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Japan is a country that is known for its deep connection with tradition. Much of its rich culture comes from its adherence to two religious beliefs, Shintoism and Buddhism but it has also been influenced by Confucianism. The Japanese value purity and cleanliness. Unlike western individualism, Japanese culture places a great deal of attention on the group and mutual respect with a strong emphasis on harmony and balance. Although globalisation has brought with it westernisation, there is still an emphasis on learning Japanese customs at an early age, such as practicing the tea ceremony, wearing kimono and studying arts and crafts.

Our guest, Dr Naoki Yamamoto converted to Islam 14 years ago. He is now an academic at Istanbul’s Marmara University and helps a growing number of Japanese converts acclimatise to their Islamic commitments. Many of whom attend classes in this city. Dr Naoki argues that for Islam to be successful in Japan, it needs to work in harmony with Japanese culture. Indeed he is known in Istanbul for demonstrating the tea ceremony. We discuss Muslim converts in Japan and the themes he raises of cultural harmony and Islam. Can Islam adopt the cultural heritage of Japan?

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Transcript

An Islamic Japan?

This transcriot was computer generated. Please check the transcript against the programme for accuracy.

Japan is a country that is known for its deep connection with tradition, much of

its Rich culture comes from its adherence to two religious beliefs Shintoism and Buddhism, but it also has been influenced by Chinese Confucianism. The Japanese value Purity and cleanliness unlike Western individualism, Japanese culture places a great deal of attention on the group and mutual respectful and strong emphasis on harmony and balance. Although globalization has brought with it westernization there is still a great emphasis on learning Japanese Customs at an early age such as practicing the Tea Ceremony wearing the Kimono and studying arts and crafts. My guest today, Dr Naoki Yamamoto converted to Islam 14 years ago, he is now an academic at Istanbul's Marmara University and helps a growing number of Japanese converts acclimatized to very Islamic commitments, many of whom attend classes in this city of Istanbul. Dr Naoki argues that for Islam to be successful in Japan it needs to work in harmony with Japanese culture, indeed he is known in Istanbul for demonstrating the Tea Ceremony. Today I want to discuss Muslim converts in Japan and the themes he raises of cultural harmony and Islam; can Islam adopt the cultural heritage of Japan? Dr Naoki Yamamoto assalamu alaikum warahmatullah, and it's a pleasure to have you with us on The Thinking Muslim

Wa alaikum assalam, thank you for inviting me.

Well, I've been thinking to invite you for some time, and I know you brought with you a lot of artifacts, cultural artifacts and alhamdulillah you've changed…

You've made my…Then you've made, you've brought some Zen maybe to my, to my studio here, so we really are going to talk about culture today and maybe zoom out and think about how culture fits in to Islam and the way we as Muslims view the world around us. Now, Dr Naoki when I meet a Japanese person I think according to Japanese culture I'm not meant to shake their hands or make any physical contact, but Muslims as you know shake hands, Muslims they hug some Muslims Arab Muslims they kiss you as well which I find sometimes a bit uncomfortable. How does a Japanese convert navigate these different cultures?

To be honest, let me start with my own experiences. I became Muslim like 14 years ago yes, and I became Muslim in Egypt, and I went to eat in Cairo to study like standard like Arabic. So, I studied in Arabic like a language school yeah at

the time I was a non-Muslim, but the everywhere I walked like Street on the like like Zamalic or like a Jammah Hussein or every like a street, when I enter in a restaurant you know they are always like to welcome me like ya Habibi, ya Habibi, and they all hug me. But I still remember you know the warmth that you know when they hug, and of course like this I don't know if how can I say like this physical contact might be like a little new to a Japanese, but I can definitely say that now like especially Japanese like Japanese use like they're really like struggling and suffering from like a loneliness you know they feel something like attachment yeah. And it may be very strange to them, but also it has a really beautiful impact because I still remember you know the warmth that you know, they hugged me, they were saying they were, they shaked hands with me, yes. And sometimes you know this like hugging it might be like more like inspiring and then just like talking about Islam or like arguing about Islam or improving Islam like it was, and you know I'm also like becoming I'm 33 years old and also become an old man and you know we didn't get age like it's really difficult to adapt with different cultures yeah. For example, now I live in Turkey for like five years and I can say that every day you know I encounter like something different from a Japanese culture yeah. But especially for young people you know they are adaptable you know they are more open towards the different cultures for example now and now the five, no the six non-Muslims, like a Japanese students are studying like a Turkish language at the even holding University for the Intensive architecture language like summer school. But they're really enjoying in Turkey like Istanbul yes and some of them they're really open to the Turkish cultures and they're always like going trying to like going out Istanbul and just traveling. So, yes like there are so many differences but we also must know that we should not like orientalize about ourselves it means like you know that you know it's in the end it's just a cultural difference yes, yes.

That's very interesting, and so you've talked to her about a Japanese exchange there are students here who are Muslims they become Muslims and they learn oh they are non-Muslims?

Which one?

Yeah the students at Ibn Haldun who have come from the summer course. Oh, they are non- Muslim, yeah but I also have like my Japanese like Muslim Students yes like two of them are studying at Ibn Haldun, yeah. Another one they're studying the Turkish language schools yeah and another three Japanese, no two, another two Japanese Muslim will also come to Istanbul right to study like Islamic Studies okay yes, and they were also and one of the biggest thing about Istanbul is the …This Istanbul City so it has like a it has a really beautiful like a cultures yes like it means that you know you can feel that Islam is not about the words, Islam is not about ideologies, like Islam isn't how you live yes. Because I, myself is also like a minority Muslim so I live in Japan yes and like maybe like you know better but living Muslim in a non- Muslim country is tough I guess sometimes it's really challenging yeah, and something you have to encounter like kind of like uncountable questions or something you have to prepare like every like every day like every morning when you wake up yes like you have to be ready that when you go to the schools or universities or the company that's somebody that you have to expect you have to ready there's somebody like ask you uncomfortable questions or something you have to argue with that yeah but not everyone is like in the Super Genius like we are not like a Gazali yeah, and something you fail to argue, with argue some things and something you end the time you feel so lonely and you think that we think that we had a failure right but still like but in Istanbul at least another Japanese like brother who recently they came to Istanbul and he's, he said to me that in Istanbul that you feel that you belong to these communities right. If you don't see these people yeah, and this is in one of the beautiful things about like I live in Istanbul and especially like foreign, like new Japanese converts. In order not to not see Islam as just like you know the fix I don't know like internet like package that you can download and install something yes like I want I want my Japanese students to know that Islam is like a way of living and it's like a way of living, that you know Islam is not about like becoming like someone like perfect like a Muslim, but you understand try an error you know this you know this the journey, or like making mistakes, and trying to correct ourselbes, and try to guiding ourselves you know to the you know the haqq, you know the whole process is like a beautiful journey and to something you know Turkey is really like a good country that which you know give us, you know, this opportunity to contemplate you know the what other Muslim what does it mean to be Muslims, and what does it mean to like seek this law.

You talk there about the potential friction that may exist when someone becomes a Muslim in Japan, you became a Muslim 14 years ago so just explain that potential friction, what type of questions and what type of atmosphere was created around you and your family when you became Muslim.

Do you guys… Like personally I didn't encounter like any, like discriminations or like challenges among my like my I know like social immediate group, circle yeah. But, I also but, I heard some stories that you know the when they become when they become Muslim some people you know ask them that oh you because some people saying to them that oh you become a terrorist, or also like in Japanese society you know drinking alcohol is like really important to feel socialized okay, like you know the drinking alcohol means like into showing like love and it's really difficult during turn down your imitation towards like a drinking party yes when you cannot attend you know this Nomikai, I mean like drinking party, that is it really difficult to like make friends, and I hear some stories like that there's something Japanese Muslims who are struggling to I mean the suffering that you know they lose the they lose their inner friends, or like in the relationship they had yes before they became a Muslim and they have to like rebuild themselves. Well, another challenge this I heard from my friends is stuff for example they went like most of them like children try to practice so many Japanese like a cultures like Karate all the Japanese Tea Ceremony, yeah, like in the Muslim like parents or the family they are really afraid that they are engaging with so-called like a non- Muslim like a cultures right or like in the something they call it and then Infidel like cultures. For example, I also encountered like similar like things I think it was like summer like this yes, and I’m wearing a Japanese Kimono like Japanese this, A not Japanese Muslim brother, he didn't have bad intention, but he instantly asked me that why you're wearing the Infidel like a clothes.

In Japan?

Yes, in Japan.

He was a Japanese?

Not Japanese, but still I don't remember his nationality but at the time I was really shocked because I never thought that you know this Japanese cultures or like a clothes or practice is something called like an Infidel like a cultures, yes and the at the time you know I was still like a new Muslim so you know, I was really ashamed of myself yeah that it seems like you know I am the inheritor of this like Infidel like a culture.

So, was there an expectation that you had to dispense or switch all of Japanese culture to become a true Muslim.

Ah, yes like Muslim friends like asked me that you know I need to like be more like a pure like a Muslim but here like usually this the pure means like the like discard like a Japanese culture, and embrace like Arab Islamic cultures right whatever Pakistani or Indonesian like Islamic cultures which is very good and you know they're all like beautiful, yes Islamic cultures yes. But now like 14 years has passed like since I became Muslim yes you know I have started to think that if these meaning that I was born and raised the Japanese and also I chose the new way of Islam and now I become like a Japanese Muslim, like a convert and I read in one article which is written by the Sheikh Umar Farooq Abu Dundaar which is the Islam and cultural imperative, and in the introduction this article he argued that you know Islam itself is like a catalyst, it's like life giving like horse it's like water yeah. So, it has, he only has like a sweet and an inspiring energy and this in the water like Tawheed reflected in the color of the indigenous, like the soil right. So, it means like when Islam is like reached Persia it is deflecting the … Persian in the cultures. And when it reached like a Turkey, that it creates like Anatolian like Islamicate cultures and when it reached the Asian subcontinent like it's like it creates like a Pakistani like Islamic cultures or Bengali, and in Chinese also the same and Africa, so then like why not like a Japanese like Islamicate culture. I'm not talking about like a dogmatics things like Dogma is always the same yeah but yeah. Is but for example when I say about you this Japanese Islamicate cultures like I avoid using like Islamic cultures I always use like Islamicate cultures which I follow in the definition of the, with definition coin by Marshall Hodgson I'm a famous historian yes yeah. In his famous book you know the venture of Islam he historically used clarify the definition of what it means like Islamic and what it means Islamicate and he had according to Marshall Hodgson the Islamic or Islam is only about religion, and religion like Universal Teaching whenever they go is always saying yes. But this Islamicate it's like it's more like a cultural aspect or like a culture which is imagined or invented by Muslim but can be shared by most Muslim and also like a non- Muslim so here like what you describe code my so-called Japanese Islamic cultural like a project I am trying to like design a handicraft or the like a calligraphy or what is the Tea Ceremony or Tea Ceremony projects they all you know I want to create something which is which is strongly inspired by Islamic spirituality but I want to create something which can be like a practice or enjoyed by both Muslim and also a non-Muslim.

So, are you trying to islamize aspects of Japanese culture?

So here that is that I didn't mean to like islamized Japanese cultures I'm trying to find like the beauty of the Japanese the cultures yeah and try to create like new creativities. Here if you know a good example is that this is this is like a Japanese like Tea set yeah which I use like really my Japanese Tea Ceremony yes and this is called Natsume like a Tea container yeah. By the way it's Natsume means Tamar, dates yeah. So, this existence of Natsume this key container shows that you know Japanese culture is like open culture because dates never grow in Japan this is imported like a fruit yeah which came to an island in the area like 13th century 15th century I don't know exactly the date yeah but here for example in this Tea container that in this Tea Ceremony it's Tea master they always like you bring like a different Tea container which reflects you know the beauty of the every season which of now it's summer so I bring the Tea container which shows the, like the beauty of the young leaves and another characteristic: aesthetic, aesthetics of this the Japanese Tea Ceremony is that they're trying to show the beauty of the simplicity yes. I mean this now it is so now this table is not the manifestation of Simplicity it's like even too many toys but yeah but for example usually like they are they prefer to use like this black color but this the black color is represent you know the pure like a heart yeah which removed all the destruction of this Dunya and in during this the Tea Ceremony performance at least the moment the Tea Master carefully like a clean like this dirty container and this is actually like a metaphorical like a performance like when you clean your Tea container actually you're cleaning your heart. Ah, so this is like an aim of that this is happening yeah so this Tea Ceremony is not like a like a superficial like a Starbucks thing so you just need a car yes like sipping coffee for fun like this Tea Ceremony actually spiritual like a training which is practiced by the Japanese like artists, then I call this imagining Japanese Islamic culture as like a semantic process of like semantic reconstruction, it means like when Japanese artists use this Tea container or the performances of policing the Tea container as a metaphor of the queen in the heart yeah. So, we can also bring like a similar like practices in the Islamic cultures and try to like to combine it right so this so based on this idea because I have started to do the design like Islamic container.

So, this has Arabic calligraphy on it.

Oh yes, have you ever visited Bursa?

Yes, I have yes.

Yes, have you visited Osuyami.

Yes.

There are lots of them yeah. I love it yeah and I'm sure you saw this in a calligraphy so yes. This is for this is a full while on a calligraphy and it's some talk Turkish like Dervishes, like Sufi Master yes. They interpret this full wa so tuwa is the the metaphor of the Asma al husna of Allah, the beautiful names of Allah, yes. So, this this so this tu wat u wa is the metaphor of the person who are who are longing for Allah right. So, this is the metaphor like it's Dhikr, like Allah like Allah yes. So all right when we so when we're like organizing this Islamicate Tea Ceremony, the Tea cannot get this polishing, this Tea container and like we can use like a metaphorical performances that you know how Muslims are trying to like a clean their heart by like remembering Allah like Dhikr. So, in this this way like and I'm not like trying to create like an additional like a religious like in the practices towards Islam. Like this is like how the this is it could be like a method to introduce like Islamic as a spirituality to like a known Japanese audiences, and because in Ottoman, in Ottoman times the Ottoman scatter they classify the Ilm, the knowledge into two categories; one is the ilmi Qad and another means the ilmi Har either mean okay, and a Qad is like a cold in a word so it nourishes, which can be conveyed through like words yeah or the argument, and ilmi Har, it's like a knowledge is which cannot be kind of cannot be conveyed through the word. If the noise is really atmosphere would like a spiritual at least right so this is like a Japanese like handicraft yeah it's like a is the like a practice of this like ilmi Har like you don't have to like also like 200 or 300 like volumes like books or you don't have to like you know or like you don't have to like write academic articles or you don't have to organize like a YouTube channels and try to like a debate like among like atheists or something. Like it could be also like in the influencing way but there is like a Hadith which says …. When I observe the Japanese culture like I see like so many like ilmi Har practices right like Japanese like now I'm normally interviewing a program so I'm not really talkative but usually I'm so silent I never talk because I'm Japanese the Japanese are so quiet here yeah and some people think you know Japanese doesn't have any like emotions or heart because they never talk something but actually it's not like we are practicing this ilmi Har. So, during Tea Ceremony is also the same like usually Tea must never talk but they try to like prepare like one cup of Tea with like an utmost care okay yes. And this is the based on this Japanese aesthetics like if we cannot take care of this in one single like cup of Tea but with utmost like focus then you cannot serve others right, you're not gonna serve the loved one because everything should be like equal so this Tea Ceremony is like this like a process of nurturing the spirituality as like engaging with the Candy Crush art or they like ilimi Har yes. Another I'm sorry I'm going off.

No, please.

Another like Tea container I have a design let's go can you read this is also Persian and Turkish means hiç, like nothingness all right have you ever visited like Uzbekado turkesi, it’s in Uskudar I'm sure you haven't visited actually. It’s in the top of a hill in Uskudar yeah. This Sufi Lotus and now it's not used for sufiologist because you know the whole history, yeah. But before the modernization the Ottoman, so this the Uzbeks like traveler usually Dervishes, they stop in this Uzbekere turkesi on the way to the Hajj and when they stay there you know they are practicing the sufi training, what they're using for the education and I have visited this uzbekah Texas I think 11 or 12 years ago uh when I was still undergraduate and when I entered the Sufi there was a calligraphy hanged and hung in the like entrance and they say like hiç and at the time I didn't know Persian and nowhere Turkish I wanted to know Japanese but I asked my lucky Turkish friend like what is the meaning of this calligraphy and he told me the story The hiç which mean nothingness and this nothingness is the purpose of the Sufi training right because he said you know in the modern education we always try to become like a someone or like we're trying to get like a something but in the Sufi training that we all try to become like nothing to clean their heart and to serve like only for our Lord. So, and I and I am really inspired by story like you know that memory is still like a thing is in my heart so that's why I have designed this like a Tea Ceremony a handicraft I called it hiç natsume, I'm working with the non- Muslim like aJapanese traditional Artisan right in Kyoto yes now because now the Japanese have become so modernized and also secularized, so like I think most of the Japanese like if they go to like Ikea you know do you know Ikea yeah yeah because if you're like a believer of the capitalism like in the furniture in our case like reasonable and also it's a real design so there is no like in there is no reason for like a modern Japanese to show respect to the other traditional mechanic craft yeah so that's why now in the Japanese Artisans are like a losing job and really struggling really but that's like a Japanese Muslim for example like which one is like more like Islamicate, like you're buying your furniture and I go into Ikea and buying your Furnitures or like going to like traditional where you can where you know this Japanese traditional original working and also like visiting them and trying to like design like a new like Islamic handicraft to support like a traditional Japanese cultures yes I've seen a lot of them is more like Islamicate because like when I'm designing this Japanese Team container for example I explained history of the ulujami or the Bursa yes and also the history of Ottoman Empire yes and also to the non- Muslim like Japanese artisan I also explained the spirituality of hiç and but every time I told this story they never you know this Japanese Artisan they never show any discriminations and they're really interested in hearing the stories and whatever like some people ask me especially like Muslim like brother and sisters asked me that that what would be like the best like a dawa yes and you know the best way to like Teach Islam to the Japanese audiences yeah but we have to be very careful because like you know

now everybody talks about dawa yeah because but in the same time I feel like a bit Arab, I found with arrogance in my heart because they that this always talking about dawa showing that you know that we are believing that we have the enough authorities or that we are capable enough to like Teach like Islam it's like a non- Muslim audiences but imagine like if the Japanese like even though even though they're already into Islam, that the if the Muslims are trying to Teach Muslim what came to Japan with the attitude that we know something and trying to Teach that this one is like Islamic this one is non-Islamic and this one is halal and this one is haram like people get tired of it because the Japanese are already feeling stressed like 20 people are committing suicide like they're always relieving the pressure, person is living their daily life is a strong pressure and they don't want extra pressure yes so but without design is like we're not this Japanese handicrafts like and when I'm having a discussion with this Japanese artisan and I also think that this is also like example yeah yeah because in this way you know I am able to talk about like Islamic like spiritualities.

Can I, can I ask you a question so your basic thesis is that for Islam to be successful and I I'm sure we'll question what is successful before for Islam to be successful in Japan Muslims cannot afford to present a culture that is distinct from Japanese culture, in fact your argument seems to be that yes we can we can re rework sometimes or add to Japanese culture but when we convey Islam and that conveyance doesn't have to be necessarily through word but when we convey Islam we have to be very mindful of Japanese culture. Is your basic argument that dawah is really impossible, or very difficult in Japan without first rooting it in Japanese culture.

I analyzed the sun often to introduce the Islamic Japanese audiences like I also like believe that this cultural activities will be important with Japanese but also in the same time that Islam can be like exotic yes and also Muslim can be exotic but when you want to like try to introduce Islam the first we have to know that what the Japanese really want to know or what the Japanese are like searching yes and what is the Japanese like a suffering it means that we have to know like a context you could wear like an Arabic clothes where you can speak it or Arabic or you can speak like Persians or you can bring like a Biryani to the you know during the Japanese Society yeah and everything can be exotic but still like it should be introduced in a way that in a Japanese fine some like a comfort when they encounter this lesson yeah because as I said you know now every year like 20 000 people coming to say sorry like 20 000 people like it's huge right and…

So, there's a discontentment in Japanese society.

And I can't really say like a despair, have you ever watched like a squid game in Netflix yes it was videos Squid game?

We have a South Korean…Yes. For our audience we have something from South Korea here.

Yeah, so some people think that this is just like you know the shallow like a superficial or entertaining movie but actually it's not like it's a reflection of the more than like a Korean societies and also like I feel so many like a similar like a problem yeah in Japan.

Lonelines…

Yeah, and like ugly, like a competing and people ought to always try to like condemn or like judge people yeah without knowing the context and you and you remember you know when the player make mistake of playing without immediately they got killed in this quick game right like this is in how the Japanese people feel really. For example what is the most missing in the Contemporary Japanese Society is the culture of the forgiveness or the culture of being showing like empathy; that's why I'm saying like you can bring for example like Biryani to the Japanese Society but you should not bring Biryani to like a council like in the Japanese cultures or like you try to like deny like a Japanese Cuisine like for example if you find like a Japanese who are like. So you can bring this biryani to like a Japanese who are really like suffering with like a loneliness or like or a suffering.

But I'm struggling to understand when you say bring Biryani, of course, traditionally when Muslims want to do dawa they don't bring Biryani, they bring a message a message of hope they bring Quran, they bring Islamic arguments you know or Islamic discussion points. If you're if you live in a society which has a vacuum and it's empty and as you said, there's a lack of forgiveness and a lack of empathy then surely some of the talking points of Islam would really fit within the vacuum that is felt within Japanese Society is that not…Do you understand my point?

Oh yes, I understand but actually this is based on my own experiences for example like you know when I went to Cairo yes like I already lit I already read at least like at least 100 like books about Islam oh you know we have like enough knowledge, but I'm not yet convinced because what I learned from the book and what I see from Egyptian Society is so different like I don't see any like it's so cool like Islamic practices when I when I first came to like a Cairo yes but I also spend the first Ramadan there Ramadan yes and another time when I was in the day daytime, I studied Arabic in the language school yeah and after that you know I'm going back to my like shaka, you know an apartment. And you know about the bawa, you know the gatekeeper in Egypt yeah. So there was like a bawa in my apartment where I was living yeah another time there was already like after maghreb, so when you know this gatekeeper was having his like iftar but he was eating like only like one cucumber like one cucumber and one water well he was living a really decent life yeah but other times I'm still not Muslim but when I came back to the apartment and when this bawa like saw me and I saw him he immediately you know gave he's like a cucumber like a last remaining cucumber like it to me without any hesitation and at that time I convinced that they are the people who are really believing like Islam they will practicing Islam great so this is why I'm talking about this biryani like because some people think that in Islam you know that is Islam can only introduce like a correctly it's really like a worse the first and then you know they will start practices but in my case first I still remember the taste of cucumber like it's not it's not tasty at all if you see this but still yeah you know I never had such a sweet cucumber in my whole life because it contains like a taste of like a sun.

Alhamdulillah.

So, this is why I'm talking about in The Power of like ilimi har in an atmosphere yeah because he put his Dua into this like a cucumber.

Okay, so if so your original discussion was about trying to bring Islam in line with or at least attuned to aspects of traditional or reviving even because maybe the younger population have lost connection with some of these old traditions so Reviving these old traditions but bring in an Islamic veneer to it or an Islamic part to it. But at the same time I find in the west especially amongst British people so I'm talking now from a British experience a lot of non- Muslims they come to Islam because they feel Islamic values, so as you said the atmosphere of Islam, but they feel those Islamic values a not just in observing Islamic texts but through observing Islamic cultures so the very fact that outside of the masajid you have got Muslims who are very close to one another and they hug one another and they very they they're very relatable and they try to share in each other's problems that softens them to Islam or for example our brother here who's from Korea you know he saw the way in which Muslims they view gender worlds and they observe the role of a man and his responsibility and a role of women and how Islam you know builds in a type of structure in society that is in line with your fitrah right. So, these values come from I suppose my question is, for the ordinary Japanese person he was to observe, or she was to observe Islam and Islamic practice and even Muslim cultures wouldn't that endear them towards Islam? Wouldn't that bring them closer to Islam?

I think so, but as I said I think right now the most saying the new Japanese one is like in the spirit of forgiveness, so you don't have to show the full package of Islamic cultures, right. Just show like one like a tiny like a tiny practice of forgiveness that could be like in convincing enough yes with Japanese to embrace Islam. This is what I feel, yeah, but as for going back is the cultural product yeah like as I said if you're just like a believer of the capitalism there's no reason for Japanese to buy like traditional handicraft, but for the Muslim that for the Muslim we have a reason to show respect to the Japanese traditional cultures without now I today you know I wear this situation Japanese clothes.

Kimono.

Yeah, kimono, like I believe like this is so Islamic yet yes it covers like a body line yeah and actually this is more Islamic and like a modern like a suits like Western suits or like a tight like t-shirts and jeans yes, so it means like Muslims have more like a stronger reason to wear this Japanese kimono. And I remember the brother who asked me why I'm wearing like Infidel clothes yeah, but I studied the history with kimono after that and do you do you know that do you know this is like inner like a shirt when we wear the over the kimono okay and the name or name of this kimono is jibban, it's called it's from Arabic oh can you guess which word like juban, juban…

Yes, sorry I'm a bit slow yeah.

So actually, it's originally Arabic clothes.

How does… it explain the etymology, please.

Yes, so in the 14th century 15th century so Japanese Merchant bought jibba from I think the merchant from the Portuguese and they had a connection with the Andaluz so they had they know so they also bring like Muslim clothes yes and there is no strong historic records but in some of the installations that you know Japanese Martian you know they loved the beauty of the jubba so much yeah so they started to wear that is jubba like a kimono and still and this is jubban It's like a Japanese like so is so Japanese translation so when we so when we were in this kimono actually the Japanese are wearing a half Arab and half Japanese cultures.

The Japanese generally understand this? or it's not…

I mean, when they when they Google the jibban

It's on Wikipedia

Yeah, it's on Wikipedia. So, in this way actually when I thought when I'm talking about the Japanese cultures like this Japanese culture is not a pure Japanese culture, this Japanese culture is also like a reflection or like diversity Japanese societies and this Islamic handicrafts are the same, like if you're just like ordinary Japanese like going to Ikea is more like reasonable, operational even yeah but if you have Japanese Muslim and if you really think that in this Tawhid is like a like a life-giving like inspiring or water which really reflects in the color of the indigenous like a cultures like only a Japanese Muslim or like a Muslim have a reason to show respect and reason to revive you know the beauty of the Japanese culture. So, this is why I think I'm not trying to like bring like something new yes to like a Japanese Community you know I'm trying to like help you know the Japanese like Society to remember the true beauty of Japanese culture and also the same way that why I'm doing this like why I'm introducing this Japanese Islamic culture to like a Muslim Community like outside of Japan like in Istanbul or in London yeah or to the American like Muslim communities because now we have like more and more like Islamic like discourse but we have like less and less like Islamicate cultures like now we have sold two we have surrounded like too many like words who are trying to arguing about like in Islam who are trying to like prove the crackness of Islam, but now in this like a modern times that we don't have enough time to contemplate Islam for example the cultures that in the western language I searched some of the dictionaries certainly an opposite word of the you know the culture in the western language is the nature so nature best like a cultures right so that's why when you visited when you visit when we visit like a modern like a garden in Paris or the or the UK you know within the garden good so good thing is like so like artificial and it has like symmetrical pattern because this is how the Western with the Western and the Western philosophy what's the aesthetic thing about this culture it means like using like a manpower to control like always like in nature but when it comes when it comes to the East Asian language I think it's also the same in Korean and also Chinese the opposite word of the culture I mean Bunka is called Buca and both words means trying to Teach the people like Adab, like etiquette trying to like discipline the people but Buca, you know the opposite word of the culture is trying into like discipline people with using the using power and the fear, and Bunka is also they're trying to Teach the etiquette to other people without yielding the power or without using the authorities and an interest like this practice is I believe that this is the this group I believe that this is a true practice of like bunker you know the culture in the East Asian sense yeah without using any like a soft power which is supported by a certain nation state yeah or without using any like authority to try to like improve the correctness of something you know I mean just like giving you know atmosphere the places you know so that the people you can contemplate the real meaning of Islam.

So, do you see yourself as an informal diplomat for Japanese culture.

Oh no, I never thought because like I don't know I don't like the word like a diplomat because…

You know, someone who's part of the soft power drive of the of Japan.

So, the reason why I'm saying is that you know now usually many people. There are so many people who are trying to like prove themselves yes or trying to become like a represented with someone yes. Especially in the YouTube or Tik Tok, you know, there are so many like you know the Muslim brothers and sisters try to convey The Message of Islam yeah. But me myself you know I know my limit I'm still like 33 years old yes and I'm not like a murshid. Like you know I mean I'm not perfect like there is leader or something. Look, yes like I'm designing the oldest culture to introduce the Islamic spirituality to the Japanese audiences and the Muslim audiences but before everything all these handicraft is for me like this is like a method for me to contemplate about Islam right and this is actually the reflection of all my memory example like this calligraphy is the so this art is called a Turkish Mabeline W yes and this one is a Chinese square, okay. So, this is like integration of the Chinese culture yeah and like a Turkish culture and this one this flower is called hyphens …

Hyacinth.

Yes, in Turkish we would call it Sumbul, and I use this I use his hanging scroll in my Japanese Tea Ceremony like a workshop yes because usually in the traditional Japanese Tea Ceremony, the master must always like a you know the hang yeah there's a hanging scroll just one scroll yeah one scroll yeah usually just hanging so this like Chinese character yeah is a quotation from a zang Budhism but it's a like a text box so we call it zango, so this is how in your Tea artists are trying to introduce like exam words right but since I'm Muslim you know I feel very I don't know the awkward when I try always like see these zang words yes. And I was imagining what if that we like Japanese Muslim artists can imagine can create our own like hanging scroll to introduce Islamic spirituality yeah. So, the reason why I put this the picture of the Hyacinth is, do you know the story of Sunbul Efendi, Sunbul Efendi.

This is a Turkish…

Yes, so he is a Turkish, so the story of Sunbul Efendi is a Turkish Sufi master. So, the story is that one day his master asked his students to bring the most beautiful flower in this Dunya to bring the most beautiful flower in the Dunya, and the one should just bring like bring the rose and then, I student bring like a Tulip another bringing like the fancy like beautiful like a flower but only the Sunbul Efendi brought, I'll leave it like…You know, the old you know with the flower, Hyacinth which is about to die and the master got curious and he asked you know the Sunbul Efendi, how come you brought this like a it was like ugly is like a flower and Sunbul Efendi answered. So, I went to, I went to the like a field and I observed it in the flower but the most living flowers they are all like busy with like a longing for Allah like doing the Dhikr of Allah and I didn't harm their life but I found like one like Hyacinth like which it was about to like die. So that's I have I have brought this like a Hyacinth you know to show like the mercy of Allah and this Master of Sunbul Efendi said that “this is exactly the answer that I was waiting” because the actually this was like a test, like he asked new students to bring the most beautiful flower in this Earth but according to the perspective of Allah like everything is beautiful and everything was created in the Eco and what we can do is not choosing which flower is beautiful and which flower is ugly or not judging the which flower is which one is like a more beautiful yes. But bring this like Rahma of Allah, or in in this Dunya to bring to show the equality of the old creation yes like this so when I when I put this like this hanging scroll yeah in my workshop like I am able to like introduce like a story of the Sunbul Efendi to like a Muslim audiences anonymously audiences and right now in Turkey it's quite unfortunate that this ultimate Empire has like so rich it's so beautiful like that's all culture but most of the young generation they don't know much about their own culture their own heritage right and something they feel that you know this like talking about tasawf, so we're talking about Islam is too political or too ideological and sometimes they feel ashamed that you know they are growing up in this like a conservative like a background yes but I I'm encouraging especially like young Turkish like people that like studying about Ottoman culture is cool or like this or this or the studying about the Ottoman science is cool, yes. You know, this Ottoman culture like beautiful yeah and also like it this Ottoman culture is not like fixed the culture which you can bring in like in this whole package with the old man culture everywhere and stay like and it stays like us like a Turkish form like this Ottoman culture itself is also like it's also like water over the Tawhid yes it has like a Turkish like a sense or Turkish like a color one when it reached to like Japan where Korea or any region it also gave like a life-giving energy to like indigenous soil to like to revive not the beauty of all the like a local cultures. For example, that we when I'm showing this like a hanging scroll to the Japanese audiences yeah, I'm not trying to like trying to like proof the beauty of Islamic cultures like I'm just using this as like a vehicle to talk like what would be like a common like spiritual ground like between Japanese culture and it's not an also Islamic.

And so, have you conducted your Tea Ceremony in Japan.

Yes.

So, and you have your own scrolls on the wall which reflected an Islamicate culture.

Oh yes other time I haven't designed this hanging scroll, I just showed in a concept art of hanging scroll, but I organize this Islamic at work Tea Workshop yeah at Tokyo Jammi, and this Tokyo Jammi like is like it's like built by the Turkish like a Diyanet, Ministry Religious Affairs. And in this in this like Islamicate Tea Workshop I saw, so the second generation like a Japanese Muslim and also not Muslim Japanese came and before I organized this Workshop I was really afraid maybe no some Muslims feel uncomfortable and they miss through stronger than me because I mean design is a bit like a bida’a things yes but I'm going to start fighting the most they all you know participants really enjoyed it especially when I emphasize the point that you know that this the tradition this showing respect to the traditional culture is not that just like following the traditional blindly yeah but to try to bring the new creativity to traditional cultures.

How much do young Japanese people today learn about traditional Japanese culture like the Tea Ceremony.

I think so few.

Like so, it's dying out.

Yeah, it might be like less than 30 or 20 % but yet there are so many Japanese… So, actually on this on the ideological aspect the Japanese may look really like atheist and very like a modern yeah…West quite… westernized people, yes. Like people yeah but on a practical level I can create certainly Japanese and really like religious and also showing his practical traditions. For example, like in in Japan not only the big cities but in a small cities where my hometown there's like lots of traditional like a dojo. Okay, you know the Japanese like a martial arts yeah yeah. And this martial arts is developed like through engaging with example and seeing to like coaches right so initially they're still like practicing that that cultural aspect they don't like tradition like a cultures yeah but we encounter the physical the Muslims think that this Kung Fu is just like a Kung Fu Panda thing they're just like for entertaining just like it's more than like sports yeah but if you study about the history of Islam actually there are so many like Kung Fu school which are developed by Hui Muslim Masters really. Hui Muslim martial like artist yeah so it was also like Islamic sports but right now like how many of the Muslim not only in Turkey not only in Japan not only in China, how many Muslim in Ummah know that the school is an Islamic Sport and these in Malaysia the they use Silat like martial arts school yeah Silat it's also martial art yeah. And this Martial Art was developed by Naqshbandi Sufi Masters yeah but how many of Naqshbandis for example in Turkey or in or in the UK they are like they know that's the Islamic is like a martial arts or the they think that this is like the sufi education yeah so I don't know why this topic.

No, so can I can I ask you then back to young people in Japan can you tell me what the extent to which there is a there is Islamic conversion there is there are Muslims in in Japan I mean it's a very big country. How, what percentage of Japanese population are indigenous Muslims.

Indigenous Muslims are so few yeah. So, it is said that 230 000 Muslims that live in Japan right now actually it's a quite huge number yeah already yeah but I think more than 80% or even 90% are foreigners or temporary workers are living in big cities like Tokyo, Fukuoka, Osaka.

So, they're from Indonesia or from Malaysia.

Majority is like a Bengalis, they're from Bangladesh and Pakistan and Indonesians, yes. But right now, we have like we have like second generation like

Muslims and we have like Indonesian Japanese Muslims we are Pakistani Japanese Muslims, like a Bengali Japanese Muslim yes and I really like this so as for the preparation that we are just like 0.01% of hope preparation in Japan like we're just super minorities yes but I really think that this like ethnic diversity is like really beautiful, and I believe it will bring the new creativity yeah to like Japanese societies.

And do this foreign. Again, so your original thesis is that if Islam is to spread in Japan it has to accommodate or it has to in a way be mindful of traditional Japanese culture. This Indonesian or Bengali Muslims who are present, do they exhibit the second generation in particular, Japanese traditional culture or do they have the cultural traits of their forbearers of their forefathers.

I think, so, usually the first generation like they're only like they are following the other culture in the background yeah. And they don't try to get like integrate into the Japanese Society yeah. And the second generation in Japan I see now they are in transitions, so and most of your second generations you know that some of them are really struggling about their identity, but so this is why you know I try to encourage this new second generation like young Japanese Muslims that you know that being born as for example like Pakistani Japanese Muslim is cool being born as a for example Indonesian Japanese Muslim like cool it's like beautiful yes. And this and then they are the one who bring in a new creativity to the Japanese Society for example this Japanese Tea Ceremony, like I am the student of Japanese Ceremony I think this is this this harmony culture is really beautiful but still this culture is in stagnations like then most of these Tea artists they see this culture as like kind of like authorities, which doesn't accept any like alien like element anymore. But if you see the history of Japanese Tea Ceremony, this tradition it's about like openness tradition about I the flexibleness that how much you can embrace the alien culture and try to like integrate within their own context and try to create new. For example, this Natsume means dates, it's not like Japanese fruits yeah and right now many people think with some of these Japanese Tea Ceremony is like Zen culture so that's why I remember you mentioned that you bring Zen to this.

Yeah, maybe I was, the wrong word.

No, it's not okay yeah right now it's correct and now this modern Japanese Tea Ceremony is heavily influenced by Zen Buddhists culture, why because the Zen Buddhists bring the Zen interpretation to this Japanese Tea Ceremony so that's why it became Zen, Zen Buddhism like a culture.

So, by you bringing an Islamic interpretation you've taken away the link to Buddhism.

Oh yes, because if you study the early period of this Japanese Tea Ceremony yeah there was like a Catholic Tea Ceremony too really a Catholic Tea Ceremony like Japanese like Catholic like summarized, they were using this Japanese Tea Ceremony yeah, it's like a big culture introduce like Christianity.

So, that's what you're doing now you're bringing Islam through the Tea Ceremony yes, they would have brought Christianity or Catholicism through the Tea Ceremony yeah.

So, in the end this is just like it this is just a Tea set yeah like we can talk about the so this Tea set is nothing different this is the iPad for example this is it this iPad Islamic or non-Islamic, yeah. But some people say that this is like unislamic because this is by Apple yeah. And with a manifestation the American Empire and this like Tea set and this is not a manifestation that Japanese empire or something this is like just one traditional in a handicraft yeah so in the end like the what is important is that what kind of intention you have and what kind of vocabulary that you use for the people who you access it yeah.

But, I suppose from an Islamic perspective and forgive me I haven't really studied this in a very deep way but from an Islamic perspective my understanding is that of course Islam did not come to replace cultures but certainly Islam would find it problematic to integrate cultures which have very strong roots that come from other religious belief systems and so yes we may accept traditional Arab clothing or we may accept traditional you know Shawal kamis in the Pakistan or Indian context. But certainly you know those things which are linked to Hinduism one would need to reject, so in your in your thinking in your in the way you view Japanese culture very sufficient separation between what you're doing and these other religious belief systems.

So, I am carefully like observing I think Japanese culture yeah but maybe like there are some Japanese like Muslim might or non- Muslim like Japanese might make mistake by like trying by practicing with the impressable practices when trying to create Japanese and culture yeah but in the end we must not forget that this learning Islam is not like a downloading data that's right or just like you know just that that we cannot become Muslim just watching like YouTube like channels or like just like downloading like PDF files or Islamic books yeah for example when we observe this history of Islamization in the world, usually in one region when they become the under the Islamic law of the Islamic empire at least it takes like 300 or 400 years yeah for the citizens living there yeah to in the majority of a citizen will Embrace Islam but it takes at least 300 years or 400 years yeah and in Japan we only have 100 years and but some people they are so impatient you know they want to see the result as soon as possible yes but we have to but one of the important message of you know Islam is Tawakkul like you know Tawakkul in the end and Allah will decide when is the best timing in Japanese society and places best time for the individual yes to like a contemplate and about like Islam with somebody will encounter the case in Indonesia yeah do you know this you know shadow puppet art Indonesia yeah do you know religion of the what is uncle Indonesia so Indonesian people believe that … from outside Indonesia introduced Islam, like a non- Muslim, and is called Sinan Cali Jaggar and he used this shadow puppet right which was like actually the Hindu culture but he used his shadow puppet to Teach Sirat an-Nabawi to like Hindu audiences and maybe if you only see this as this event as an individual event and then you can claim that this Sinan Cali Jaggar like wrongdoing like a Muslim but he is Wali and yeah he's awliyah the Sufi saying and not only the Sufi saying he's also an alim, like an Islamic Scholar. There is a Hikmah that Sinan Cali Jaggar like insTead of like also in the books or insTead of the preaching with the words you know there is a Hikmah that he choose this like a shadow puppet play to Teach Islam to Islam to like Hindi audiences and right now you see the Indonesia, the Indonesia is now the large it has a large Muslim population in the world yes so it means within this 400 years 500 years like this it's obvious the Sinan Cali Jaggar they brought like the best seed to look into the Indonesian like a society and now the Indonesia they're offering the Tafseer with Indonesian languages.

Amazing.

Like one of the best like so like social like institutions yeah and then really big like a Muslim yeah like social like services so now like I think you know the Japanese societies also should experiences the same process. My intention is that I want to make this Islamization process as slow as possible like as slow as possible like not just like one second the 15 seconds like this start Tik Tok things, like I want like I want to give them like enough time yes to like understand like real like beauty of Islam.

Isn't there a danger then that generations will pass who don't get to embrace Islam and ultimately are not do not find salvation from Islam and from Allah SWT.

Oh, in Japanese society?

If it's so slow and it takes a long time yeah.

I think this is what the concept oh this is not patience. But in the end only Allah will say what is the best timing. Like no matter how we try to like Teach Islam like in the end we're just like human being, and without like maybe and also supposed to there was like a Japanese guy that who was like suffering for like loneliness and he was suffering from and who also he decided like to commit suicide but maybe at the time he only saw he saw one I know the beautiful like a Turkish marbling like this or like an Islamic calligraphy and maybe this like calligraphy like bring, brought like a comfort his life and maybe like he gave up in a commit suicide but yet he didn't come Muslim but still like still like if they he decided like live his life and maybe like every time he back from home maybe he was like watching this like a Turkish like a beautiful like a marbling and are we going to like judge him that he that he was not like he and he decided not to become Muslim. Because maybe in his life it's only like this Turkish modeling maybe the only celebration he found in his life and if Muslim judge him that he is like practicing Islam in a really superficial way or like he is like you know strong enough or he's smart enough to become Muslim now what would this man feel the hemophilic extra stress yes and what kind of image that people have in mind so what I would say is that that also they I know that you know I myself is not like in the best version like Muslims or whatever all my culture activities like not the best version with Islamic culture. But I think that the what is the most missing in this contemporary Muslim societies one is Tawakkul and also like Sabr.

Dr Naoki, can I ask you about these books that you've translated I think into Japanese yeah. Please talk us through these.

These, so this is my first book which is probably in Japan this is Japanese translation yes of the Abdur Rahman’s Futuwwa, Islamic chivalry. The English is translated as chivalry, yes. But I have I introduced this Futuwwa as the Islamic like a Bushido like Samurai like a philosophy yes and especially in this Futuwwa is talk about the importance of the altruism you know the and also importance of forgiveness you want to show an empathy and this is what I found in this is missing in container Japanese societies yes, so I thought you know this book would be like a variable for the Japanese readers not only to know about the beauty of Islam, but also only remember Japanese culture.

Great.

This book, I was also part, a member of the Japanese translation of the mukhtasar, this is the average version which is made by Gazali himself or his brother and I was responsible for translating a part.

So, this is the abridged version.

Yes,

Okay this is a complete…

Oh no, this is just the fourth part.

This is… No this is a complete version but we are so surprised that Mukhtasar, abridged version yeah. But it's too big it's big yes it's massive, yeah. It's more than four yeah it's almost like 500 pages okay it's really expensive, so I don't know who's gonna buy it but if you could pay yeah. That's great but this is but even this the translating the Islamic classic into our vertical language is really a beautiful process but this is how we are like reconstructing in a Japanese like a language into like Islamicate it's like a Japanese like a language that sometimes we belong borrow a visually traditional Islamicate Chinese terminology to translate and another one this is not my book, but this book is written by the professor Mujahid Matsayama, and now he's associate professor in the University of Tokyo oh it's a Muslim.

And this is a translation of the al-Aqa’id- Nasafiyya, Japanese translation but you know itself is a really small book just really tiny yes yeah. But so this how much is Mutton we just took…This is the introduction, oh, this this is the Mutton the, original, okay yes. And this is commentary oh so commentary yes it has 400 pages, so it's a three-hundred and it includes like Japanese commentary of al-Aqa’id- Nasafiyya, yes. And this is really important for the other Japanese Muslim to know that just like Japanese Muslim Community is still new and we are in the infant stage, but there are some really productive and amazingly Japanese like Muslim scholar yeah for example the professor Mujahhid is a great example that he was able to write a 300 page documentary about al-Aqa’id- Nasafiyya here and using like more than 10 hundreds of commentary from Shuyyuk, you know in traditional. So it's very like Japanese communities also have like have a new create bringing the new creativity not only to Japanese Society yeah. But also in the Ummah and another book and these days that I'm also translating the Japanese Classics to like a Turkish language right and so this is how I'm trying to introduce like a traditional Japanese culture to the Turkish audiences

This is a book of fiction?

This book almost like no theater play. Do you know no theater, yeah. It's like the player is using like a mask and ready to perform okay, a theater a theater play yes. It's like a traditional like a Japanese version of a Shakespeare I guess right right. But the reason I'm doing this project is that without Istanbul now… No, I think the last five or ten years like we have like many like for example American Muslims and the European Muslim like coming to Istanbul and try to sell it here yes but there's so few, I found that so few of them are trying to work with like a Turkish like a people remember like, I don't know how many people are trying to for example like study Turkish languages or I speak Turkish yeah true like many people live in Istanbul yes but they always like hang out with the other English speakers yes and I felt this is sort of I guess makes me sad it wasn't like a disappointing yes because in the end we live in Istanbul yes and the fact that we are able to live here is like thanks for like a Turkish citizens yeah and also like right now especially academicians or intellectual like we are trying to be we're trying to show ourselves like a global introduction with a global figure but also I'm not judging it actually I'm part of judging it but also it's really important for us like to stay in like a local or like a serve to like a local like audiences yes and not only like introducing the Japanese cultures for example a this army design is a Japanese handicraft which is inspired a Turkish culture it's like this is how I'm trying to show respect to like Turkish cultures and Turkey and also like Turkish like a Citizens yeah it sounds like I found that some foreign say like religiously practicing like a Turkey Citizen and sometimes they're like condemning like a secular academic citizen. But this as I said this is also like the story of Sunbur Efendi, like you know actually every part of the society has its own meaning and in Turkey is also the same, like there is no like present history or unpresent like history in Turkey everybody's like has a meaning yes. And but, and now no especially foreigner live in Istanbul like us we are also now the part of a new history with the Turkey yeah Republic. Whether you whether you believe in the former Nation- State like or not. And remember like some of my students like they complain that you know these like English speaking like Muslims you know they're just like surviving here but they are like living with like with them.

But on that subject, I had Thomas Abdel Qader who spoke to me about migrants, Muslim Western migrants who come to Turkey. There is an impression maybe incorrect amongst non-Turks that Turkish culture is not as open maybe to foreigners as maybe Arab culture is. Now I I'm not sure I'm not sure if that's an over generalization but you are someone from Japan you've been to Egypt you interacted with Egyptian culture do you find that maybe in a way Turkish culture is quite similar in that sense to Japanese culture which is a little bit more you know less, how do I phrase this in a I'm not saying that less embracing is the wrong word but the less embracing maybe of outsiders or less warm to outsiders as maybe Arab culture is I mean is that a or am I over generalizing here.

I think older the people who live in the National states that are racist. And also like they're not open to the different cultures right. But when it comes to the Turkish cultures or the Turkish citizens or like I think with some of the way not only the Turkish culture but when I take an example the Ottoman cultures like. Do you know the Chinese… Oh I should have brought this picture. It’s like a traditional pattern which were used in the like …which has like a three like a circle and now the many people many Turkish people think that this is like a Turkish art but that pattern is not Turkish it's come from like a Buddhist art and this is like a three like a circle represent like a special like stone like which used by like a like a divine or a special human being which you believe in believe in Buddhism to show the like it's the magnificence of like a divine like a being and some of the Turkish artists like they like this pattern so they observe into like a Turkish art and so like some people may feel the Turkish people might not be open to different cultures and there are some Turkish people who are acting like that but in the end I can say that this is just because that we are behaving that way so this is a reflection of our behavior yes. So, if I can behave like openly the Turkish people are really open they are really like the guest, you know they're like they like to know the different cultures yeah. And you know, like for example like if you want that, if you want to know that we like the Turkish people are really open or not like. You have to study in a modern wa to say Marhaba or nasisilniz, tessekur ederim, like you have to study Turkish in really deep sense yes and you have to make a really deep discussion with the Turkish students yeah and maybe there are some uncomfortable like Turkish like uncles who would be who would try to like alienate us yeah. But now, I'm working in a university in Turkey yes and I know and I know many Turkish young people and they are like creative and they are very open to the different cultures, and also, especially in Istanbul and there are so many like an African students and Arab students and Pakistani students they all gonna come into Turkey and study in Istanbul and if they are not that open then however what is this reality and in the end like we also live in Istanbul and we are not stones and during the COVID actually there wasn't unpleasant even too like you know people thinking I'm Chinese and there's some people that call me they're going back to their own country yeah but again like we all started not everyone is so strong enough to embrace the diversities yes or face yeah like challenges in this Dunya so right now in Turkey you know they're all facing many people they are facing like economic like challenges and also, you know, they are not in the whole life you know they're having like political like instabilities and sometimes they are not good at explaining their emotions yeah in the correct words yes and in the end they also like human being but I but I've seen in this Turkish people is like a warm and most welcoming like a citizen and comparing any society at least from Japanese, and they are more open like you don't know how you don't you don't know how racist Japanese are yeah. So, and all these new handicraft that I designed this like Natusmes and other like digital art or like this futuwwa like a logo design yeah. This is you know a reflection of my re beautiful memory you know when I engaged with like in my Turkish like a student. So, my answer is that if you're thinking like Turkish are not open that it's just a reflection that are not open, yes.

Now that's I think that's a very good point and do you see yourself Dr Naoki, do you see yourself to be someone who's going to remain in Turkey for the foreseeable future or do you wish to return back to Japan.

Oh me myself?

Yeah.

I also do talk on this issues but as for myself, example do you know convenience store in Japan yeah I like Japanese convenience store where you can buy everything yes you can buy like rice ball, you can read like shown in Manga comic books there yeah and you can buy like a traditional Japanese suite and also you can pay your own bills in a convenience store you can do everything okay it's so convenient store like that's right yes. I miss convenience store when I was in Istanbul yeah but this is just my joke yeah when I think about them in Japanese Muslim Community, I think it's really important for someone who had a connection outside of Japan because if I know that you know the strong Islamophobia will come in a very near future in Japanese Society because I already see some kind of because for example when I when I my new book will come out in August inshallah and I always and every day I'm checking Amazon ranking because I'm really scaried if my book you know…But and usually in the top three are like it's like all the books which is based on read like in a serious like discrimination against like Islam really that book is saying that you know the Quran is like Teaching to like a kill like infidels so that's why you know when the Muslim come to Japan this is exactly what's going to happen and it's like it's like a best seller in Japan, best seller right. And, right now we don't have like strong influence of this book but I think within a 10 or 10 years that we're gonna see the result we're gonna face the consequences and at that time but as I said right now in Japan we have so many like second generation Muslims and we even have third generation Muslim and this and not only the Japanese convert we have like Pakistani-Japanese, Indonesian-Japanese, Egyptian-Japanese, and they are all Japanese you know they are all our system brothers and they're also like Japanese citizens yes but maybe like it might be too difficult for us to not to survive in Japanese Society then also like other like brothers and sisters we may also have to like choose to like make Hijra, really, to like other Muslim countries yes but at the time but even things…

But even for someone who is born in Japan, you may contemplate it and maybe for people who are converts to Islam may find it so inhospitable they may need to leave.

Right now we don't see any like difficulties but in the future yeah in the future like maybe I am also considered as like civilization like a traitor, wow. So, the so I think it followed them you know to prepare for that time like someone should be like live in the Muslim country yeah to keep the connection with other Ummah, so that you know this Japanese Muslim don't feel like loneliness or don't like lose the hope because this is why I'm encouraging the other like some of my Japanese like Muslim brother and sister to come to Istanbul oh because here not only like surviving as a Muslim but in your weekend like you study some things and every day you go on the street you can study history of the Ottoman Empire, and also you can study like a classical Arabic, and you can also study Qalam, and Fiqh and Tasawuf yes. Then these things doesn't exist in Japan it is really great opportunities.

And am I right in saying that unlike say China, China has a long history with Islam and you know there was a period where you had Chinese people during in the Ming Dynasty who converted to Islam. Japanese relationship with Islam is not that long, why is that is that because Japanese culture historically was very isolationist and it had a period where it's until European colonialism that it's it stayed away from the world, why didn't Islam because Indonesia is not so far away, why didn't Islam come to Japan earlier on.

Well, yeah, we have a fine answer. But I think the biggest factor is that you know this Edo Shogunate like a government they practice this isolation policy yes for 300 years, 300 years; from the 16th century to the 19th century yeah I think that was a huge impact.

So, what was the implication of his isolationist policy.

This isolationalist policies like the the Shogunate, they profited the foreigner yeah so they only have like a limited like an interaction with the foreigners they only they only allowed to stay in the small like a district in like in Nagasaki and other cities okay. So I think this is about one of the biggest reason why Islam hadn't like reach to the Japan yeah.

Alhamdulillah, okay well you know. I think we've had a very interesting discussion today so do you see Japanese Islam growing in the next few years is that is that your know with all of what you've said about how this will be a slow process but do you see that Islam will grow organically in Japanese Society?

Oh yes inshallah but another important thing is that it's not Islam like Muslim will grow and the Muslim group practicing Islam will grow yes the number of the Muslim group practices Islam will grow in Japanese Society because Islam cannot be like a fire in this sentence because Islam is just like a Deen yes but what we see in this Dunya is that people who are believe in Islam yes but in it but on this issue I'm quite very optimistic because like whenever I visited you know I go back to the Japan yeah I see the new Muslim there in Tokyo Jammiah like every week we have like a new Muslim like a convert no way and also in the second generation they are so creative and they're really cool yeah like they cooler than us yes like look at look at our uncles like you know we are losing our energy.

So, this is the second this is a Bengali second generation.

Yeah, Bengali-Japanese, Pakistani- Japanese, Indonesian-Japanese. I mean there's really cool like Indonesian- Japanese guy yeah who's leading the Jammiah Muslim Club. So this young Muslim guy is also many like not non- Muslim Japanese who are interested in Islam is also joining yeah and now and also I know sound like Pakistani like Japanese who are studying the other countries and who are trying to like try to help in uniting the next Generations. But what an important things for us is that eventually like we Muslims I'm sure we become the majority of this Dunya but to be majority is not important the important thing is that how much like we are working not only for ourselves but working for the others. You know, how much that we can be like in manifestation of you know altruism is right. So in this sense no the I really hope that I can also like a vehicle to like investing on the like next generations and not showing myself is like the best version of like something or like in representatives or ambassador or some things yes now I want to serve to like a Japanese use I know. So, that you know they can feel especially the Japanese Muslim that they can feel that you know that they are like blessed and also like a loved not only by Allah, but also like Muslim brother and sisters. So, that they feel lonely yeah but also in the same time like that we need to work for like the Ummah and especially if you live in Istanbul you know we need to study we need to stay in local like I know like living in different countries it's not like easy things like there are other and the me too like every time I work in Istanbul, you know I feel some of the really new challenges but still you know they are I love turkey and I love Turkish citizens and I'm not a big like believer in the nation-state, but as a human being I love these people and yes before like before I get judging them or the complaining them with a really like shadow like a comment or perspective like first we need to try ourselves we need to push ourselves do we know about their context and over history we're starting and try to become like one Ummah for example like one of one of the biggest challenges that we facing in the Muslim Academia is that we all we all try to studying Arabic because of course because it's sacred languages it's a language of Islam but after that you know either they only speak English or Arabic or if they have like a different ethnic background they only know they only know this thing ethnic learning languages to talk to their parents or their families they usually they only know three languages yes but for me like English and Arabic and Turkish it has nothing to do with me like I can live like originally like happy Japanese like without learning English or Arabic or Turkish and especially this Turkish like when I come to Turkey I might take is Turkish really horrible and my and with the people in the street they always they'll they will always make fun of me that I'm speaking Turkish it means like broken yes like horrible Turkish yes but still I push myself to study, Turkish why because I love you know spending time with the Turkish citizens so it's really different so my what I want to say is that we need to show love to other people and also we need to be like self-confident you mean that we keep yourself confident enough to expand our own like a world and now I read in like Jujutsu Kaisen, do you know Jujutsu Kaisen manga, okay. It is different topic it takes another one or two or three but there is a magical called demand expansion so this is how so each of the sorcerer this sorcerer is like reflecting their own reality to the different world yes but this is what the Muslim must to do like you know in this art or engaging with people like we all need to understand who we are and try to like connect ourselves to the to the others to create like to bring the new creativity to the Muslim Society.

Dr Naoki, JazzakAllah khayr, thank you very much for your time today.

Oh, thank you very much actually I bring so many toys we'll take some pictures of them.

Okay thank you very much.

In fact I'm fascinated by this fan before we go can you …

Can I explain, yes please. This one is the this one is the Chinese Islamic handicraft series yes which I saw in my project yeah can you can you see this Chinese character yes so this is actually classical Chinese Islamic poem written in 18th century right by the Chinese Muslim scholar called Lucy wow okay and yeah and I have a designist fan because there are some like articles that works which introduced in the life or the thought of like Lucy yes but people who are already interested in the topic will buy books or read the articles but when I show this when I always carry this fan you know I can introduce the Islamic Heritage in China yes to not only the Muslim audiences but also non- Muslim audiences like in Japan yeah and I think this design is really cool yeah this is so asianist like a handicraft yeah. but the spirituality is based on Islam.

Where can I get one of these, you can buy from me.

Yeah, I would love to.

I have some samples in here it's in Japan but you can bring yeah.

JazzakAllah Khayr, thank you very much for your time.

Thank you very much.

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