as opposed to areas of vision 2030 that Bin Salman would prefer to reserve for American companies and for American Vision when he manages to convince Biden to change track or when Trump becomes president he's hoping Trump becomes president and Trump says you know what forget morals and values companies just go there's huge money to be made he's giving out checks of millions he wanted to buy Kylian Mbappe from Paris Saint-Germain for 1 billion euros 700 000 new salary package and 300 000 to Paris Saint-Germain he's giving lucrative wages, Americans footballers why don't you leave the MLS and go play in Saudi pro league instead in other words it's less about strength and more the strategic autonomy being one of Bin Salman is not bowing his head to the Americans, he's refusing he's fighting with the means that he has whether he's succeeding or not is a different issue and that's why I differentiate with strength even in the response I gave to you last time Bin Salman is genius in deploying that strategic autonomy in getting the UK to send them an invitation and having the UK policy maker saying we don't know if he'll come to us because we don't know if we're strategically relevant anymore that is power when Bin Salman is now everybody is chasing him that is power but if you look at the details of that power they're not chasing Bin Salman because they like Vision 2030 or because they believe in it they're chasing him because they're seeing the checks being given out from Riyadh, is that strength? I don't know is there strategic autonomy? Yes, is normalization for NATO style strategic autonomy? Yes, is it strength? I don't know is squeezing or Biden for all your strategic autonomy. Yes, is it power yes? but is it strength in that Biden now is suddenly reversing all of the disdain and the like that deters companies from going to Saudi Arabia has he reversed that no is that strength? I don't know and that's why I want to strike this particular distinction Bin Salman man if I had to describe it it's somebody who came to power made a series of blunders and has learned very quickly from those blunders so whereas he started at zero and then found himself negative he's working his way back certainly, Saudi today is a power that cannot be ignored the talks with China are serious but not serious enough to threaten the Americans, Saudis are still using China simply to poke the Americans or the like Saudi still sees itself as a mid-power competing in between the two but I think and Saudis will be upset to hear this I think that Bin Salman man sees in Erdogan a model through which you can have relations with both not be as strong as both cooperate with both and still exist strategic autonomy that allows you to assert your interest and I think one of the things that's quite fascinating is the US is no longer the hegemon in this world a lot of events are happening where the US has to scramble and I think Bin Salman in this context is taking advantage of options available for him certainly he's demonstrating a masterful manner in deploying strategic autonomy whether that constitutes strength I wouldn't be able to say.

I get that so what does the United States then want from Saudi Arabia and I read a really interesting piece by Thomas Friedman who doesn't always get it right but he talks about that one of the... so back to the normalization discussion one of the one of the requirements from the United States is this China relationship including there is again some discussion about the possibility of the clear of the oil payments and being made in the Chinese Yuan between Saudi Arabia and China rather than in the dollar which is of course the standard in the world so thus bypassing the dollar and plus possibly moving in the direction of de-dolarization and the United States wants an end to that type of thinking what's your what's your view on that?

I think that the U.S is certainly rattled by the idea that China could become an alternative to the US, I think that people are getting over excited about the idea of China actually replacing the US take a map of the military bases in the region and you'll see about it becomes abundantly clear China is not replacing the us anytime soon the U.S has military bases in key points it's true that the Chinese are starting to build in Djibouti and other places as well but the U.S still remains the dominant military power in the region yeah. I think that the U.S are certainly rattled about the prospect that the Chinese could replace them at the time in which the U.S is no longer as eager for military interventions as it was before there's a huge debate in the US now about why do we send our boys abroad to fight conflicts that have nothing to do with us, you've seen that I think Bibek I I'm not sure how to pronounce I don't want to offend me for example yeah who's made his whole campaign or a lot of his campaign about why should we go to Ukraine when we stand nothing to gain for nothing why in his words in the Republican debate he said why do we say I didn't watch the whole of it I don't I didn't watch the three hours but I watched the highlights that why should we send money to Ukraine when we should be sending it to our Southern border on these invasions talk about the migrants and the life but the point here being is that the Americans are in a very deep soul-searching debate as to their role in the in the global order today as to whether the power that they were able to exert not by ideas and values but by military force whether they should deploy that military force and I think a lot of that has to do with them becoming under the false illusion that they became powerful by their values as opposed to they became powerful by their very brutal military force that they deployed to full effect with the nuclear bombs in Vietnam and the like but the point here being is that the U.S are certainly rattled by it but the U.S also believe that Bin Salman is lashing out that he's upset with them that he's angry with them that this is a mess a lot of it of their own making and that's going to sound crude if we think about what happened to Khashoggi and some of these others but I'm talking to crude politics a moral politics as in devoid of morality the U.S believed that it was unnecessary to alienate Bin Salman to that extent, that Biden maybe perhaps shouldn't have rushed to call him a pariah that for all of Saudi’s woes they are just difficult allies that are necessary in order to achieve American objectives in the region and that Bin Salman man is therefore lashing out and that has given us enough signs that he wants to restore this relationship and repair it and that the obstacle to it is us we need to overcome our high horse and we need to come down of it and sort of go to and try to make amends the reason I say that is because it is this attitude that means the Americans are convinced that Bin Salman men will very readily wind down relations with China if they offer him what is looking for if they protect him from Iran elaborate U.S may not give Saudi the NATO-style agreement but the U.S have understood the demand not about that Saudi actually wants it but the Saudi wants a greater commitment to pushback against the Iranians and the Americans truly believe less so with the UAE but certainly more with Saudi Arabia that if Bin Salman can be said satisfied in this Regard in the way the deal eventually comes out with the Houthis or the American situation in Iraq we've seen the Americans now reasserting themselves in Iraq in the way it has been Salman his buyer actors might give him greater confidence that Bin Salman might say you know what China can't give me more than what the Americans give me anyway investment is coming in from the Americans, Vision 2030 the reason I mentioned Miami is because it's Bin Salman man's own words that he used in the documentary when he said when you go to Miami and you come out you have entertainment etc we want to build something like Miami he didn't say Shanghai didn't say Beijing he didn't say Chengdo he didn't say Chongqing he didn't say any of these places he said I want to build it like Miami if Biden manages to send these trade delegation to Vision 2030 I ask everybody who's listening do you think that Bin Salman sitting next to Elon Musk and sitting next to one of the or Alibaba or the Chinese businessmen or the like do you think he will choose the Chinese over Elon Musk or Amazon or that I hardly think so and that's why I think that for Bin Salman man it's true that China is taking advantage of the opportunity but I thought it's very significant that Xi Jinping did not give a speech at the BRICS Summit in which Saudia was invited, Putin did not attend in person that may have been because of Ukraine, but I think there's it also it's also testament to how Russia and China view this expansion which is that look BRICS is not an effective organization the way OPEC is it's still a very loose Alliance we don't have many internal structures per se that Saudi Arabia given will not hold heart we don't believe they're wholeheartedly committed to us and UAE why should the Chinese Premier give a speech celebrating their introduction why and the politicization of the expansion was created in the way Algeria was rejected Algeria has more credentials to join BRICS than any of you but it appears that UAE and its allies join UAE, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia almost as if Xi Jinping is saying look there's a potential here for being an alternative and growth in these ties but I still think that the Saudis would throw me out the window in an instant if the Americans come back with a full package, if the Republicans come and say we're ready to commit to you wholeheartedly, and I still think the Saudis are at a stage where and that's why I mentioned about the Investments of the Chinese investment if you see where they're going they're not going in sectors that are irreversible they're not going in sectors where China can entrench itself in Saudi Arabia those Industries are off limits to the Chinese it looks like Bin Salman is giving the Chinese enough for them to at least keep the bait but not enough for the Americans to say this is a genuine turn and the U.S genuinely believe Bin Salman will turn his back on China if they give him what he wants.

So, Sami can I ask you about then the U.S place or position in the Middle East today and it's a common talking point now in in Western political circles that there's been a retreat from the Middle East from the Obama times onwards and America no longer focuses on the Middle East and its focus now is almost wholly on the far East in China and the rise of China, where do you or how do you rate America's place currently in that region.

I think it's unprecedentedly weak I think the US is no longer the major power that it once was it's certainly the major power in terms it's still number one but it's not number one in the way that it was running away with the game like it was before I think the US is behind on many of the issues that are taking place in the region if you look at the Yemen file it's firmly in the Saudi hands the US are playing catch-up with regards to Saudi on Yemen and I think that's why the US Envoy is always having to shuttle back and forth to Muscat he goes to Moscow to talk to the Saudis as well not just because he feels himself that he's locked out of a lot of the issues that are taking place in Yemen if you look at Sudan for example it's not the U.S leading the initiative it's Saudi and the UAE now leading the initiative and the U.S sort of adapting here and there listening trying to find its policy I think when you look at Iraq for example we see the Turks now coming in via the North through the Kurdish areas and the U.S now having to adapt if you look at Syria is the U.S struggling to adapt I think that whereas before the U.S had an iron grip on a lot of these issues I think the U.S hold is not as strong as it once was and that's not because it's become weak it's because the U.S came to this conclusion that it could still bulldoze its view on everybody else and as a result it upset too many allies at the same time before Turkey would be upset but Saudi would be happy before Saudi would be upset but Qatar UAE all these nations would be happy the US is in a position where Qatar is upset UAE is upset Saudi is upset Turkey is upset Kuwait is upset Bahrain is upset Egypt's upset Algeria is upset Morocco's upset Libya is upset there's not a single nation in the region that is happy with the US and all of these nations instead of the U.S trying to appease them albeit it's doing it somewhat to Algeria and the like all of these nations are suddenly they went through a period where they were sort of in no man's land and then they said okay given the U.S is not taking collectively taking us seriously let's pursue Alternatives or try to come to agreements between ourselves and that's why I think that while Bin Salman man looks to the US as the ideal partner I think the exertion of autonomy that we're seeing albeit it's always existed I think the manner we're seeing it implemented today has a lot to do with this idea that one the U.S has a vision of the Middle East that contradicts the vision of the Allies by that I mean specifically that the U.S sees Iran as the new U.S Ally it wants to deal with the Iranians the Democrats want Iran to become a U.S Ally they're ready to make concessions to the Iranians and the Saudis and the UAE believe that it's going to come at their expense that the Americans have come to this conclusion that the Arabs are not as good allies as the Iranians are that we back the Arabs and they still weren't able to push back against Iran today is in Syria it's in Iraq it's in Lebanon it's in in this in Yemen when the Iranians want to spoil something they can easily do it through Hezbollah through Houthis through the al-Hashd ash-Sha’bi there is a video that went viral of a refugee in Norway who did a video bragging about how he fought with the al-Hashd ash-Sha’bi in Iraq on Syrian territory against those who wanted to rise up against the Assad another example of the links that Iran has between these different nations, the Americans say look if you can't beat them join them we had historical relations with Iran we were good friends with the Shah, Khomeini came and ruined it there's no reason why we can't establish new relations with Iran and it's this particular note that makes the other allies in the Gulf say that if the Americas have this Vision that's against our interests that's going to come at our expense why are we sitting here waiting for the Americans to screw us over let's start pursuing alternatives let's talk to China let's come to a truce with Iran and then later we can push back the Houthis and the others later on and I think that's why the Americans have become weak in that one the Americans don't want to deploy military power anymore because domestically the people aren't tolerating the continued deaths of their soldiers abroad they're asking questions and it's become a Hot Topic but Obama talked about winding down Trump said why are we fighting wars that we have no interest in anybody who reads the Peace by James Jeffrey the former U.S Envoy to Syria he talks about his interactions with Trump whether generals would say Syria is important for U.S interests and Trump would say why the hell are we there I don't understand why American troops have to be in Syria so you can see that it's not just a Democrat issue the Democrats and the Republicans are increasingly saying that we why are we deploying military force abroad and that suggests that the Americans are no longer willing to deploy their military power as they once were and the second their political alternative is one that upsets everyone in the region so collectively they're all starting to talk between themselves and talk to China and I think that's what I mean by America is becoming weak it's not weak because it lacks resources it's weak because it no longer has a desire and its political Vision doesn't align with its allies and it's alienated them all at once and now it finds itself in a difficult position.

So, Sami let's turn to Turkey despite what we're led to believe Turkey has already normalized relations with Israel I mean this is pre Erdogan but Erdogan has intensified that normalization process so if those my question is why is it good for Erdogan or at least why does Erdogan not get the level of animus or anger from the global Muslim Community for normalizing relations, yet we accuse Muhammad Bin Salman of cheating the Ummah by this normalization process.

I think that's a valid criticism and a valid argument that's often made particularly with it at a time in which Erdogan has invited the Israeli president who's gone to Ankara he tried to invite Netanyahu didn't go because he was in hospital he needed he had an issue with his heart, because Erdogan is trying to is they're discussing a new pipeline certainly there is this expansion of ties and trade between Turkey and Israel which does suggest the idea why is it Halal for Erdogan and Haram for Muhammad Bin Salman, I think the reality has more to do with one how Palestinians perceive the reasons why Erdogan is doing it versus how people perceive Muhammad Bin Salman or the reasons Muhammad Bin Salman is doing it and I think one of the things that's worth noting here is if you look at the way Netanyahu approaches normalization with the UAE or with Saudi Arabia compared to how he approaches Erdogan there is a clear difference with the UAE he approaches it as if he truly believes there is a friendship that is blossoming, he believes that the UAE are sincere in promoting normalization and there is this sense that they are becoming friends with one another if not Netanyahu then at least the Israelis and the UAE; there is a sense that Netanyahu when he talks about the Saudis he's for example came out in a video thanking the Saudis for allowing a Israeli plane to make an emergency landing in Jeddah there is this sense that Netanyahu is seeking a warm friendship with Muhammad Bin Salman. But when it comes to Erdogan Netanyahu is very blood Netanyahu says so the Israeli Netanyahu says that Erdogan come seeking my friendship when he's weak but calls me Hitler when he's strong the in the implication that Netanyahu is suggesting is that I know Erdogan despises me I know Erdogan would love to see Israel ruined I know that again would love to see the Palestinians retake Al-Aqsa or the like and he is only coming to me because he lacks the strength to do so and I think that view or that opinion amongst many of the Muslims is what allows room for people to make excuses whether justified or unjustified is irrelevant to make excuses for Erdogan because they believe that it's more a case of Erdogan lacks the strength rather than a genuine desire for Erdogan to pursue ties with Israel and I think that you can strike the comparison in terms of you can see it even in the manner in which they try to project their identities the Turkish identity and the Saudi identity in the Muslim World itself which suggests where their true convictions lie you can see for example in Turkey we've seen that the government were talking about government-sponsored initiatives the government has funded series such as Ertugrul such as Alparsalan, such as Barbaroslar such as Rumi such as all these other different series that are designed to reimbue the Turkish identity with some sort of Islam at the time of recording we're seeing a heightened issue of racism towards Syrians or the like but there is an argument that I think is very legitimate and justified which is that the lashing out to gate Syrians is less an expression of racism towards Syrian as much as it's a lashing out by secular Turks of the way the Turkish identity is changing and the reason I say it is there is an equivalent video of an area I think it's kojo or another place where a Turkish woman is shouting at a hijabi and demanding to know first if she's Syrian or Tech and when the hijabi says she's attacked she still gets lambasting and gets told we don't dress like this here in Turkey suggesting that what these racists are really upset about is much of the Syrians being there but that the fact the Syrians have found a heaven in Turkey the fact that Muslims are becoming attracted to Turkey is an indication that Erdogan has shifted the identity of Turkey from one that is very nationalist and shifting it more towards something that is Islamic contrast that with what the Saudi government is funded many people will have seen the video if they haven't seen it they can just Google Iggy Azalea in Riyadh, she was in Riyadh at the time of recording one week before the time of recording on the 25th of August at a concert singing her lyrics in Saudi Arabia in the land of the two holy mosques in the land of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam who came with the wahi who came with Islam who came with the Deen Iggy Azalea sings her song in which she says God bring your prophets and bow down to the goddess and she's dressed in a very raunchy way and she's twerking on stage or they're like but this is a government-funded event and this is also part of vision 2030 we discuss some of the other measures in the in the previous podcast but when you look at what identities these two are pushing the identities or the symbolism or the priority of the symbolism indicates where the hearts truly lie in that Erdogan may have dealings with Israel and I'm not justifying it I'm somebody who regularly criticizes Erdogan’s approach to Israel and I think it's really sad because in my opinion the only reason Erdogan is doing it is because he fears economic reprisals meaning that the Turks might vote him out what Erdogan is more concerned about is the Turkish vote and he believes the Turks are willing to accept normalization in exchange for economic benefit I think that's where the Crux of the issue it's less Israel the Erdogan but the idea of the government supported symbolism indicates where their hearts lie so it's true that Erdogan has ties with Israel he's negotiating with Netanyahu recently when he invited Netanyahu he invited Mahmoud Abbas as well the reason he invited Mahmoud Abbas was simply to say look I'm inviting Netanyahu but the Palestinians have no problem with it the reason Mahmoud Abbas went despite knowing he was a political tool used to justify Netanyahu’s visit is because Mahmoud Abbas is aware that for all of Erdogan’s antics with Israel he remains popular amongst the Palestinians because the Palestinians believe that for all of Erdogan’s antics underneath all of those layers is a sincere desire to see the Palestinians succeed and the like so the direct answer to your question is the popular perception is that Erdogan deals with Israel qurhan that he hates doing it but he's forced to do so by political circumstances even if we criticize it you cannot deny that he feels that hatred whereas Saudi Arabia and the UAE there is a sense whether it's correct or not that they're doing so because they genuinely don't care about the Palestinians and they're looking for some sort of political benefit or gain the final point that's worth mentioning is this which is that there are many similarities between Turkey and Saudi’s pursuit of normalization of ties with Israel in the sense that they want to assert the strategic autonomy or strategic power but the reason why Turkey is so successful where Saudi Arabia is not particularly when you think that Saudi over the years has written many checks for opposition movements they've hosted many opposition politicians in the past they've done a lot the reason why is because in in addition to the resources that they deploy Erdogan’s Islamic soft power and it's undeniably Islamic there is no indication that suggests otherwise even the Turks who criticize and criticize him for this Islamic identity foreign politics that allows him to intervene in Libya intervene in Azerbaijan to talk about intervening in Mali in all these Muslim areas it's that soft power that means that even though Turkey is weaker than France or the US in resources it's able to fight at the same weight or the same weight level because the soft power it evokes in those societies means there is a heaven through which Turkey can rapidly develop ties with Somalia with Somalian politicians with a Somalian defense minister with Mali defense minister setup Turkish military bases because the local population doesn't see Turkey as a colonizer in the way they see the French as a colonizer as a result of the Islamic brotherhood that Erdogan at least publicly preaches.

But how much of this is Erdogan utilized in Islam cynically and how much of this is a sincere attempt to reorient Turkish policy towards Islam, I note that during the period the frozen period of relations between Egypt and Turkey Erdogan courted many of the Muslim Brotherhood members even those members began studios and began broadcasts in Turkey once the relationship was unfrozen once the relationship had once again become strong and warm and diplomatic he climbed down on these and in fact ordered many of these Islamic brotherhood people to leave Turkey I mean that seems like someone who is utilizing it's a Islam rather than someone who is sincerely trying to reorient Turkey in an Islamic in an Islamic way.

I think that when you people there are two ways to approach this the first is people tend to look at Erdogan from 2002 not from 1920s when the Turkish Republic was established and the Ottoman caliphate fell the reason why I think there's a distinction between the two is because if you look at it from when Erdogan started in 2003 there's a lot of argument for pragmatism when you look at it from 1920 then Erdogan becomes the product of a widespread Muslim Islamic movement that sought to drive out at the Turk's influence and push back against the secular influence to break those chains where military coups would take place on Adnan Menderes who restored the event to the Arabic language on Erbakan for example who was considered to be re-islamizing the state Erdogan is not the product who came in a vacuum, he's a product of the Jihad and the and the efforts of all of these Muslim movements to deliver these Muslims to power and that's why I think that Erdogan being part of that Erdogan is a symbol albeit maybe a float symbol of the Islamic conviction of the Turkish society that sought to shake off of the shackles of Ataturk the second point that's worth noting is when Turkey took in 5 million Syrian refugees every Turkish political analyst said it is political suicide for Erdogan. Erdogan is incurring the wrath of Saudi Arabia of UAE his isolating Turkey from those who have money at a time in which we've got tensions with the U.S it makes no political sense to take in these people and taking these refugees and Erdogan lost the Istanbul mayoral election 2019 because of the refugees, he lost the Ankara Mayor election because of the issue of the refugees and still he would not budge on that policy not only that he would insist that they should not be called refugees they should be called guests because he tried to strike the example of Muhajirin and Ansar of those who came I don't think you do that unless you have some sort of conviction. Moreover, the way you see and you've done the podcast as well were thinking Muslim about Western Muslims going to make Hijra to Turkey the reason they resonate with Turkey and why Western born Muslims are moving to Turkey is because they see and resonate with a message that is coming out of Turkey that Erdogan himself is facilitating and pushing in that if we focus on the details of the policies it's true you can be upset with a lot of Erdogan is doing and legitimately so but you cannot deny the trend that is taking place in terms of what's going forward in terms of the crackdown of the Muslim Brotherhood and I and it's very upsetting primarily as somebody born and raised in London for example if it happened here it wouldn't we there is a Judiciary rule of law the government cannot intervene in these things there is Free Speech I think there's something to celebrate with regards to rule of law but I think the way that Erdogan did it was less about clamping down in the way we see Muhammad Bin Salman clamping down on a Twitter account with eight followers that put out a few tweets and now the owner of the account or alleged owner is now going to be executed I think this was more about Turkey going to the Muslim Brotherhood and saying guys I'm surrounded the Americans are pressuring me very hard they almost supported 2016 coup on me they're really pressuring me Europe is pressuring me Russia is pressuring me the Saudis and UAE have cut off funding for my economy my economy is crashing because I made a mistake with regards to policies and interest rates or the like which is a legitimate mistake to make Erdogan made it is what it is I have issues in Libya where I'm being threatened I can't control my allies very well I've got Russia upset with my central Asia policy it sent its troops to Kazakhstan to rescue the regime to send them message to all the other regimes that you might be thinking of going towards Turkey but I'm king of this region yeah Muslim Brotherhood I need a breather I need the space I'm stuck here I need the Hudaybiyyah I'm not comparing it to Hudaybiyyah I'm saying the argument that he might have given I need and I'm really sorry about this and I don't want to do it but I need you guys to be quiet I need you guys either to leave Istanbul or be quiet and they turned around and said okay thank you for the good times and it is what it is.

Okay jazzakAllah Khayr so we've talked about normalizing with Israel we've talked about Israel's perspective, we've talked about the perspective of the United States and Saudi Arabia but of course in this discussion we haven't talked about the Palestinians and it is often the case today that when broadcasters when even Muslims talk about Israel and Palestine Palestinians are left out of the picture what of the Palestinians and their desire to return back to their land and to rid their land of this oppression that they currently face where do you place the Palestinian cause.

I think talking about the Palestinians in this dynamic and you're right and I accept the rebuke and I think anybody listening to this should accept the rebuke and that we haven't considered the Palestinians and where they lie in all this I think that first it's important to talk about the Palestinian Authority and to talk about the political parties that are engaged in Palestine in and of themselves primarily because according to the Wall Street Journal Muhammad Bin Salman is going to receive a senior delegation of the Palestinian Authority in which he's expected to say to them quite bluntly I want to normalize ties with Israel I need you guys to celebrate loudly in exchange I will give you millions in support I'll restore the funding that I stopped giving in 2021 when you guys were when everyone the normalization tide was really being pushed I will restore that money I also need you guys to take the arms off the other resistance groups that are frustrating Netanyahu’s attempts at annexing the West Bank but I will align your pockets up with money and I need you guys to celebrate loudly and I'm also seeking the custodianship of the Al-Aqsa mosque to take it from the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan so that I become me Muhammad who brings Iggy Azalea to talk who brings these Rabis to Jeddah who brings these Red Sea festivals who allows alcohol at official Saudi representation at the Cannes Film Festival who is allowing all of these raves and lowering loudspeakers the volume of loudspeakers of the Quran who is kicking out imams who criticize my entertainment policies and the like who's executing people for tweets, I Mohammed Bin Salman want to be the custodian of the Holy Mosque of Mecca Medina and of Al-Aqsa as well and the fact that the Palestinian Authority is sending a senior delegation to hear about this offer from Bin Salman knowing full well that he's doing it in order to normalize ties with Israel speaks volumes as to the state of the Palestinian Authority and where they feel they lie politically in their defense the Oslo Accords that were signed in 1993 meant that the Palestinian Authority given it to a squeeze felt that they should reign in the resistance in order to keep Israel off its back Israel decided to renege on its agreement and continue to keep coming in in terms of trying to annex the West Bank but I think the Palestinians insofar as a Palestinian Authority are concerned are trying to they are going to be used by Bin Salman as the tool through which we talked about this early in the in this conversation where Bin Salman man will say Muhammad Jalal you're angry with me about normalization but the one who is affected by the cause the Palestinian Authority themselves are celebrating this normalization as something that is good and your Erdogan normalizes with it ties with Israel anyway it doesn't mean I'm doing it very badly I think with Hamas they have a more difficult situation in that the priority of normalization Netanyahu will demand from Bin Salman that he really presses the Palestinian Authority to take the weapons off the resistance to reign in those resistance movements so that Netanyahu can actually continue to annex the West Bank we spoke earlier how Netanyahu is unlikely to give up on his desire to annex the West Bank he may do like the UAE and that he delays it but he's intent on annexing it because he believes on gaining as much territory as possible. I think though for the ordinary Palestinians I think they've lost a lot of faith already in the organizations that are supposed to represent them such as the Palestinian Authority themselves I also think that a lot of the gains that have been made from the Palestinian Authority are from the ordinary of gains on the Palestine cause from the Palestine unions themselves if you look at for example the US today is debating why are we giving money to the Israelis why are we giving funding to Netanyahu as a far-right government Americans are now talking about things that would have been taboo just a few years back and that's as a result of the Palestinians and their social media and showing the reality and let me give an example I told you earlier about Iggy's twerking those who are listening to it will say no I need to find the source but when you see the video of it there is this sense of shock that this is happening in the Holy Mosque in other words hearing about it and seeing it are two different things the world's population used to hear about the Palestinian cause that homes are being demolished and the like but when they saw it on Instagram when they saw it on social media that's what evoked Nicholas Christoph and these others to write in the New York Times and other papers that we need to revise our relationship with Israel because it's too vile what we're seeing with regards to the social media or the like. I do think that also when we're looking at the Palestinians in terms of the reality is they have no choice their homes are being demolished they're being kicked out of their land they're being forced into tents they will continue to be made into refugees those who visit Palestine will notice that when they cross the Jordanian border when they go to Al-Aqsa when they go to Bethlehem or Nablus or Haifa for some of these other places you can see the settler encampments growing you can see them everywhere the reality is they're under a heavy situation in which they have no choice but to continue pushing back so normalization may bring peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia but it won't bring peace for the Palestinians suggesting that what we're seeing instead is Saudi Arabia securing its gains and running away from the cause but the Palestinians left to fend for themselves. The final Point that's worth noting is this: the Palestinians have been fighting for over 80 90 years now for their right to return to their land to return to their homes not to take revenge on the Jewish population for their right to their land and their homes and the right to a state in which they coexist peacefully unlike the Israelis who are seeking a state that is ethnonationalist ethnocentric and the like I do think that where the Palestinians are succeeding is popping this bubble so for example when Ben Gvir you mentioned that you call them the Ku Kux Klan early and his views are very much like the Ku Kux Klan when he goes on TV and says to an Arab journalist that my wife's right to walk through Sumeria and Jericho is more important than your right to freedom when they're complaining about the checkpoints and they're complaining about the restricted freedom of movement many Israeli liberals were shocked by Ben-Gvir's statement but here's the question why would you be shocked about Ben-Gvir's when all he did was describe the de facto situation of Israel since 1948, all that Ben Gvir did was describe the system of apartheid that didn't come about with the right-wing government of Netanyahu that's been there since 1948 say all mad and all these other guys performed they implemented this suggesting that in Israel there is this sense of trans so hypnotic trends where even the Israelis have been desensitized to the reality of their apartheid regime and the greatest proof of that is these protests taking place against the judiciary in that they're trying to protect their democracy as they call it from Netanyahu’s interference over judiciary that legalizes the demolition of Palestinian homes that legalizes the theft of Palestinian lands that turfs Palestinians from their homes and gives the court says this is legitimate showing that for them they see it as democratic but they've been so desensitized to apartheid that they cannot see the fallacy of calling their protest pro-democracy in that they don't come out to protest apartheid they come out to protest the judiciary that if only affects them but the point here being is where the Palestinians are succeeding is in dispelling this bubble dispelling this hypnotic trends and I think that the Palestinians even if the Palestinian Authority is used in order to push the Saudis or welcome the Saudi normalization I think the Palestinians have no choice but to continue as they are and maybe a new leadership will emerge exactly

JazzakAllah khayr, okay and one final question for you Sami, how important is Palestine? how important is Al Quds for the Muslim Ummah?

I think that first and foremost Allah SWT himself in the Quran in the beginning of Surah al Israa the point here being that when you look at for example Allah SWT describing Al Aqsa, that we have blessed the areas around it that Allah SWT puts it in the same sentence as Masjid al Haraam, the Kaaba itself and we know that for example that Allah SWT in many a Hadith the Prophet SAWS talked about the sanctity of the Kaaba the Al-Aqsa being the place where the Prophet Muhammad SAWS ascended the heavens is the gateway to heaven where he led the prophets in prayers I think that it's it the religious sanctity is there also in the same Surah Allah SWT links al Aqsa to Musa a.s and to Nuh suggesting it's been blessed since almost the dawn of time itself the second point that's worth noting is that Palestine or Al-Aqsa itself it's not just important in terms of its standing with regards to Isra wa al Miraj, but also in the fact that the Palestinians have been driven from their homes if you notice when Allah describes the Sahaba of the Prophet Muhammad he talks those who've been driven from their homes and Allah repeats it in many Ayahs over and over suggesting in the sight of Allah it's a crime of such huge gravity to be illegitimately driven from your homes and we know that the Prophet Muhammad SWAS in the final Hajj when he gives a statement he says that your wealth honor and property and blood is sacred upon each of you as the sacred nature of this month of this land suggesting that the idea of a people whether it's the Uyghurs or the Rohingya or the Palestinians being driven from their homes is sacred like the sanctity of the Kaaba in the holiest of months in the holiest of pilgrimage itself Allah describing just how horrible a crime it is to be driven from your homes and I think this is why there is this element of resonance towards this oppression that's taking place in Palestine in that this idea that the Palestinian was living in their home and then the Jewish refugees who were put under the Holocaust by the Europeans persecuted by the Europeans guest by the Europeans slaughtered by the Europeans in the Inquisition slaughtered by the Europeans driven out of Europe by the Europeans came to Palestine to the Muslim lands where the Muslims said to them we have a rich history of coexistence we have a rich history of living side by side we did it in Andalusia which is objectively considered the epitome of what coexistence looks like under Muslim rule come and live side by side with us the Muslims welcome the Jewish population into the lands and the Zionist project convinced many of the Jewish population at the time not all of them but many of them to lift the gun go and turf the Palestinian out of their homes seize their land seize their homes and put them into refugee camps the idea being that we took in people as a guest and agreed to live with them side by side and they decided instead to take the house from underneath us and kick us all the way out not only that the reason Palestine means so much is because there is this glaring shock that instead of the world coming to an agreement that this is an apartheid regime that is set on oppressing the Palestinians we see instead a coordinated approach from the International Community to legalize the illegality to say okay Israel may have taken these lands and stolen these lands and committed ethnic cleansing and driven the Palestinians out but because we like them better than these backward Arab Muslims let's discuss not about how to get the Palestinians to return to their lands let's talk about how much theft can we legalize as part of a two-state solution we don't want coexistence and the sad reality is that even those who are sympathetic to the Palestinians don't want to see rights of return such as Bernie Sanders he was asked in an interview in Al Jazeera where he sympathized with the Palestinians of Dina Takruri says to him but you know once the solution let's all live together and Bernie Sanders says no, that would mean the end of Israel the point here being is and the reason they don't want it is because they believe that in a majority state where the Arabs are majority the Premiership would go to the Palestinians the presidency would go to the Palestinians so I think what it means more is that as a people not just Muslims but Ordinary People in their inclination towards Justice it's glaring this is an apartheid like you used to read about in South Africa this is colonization like you read about in the French books when we used to read it as children we used to think how did the world operate where these injustices were allowed to take place and we see it with our own eyes what the reason Palestine means so much is one because of its religious sanctity with regards to its status amongst the Prophets and it's mentioned in the Quran two because of the people being driven out of their homes the idea being that they should have the right to return to their homes and three this idea that instead of the world concurring that they have a right to return the world is instead saying to the oppressed while the oppressor is taking more lands while the oppressor continues to kill the Palestinians and take more lands the world is going to the oppressed and telling them listen we're never going to let you get your land back we want you to accept to live in this refugee camp and we want you to allow this theft and legalize that theft itself I think that when it comes to the Palestinian cause the final thing that's worth mentioning is this Palestine reflects the human consciousness of resistance the fact that despite everything that has happened the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing the slaughtering or the like the Palestinians continue generation after generation fighting for their cause suggesting that the human spirit doesn't die and I think one thing that every Muslim should celebrate as well is this idea that the Palestinian cause remains rooted in the Islamic conscience because it is everything to do with morality when Alija Izetbegovic the Bosnian president was asked they said to him you keep preaching this Democratic state where the Croat, Serbs and Bosnians live together this European tolerance of yours and Izetbegovic says wait a minute this isn't a European tolerance that makes me call for this this is an Islamic tolerance the European tolerance is the tolerance of two World Wars the Holocaust the acceptance of a Serbian genocide because you're scared of a Muslim majoritarian State emerging in the heart of Europe my tolerance comes from Islam that tells me to respect Ahlul Kitab and one of the greatest pronouncements of this is that at the end of the Bosnian War when they asked Izetbegovic are what is the most striking symbolism that strikes you he said notice how many minutes the Croats and Serbs destroyed I challenge you to find a single church that the Muslims destroyed suggesting how and this is why I link it straight to the Palestinian cause the idea that it reflects it embodies the morality and consciousness of the Muslim Ummah that's why it means so much for the Muslims that's why it means so much it's less about the idea of the Muslimness of Al-Aqsa and more about the idea of justice and more by the idea that Allah's law already achieved the coexistence it can be achieved again in Jerusalem and the final point I will say on this is this in that there are many of the Jewish population the reason they fear a one-state solution is because they fear revenge but Allah SWT in the Quran when he told the Sahaba to go and take their homes back they said he said once you take your homes back do not go beyond that take what is yours by right and do not transgress for Allah does not love the transgressors the Muslims are not driven by Revenge when it comes to issue of Palestine they're driven by Justice restore the rights of return restore the land restore the homes and let's live on this land together because the way that Europe persecuted you is not the way the Muslims persecuted you in Andalusia and Bagdad and these other places the Muslims are higher than that in terms of their Akhlaq and that's why I think that when it comes to this issue of Palestine in and of itself not only does the resistance reflect the Islamic principles but the goal that we're seeking to achieve is one that is noble one that is coexistence under Islamic rule because the Islamic rule is the one that guaranteed the coexistence in a way Europe has never been able to demonstrate or prove.

Sami Hamdi it's been great to have you with us once again jazzakAllah khayr for your time.

Thank you very much. JazzakAllah

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