Ep 179. - Gaza: Is International Law a Waste of Time? With Francesca Albanese
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Should we, people who remain married to justice, accept that international law, if it ever did work, is today defunct? In a broader sense, when we pursue its application are we in danger of creating a sense of false hope. These are the existential questions we are now asking ourselves as the genocide proceeds at pace into its 2nd year. My guest today is Francesca Albanese, an international lawyer who has been in the eye of the storm, speaking truth at the highest levels. Francesca specialises in international humanitarian law and is the special rapporteur for the UN reporting on Palestine.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
Palestine is a test for Humanity Gaza has been destroyed they have entrapped
0:07
and cired starved killed maimed tortured are you more or less hopeful about International
0:14
Justice there are double standards and now they're fully exposed David lamier foreign secretary was asked in Parliament a question about whether he would describe Gaza
0:24
to be a genocide David Lamy is not the only genocide denier what constitutes genocide is
0:30
established Arab states should be the first in complying with international law when it comes to Palestine there are countries who maintain economic ties diplomatic ties
0:41
but especially military and financial ties with Israel what happens to me have been so
0:47
many the slaughtering Gaza progresses in a haze of Silence ESS has colluded with Israel to provide
0:56
military assistance political legitimacy diploma cover and Financial Resources Gaza is a perfect
1:03
murder scene a graveyard not only of tens of thousands of children but a graveyard of a
1:09
defunct order that has been exposed as nothing but an empty set of rules to beat opponents
1:15
and protect friends from prosecution should we people who remain married to Justice accept that
1:22
international law if it ever did work is today defunct in a broader sense when we pursue its
1:29
applic ation are we in danger of creating a sense of false hope these are the existential questions
1:36
we are now asking ourselves as the genocide proceeds at PACE into its second years my guest
1:42
today is Franchesca albeni an international lawyer who has been in the eye of the storm
1:48
speaking Truth at the highest levels Franchesca specializes in international humanitarian law and
1:55
is the special repur for the UN reporting on Palestine Franchesca welcome to the thinking
2:01
Muslim thank you so much well it's lovely to have you with us now Franchesca 13 months of Slaughter
2:08
isn't it time to accept that international law is obsolete before I answer that let me I was
2:13
listening to you and there are a few a few words that caught my attention and I I wouldn't agree
2:22
with the framing please we are not into 303 months of Silence around genocide it's silencing because
2:33
the the world is in turmoil all Western countries have seen protests for 30 months and arrest and
2:42
detention and repression toward protesters um not because of violence I'm not saying that there were
2:51
no violent acts occasionally committed but the protests have largely been peaceful and there
2:58
has been silence and there's been silencing and through smear uh and attacks of voices who have
3:06
tried to stand against this to call attention to point at the way forward and here we go to the to
3:15
the allegedly defun uh international law system I do not think that international law is the problem
Is international law the problem?
3:26
per se yeah we have a set of norms and mechanisms to prevent to stop and punish crimes all the more
3:36
a crime as Insidious as vicious as genocide but is not working and to be honest it does not worked
3:45
in previous instances like um in the case of of Rwanda or Bosnia but there have been other cases
3:57
like in Central America we tend not to see are so Western centered that we do not see that in fact
4:03
genocide in as much as is aor is not an exception why so because the system doesn't doesn't respond
4:12
so the problem is to be is to be uh found is and the system is to be interrogated in what is
4:21
deficient is what is not functioning in it is the there is an inner discrimination and bias
4:31
and Western countries are somewhat responsible for it there are double standards and now they
4:39
are fully exposed and I think it was May that the IC um prosecutor Chief prosecutor Kareem Khan
4:47
issued an application for arrest um uh to the uh to the court uh yet months later we haven't
4:55
yet had a decision from the court and I think I remember Russia and Ukraine uh the decisions that
5:03
came from the IC were fairly rapid what accounts then for for the the lack of of attention to what
ICC ruling, why the delayed decision?
5:10
is a genocide I think you're right in a sense for for Russia the indictment came I think within 11
5:22
months uh from the announcement of the opening of the investigation yes Palestine it has going on
5:31
forever and the investigation is now three three year old but only after October 7 the prosecutor
5:42
really uh accelerated its uh its office capacity to investigate and collect evidence so this is
5:51
already a sign that something was not working yeah but yet after May the international court has come
5:58
under increasing pressure attacks smear threats from go governments like the Us and other powerful
6:08
organizations is not easy it's not easy to work in this uh toxic environment and clearly Justice is
6:16
uh is hijacked on the way you know retributive Justice can be delivered through various means
6:25
and channels and while the international criminal court is the International Mech
6:30
mechanisms supposed to uh to deliver that kind of Justice to to to deliver accountability this
6:40
is not the only one there are international there are sorry domestic courts uh who have which have
6:46
Universal jurisdiction so actions against alleged perpetrators of genocide could be initiated in
6:55
this country as well why doesn't it happen yeah um well I mean arguably the icj has moved at a
7:02
slightly more faster Pace there was that interim judgment which uh suggested that there may be a
How effective are the ICJ judgements ?
7:09
plausible genocide uh as well as judgments on the occupied territories in the West Bank yet without
7:15
the backing of the International Community it's fairly clear that those judgments are not really
7:21
going to take have much of an effect I mean is that a is that a fair reading of of where the icj is well the icj has issued three sets of provisional measures and had those measures been
7:35
um complied with we would have seen the end of what the court has recognized being a plausible
7:42
genocide yes or being plausibly a genocide uh and it has not been uh acted upon I the court will is
7:56
is currently investigated investigating whether is a state responsibility for genocide and may
8:02
it might take years this is not just because uh the the it's in it's difficult to to establish
8:09
genocidal intent at the state level it's also because the court has different cases to deal
8:16
with yeah um but at the same time the genocide convention sets three obligations to prevent stop
8:25
and punish genocide and the trigger is when there is an indication that genocide might be committed
8:34
when there is genocidal incitement incitement to genocide is a crime in and of itself so this is
8:42
the signal and the court in January this year found that where Israeli leaders in named them
8:49
Israeli leaders who had incited to commit Act of genocide they should have been investigated right
8:56
and this could have already had a deterrent effect unfortunately nothing has moved at the political
9:04
level arms have continued to flow into Israel and member states have even found creating creative
9:12
ways to circumnavigate the the legal obstacles the PO potential judicial scrutiny and National
9:20
level uh investing in indirect transfer so you see what we are facing now is the system in its
9:30
pure form it's not that men especially Western States western states political elites with a
9:39
few exceptions are standing with Israel as it commits genocide because there is a cohesion or a
9:47
convergence of Interest this is the system we are facing so it's not that the system is not working
9:53
the system is working to protect certain interests and in the way not only they are slaughtering the
Who is the system working for?
9:59
Palestinians not only they are um Paving the way toward the burial of the international
10:06
order but they are also crashing fundamental freedoms within their own States in order to
10:16
silence the solidarity with the Palestinians the solidarity to stop a genocide this is paradoxical
10:24
because we have had genocides before but never there has been this apology of the crime at the
10:31
international level politicians and media alike have been working together for that never we have
10:38
had such a resistance such an opposition um such a Revolution Brewing really around the globe to
10:47
stop it and seeing it silence is also a sign that the system is turning less and less liberal toward
10:54
their its own constituencies in the west I suppose what I'm trying to work out is where you are
11:00
more or less hopeful about International Justice working um and I think you've written forgive me
Is Francesca hopeful about international justice?
11:06
if I've if I'm mistaken here but you've you've now published five reports at the United Nations two
11:12
of which document genocide I mean since your first report from the first report to now are you more
11:19
or less hopeful about International Justice not sure hopeful is the right term I'd say motivated
11:28
and anxious to see it work because I do think that we do not have many peaceful tools to take us out
11:37
of here and I want to see it work because again human rights have are somewhat the codification of
11:50
civil struggles um against slavery against aparte for recognition of farmer rights food sovereign
11:59
indigenous rights gender gender equality I mean it's it's a a continuous struggle yes but we
12:09
build on each struggle and we become stronger this is the challenge now we need to be able to
12:16
see that in what what is at risk in Palestine Palestine is a test for Humanity versus like
12:26
permanent War a state of War between the system and the people therefore if we all take part to
12:35
this and become like a bigger movement building on the intersectionality of the struggles also
12:42
understanding how fragile we are in our societies we we we struggle standing in solidarity with one
12:50
another because we the system is such that we risk our job we risk um our reputation and it's
12:58
very difficult breaks these barriers but I wonder if this is not the moment to do that because we
13:04
have been fragilized enough so yeah this is where I'm hopeful it's not I'm hopeful that people we
13:15
realize what we are standing against and we use the the tools we have to make it happen
13:23
there seems to be a reluctance certainly in the west to use the word genocide whether that's in the media and certainly in in political circles um you may have seen a few weeks back David Lamy
David Lammy and the definition of genocide
13:33
our foreign secretary was asked in Parliament a question about whether he would describe um
13:39
Gaza to be a genocide and he said the scale of the of the killings was nowhere near a genocide
13:46
so he dismissed it outright um like how how is genocide defined and how would you respond to
13:52
to lamb excuse me I I can't believe that he's a lawyer isn't he yes a human right lawyer all
14:02
right I'm surprised I'm surprised because the first inting the first instinct of a lawyer
14:09
would be to look at the legal documents the Juris prudence and probably deid Lamy has to
14:18
explain to the public where did he read that is the number of people killed who Define genocide
14:24
probably David Lamy should read article 2.4 of the genocide convention which refers to an act
14:31
of genocide that doesn't even involve the killing of one person or the fifth I mean there there is
14:38
genocide through through forceful transfer of of children and this is how the genocide
14:45
in Australia has been mainly perpetrated and including in Canada so this is this is why I
14:53
insist on the cular colonial framework while David Lamy is not the only genocide denier it I think
15:02
that it's particularly serious when it comes from someone who has a position of authority who's who
15:08
has who carries an an an even greater Authority because he's a man of law but excuse me what
15:17
constitut genocide is established by article two of the genocide convention not personal opinions
15:23
and it's the intent the determination to destroy a group in all in part through several what even one
15:31
only of these acts killing infliction of severe bodly or mental harm and Creations of conditions
15:38
of Life uh which would bring about the destruction of the group and look at Gaza today Gaza has been
15:47
destroyed most of the Civil infrastruct civilian infrastructure arable land all universities the
15:55
the the the Civil registry uh thetion archive the historical and religious cultural heritage of that
16:05
place the medical infrastructure all universities or all schools how does David Lamy call this is it
16:12
a war I'm very concerned because this is not a war if this is a war we are entering a new
16:18
stage where War doesn't respect anything that has to do with civilian life and this is to be
16:26
pushed back so whatever whatever ignorance exists there it can be it can be uh resolved with a good
16:35
reading of what genocide is and how it has been uh commented on uh and developed as a concept
16:42
through International jurist Prudence can I ask you about the reluctance in the west generally to
16:48
call out Israel and now you've spoken to this in in in previous answers but of course maybe
The reluctance of the West to call this a genocide
16:54
one can accept that the Americans are very wedded to a pro-israel policy and maybe some elements of
17:00
European policies very much linked to Israel but you have institutions like the EU ort of underline
17:06
comes to mind the president of the European Council who has been a staunch unflinching U
17:11
supporter of of Israel regardless of what what it does like what account but European Union is
17:17
known in the textbooks as the the the liberal the symbolic liberal institution that cherishes the
17:23
concept of Human Rights so what's gone wrong in these International bodies not sure I'm the best
17:30
person to answer that question but because I do look at things from a legal perspective and I see
17:39
I don't know why they are doing that but in the process they are crushing fundamental freedoms
17:45
as I was say right um the what what officials like Osa lion are showing is is that the system
18:00
is at the service of political interests more than legal claims than more than fundamental
18:07
rights it applies to the Palestinians who by the way even before the last 13 months were
18:14
were oppressed they couldn't enjoy the right of self-determination where were these people who so
18:21
were so uh stonely in line with Israel even at the time it's committing side exactly there they have
18:30
been enabling the in Israel's impunity they have been enabling for decades the dispossession the
18:38
devastation of Palestinians Collective life inch by inch the take the take of home by home piece
18:45
of land after piece of land so it's a Continuum it shouldn't shock us but the thing that is new
18:53
is how fiercely the system is turning against European citizens in Germany in France in in
19:01
Italy pretty much everywhere so that no one can after criticism or can actively mobilize against
19:10
against the genocide and the oppression of the Palestinian people yeah I listen to a really good interview I think with Chris Hedges where you suggested that um Israel has the capacity
19:22
or you suggested that genocide was dormant within Israel and it's somewhat been a awakened by Rec
19:28
Rec events um like are you suggesting that in in a sense October the 7th was an excuse to conduct
Is October 7th a catalyst for ethnic cleansing?
19:36
or to to hurry or to accelerate this policy of of the ethnic cleansing I wouldn't use the the term
19:43
excuse but certainly he provided an opportunity and when we look at genocidal a settler Colonial
19:52
genocidal history this is what happens there are this is why the settler colal framing is
19:59
so important explain that to me and I understand that for for some for for for Jewish people who
20:07
do not see what we what we are seeing this is an extremely loaded and painful term but let's
20:14
just look at what is happening in the occupied Palestinian territory meaning the land the little
20:21
that remains of the land that was Palestine until 1948 yeah uh and of course there is there is a
20:30
history before this but however just if we look at that land which is occupied and has occupied since
20:38
1967 there were limits to what Israel couldn't could do in that land Israel as of 1967 has been
20:50
an occupying power hence an administrator of the land instead Israel started to uh uh manipulate
21:00
the local legal system to um demote the local institutions to take the land to push out the
21:10
Palestinians from that land and uh to build settlements colonies for Jewish Israeli only or
21:20
yeah people coming from all over the world as long as you you are Jew you can you are a Jew Jewish
21:25
person you can enter you can leave in Israel and including including in the colonies colonies
21:32
after colonies uh now 800,000 Israelis live in the occupied Palestine territory this is a crime per
21:41
se and over time the repression of the Palestinian has become impossible all almost 1 million people
21:50
had been 1 million palestin including children as young as 12 had been arrested and detained over 57
21:58
years years of uh of um uh occupation during which Israel has established why it's called aarid as
22:07
established and a dual legal system so there was civil law for the Israelis isra and martial law
22:15
for the Palestinians uh military orders written by soldiers enforced by soldiers reviewed IM military
22:22
Court by soldiers for 57 years Palestinians even children have been facing crimin um military
22:32
courts martial law this is an aberration and if you look at the legal regime that applies I
22:39
mean the the Palestinians are a security threat within this system so the situation was already
22:46
bad before October 7 and why so because Israel has steadily try to take as much land as possible by
22:56
pushing Palestinians into to these confinement Zone like reserves of bant toan people call it
23:03
different way the a a area a zones I look there are different views on what happened on October
23:12
7 but the thing is the violence of that day which was brutal for the Israelis but that brutality was
23:21
also uh there were Fabrications attached to it like the beheading of 40 babies the mass rape
23:30
and other horror stories that have been circulated which frankly I found somewhat disrespectful and
23:38
belittling uh toward the the Israeli victims themselves I mean is it is it less Grievous
23:45
what they endured without this Barbarian Fabrications no but it tells the story and
23:53
this is why we go to settler colonialism of the narrative of this the superior civilization which
24:03
is facing the barbarians so this is why October 7 building on the rage on the frustration and
24:12
on Decades of dehumanization of the Palestinians because one need to read how Palestinians are uh
24:19
discussed in Israeli textbooks and it's it's very dehumanizing so this was The Toxic mix that made
24:29
the the the the a social a social consensus uh behind what the Israeli politicians were doing so
24:41
I don't think Israel had the excuse Israel had the opportunity to escalate the violence and I've seen
24:49
it from the very beginning it was leading toward ethnic cleansing but meanwhile they have committed
24:56
acts of genocide they have and trapped and circled starved uh killed maimed uh tortured raped not
25:07
only the Palestinians in Gaza but the same acts of violence have metas expanded beyond the borders of
25:16
Gaza and are ENT trapping people in the West Bank so this is why I say we need to see that there is
25:23
a destructive intent and is set I mean it's it's expressed verbalized by the by the Israeli leaders
25:30
toward the pal the totality of the Palestinians in the totality of the land and this is why we need to capture the genocidal intent in the totality of conducts and crimes that are committed the
25:41
sector of colonial genocide is this taking off the land taking off the resources pushing out
25:50
the people so there is a dormant Gene which is genocidal in in settler colonialism and it explod
25:59
when there is resistance from the indigenous people you argued recently at the United Nations
Can Israel be isolated by the UN?
26:04
that uh Israel should be isolated internationally for what it's done and what it's continuing to do
26:10
in in in Gaza um in the absence of support from the West I mean how can this be realized first of
26:17
all let me let me explain why I I recommended the United Nations to to suspend Israel's credentials
26:27
as a member of the United Nations now I I'm aware that Israel is not the only country who has a
26:36
Napoleon human rights record although we have to con the fact that this this year after 57 years
26:45
of unlawful occupation of a people who's not made of Israel's citizens these are people who can't
26:51
even vote who do not have rights but this year Israel has as sort of lost old restraints and
27:01
the violations of international law have become of the extreme however there is something that
27:07
is really unprecedented that signals a tragedy within the tragedy this year Israel has targeted
27:13
the United Nations like no other state ever no other state before in fact it has uh bombed and
27:22
or attacked uh damaged or destroyed 70% of the un infrastructure in the Gaza Strip it has killed 237
27:34
un staff members it has attacked uh Palestinians as they were sheltered by the UN either in its
27:44
premises or as they were gathering uh for health care and uh food distribution it has destroyed the
27:53
UN distribution lines it has attacked un convoys uh carrying essential supplies it has hampered
28:01
the UN humanitarian function from vaccination to provision of again and basic forms of of
28:10
protection to the Palestinians in Gaza on top of it it has also launched a smear campaign against
28:19
the UN General Assembly international criminal court uh the Human Rights Council the Secretary
28:25
General has been pnged myself and of course it has taken action against causing much reputational
28:33
damage to a number of un independent experts like myself I'm not the only one I'm the most visible
28:39
one but there are 30 independent experts who have spoken out against Israel's genocide and they are
28:45
being targeted on top of it Israel has recently in its attack against Lebanon it has also hit
28:54
and continues to EIT the peacekeepers and on top of it it has also passed a law which banss
29:00
prevents a un organization to work in the occupied Palestinian territory Andra the this is an act of
29:07
the parliament because other un organizations had been kicked out more easily like the office of
29:12
the High Commissioner I commissioner for human rights three years ago so you see this is not
29:17
a normal State this is not normal violations by a state this is an assault on the UN which needs to
29:24
be dealt with accordingly can I turn to the Arab countries also at that meeting uh at the United
Arab and Muslim countries lack of solidarity
29:31
Nations you said that many of the Arab and Muslim countries are not showing sufficient solidarity
29:37
towards the Palestinians um what do you mean by that what do you expect uh these countries which
29:43
I agree with by the way they they haven't sown very much solidarity at all but what should we expect from them when I talk about solidarity I use the term that resonates very strongly across
29:55
the Arab world yeah because there has always been since the beginning of of since even
30:01
before the Naka there has been solidarity with the Palestinian Palestinian brothers and sister
30:08
but as I wrote in my book uh a few years ago about Palestinian refugees in international law and I've
30:16
looked at how Arab countries among others have have interacted with the question of Palestine
30:24
through the prism of Palestinian refugees of the Palestinians displ around the world and those who who have who are still in the region or have been kicked out of the region I call it
30:36
an unsettling solidarity this is the relationship but that Arab countries have traditionally Arab
30:42
states Arab authorities because I think that this is the the the the difference between the
30:48
people and the rulers is the is of the extreme and Arab rulers have often been ambiguous or
30:59
um not very supportive of the Palestinian struggle of the question of Palestine and how do I think
31:07
this needing correction Arab states should um be the first in complying with international
31:15
law when it comes to Palestine so there are Arab countries who are members of or our parties to
31:23
the Rome statute why they do not Lodge uh a file they don't make submissions to the IC on Palestine
31:34
the arguments that are made are insignificant substantially they and again they shows they
31:40
show that there is no interest in pursuing uh accountability worse than that there are countries
31:50
who still maintain apart from the normalizers yes this is something that could have used to advance
31:57
human rights for the Palestinians and uses not uh but there are countries who maintain economic ties
32:04
diplomatic ties uh but especially military and financial ties with Israel which are incredibly
32:13
detrimental to the Palestinians and also to their own societies the two things go hand inand because
32:20
it's not just about what Israel produces in terms of military service surveillance services that
32:28
are experimented on the body individual and Collective body of the Palestinian but it's
32:35
also what Israel sells to these countries that then become tools to repress local constituencies
32:44
this is the the cycle that we need to we need to break and I hope to see because there are I mean
32:51
it's not that the Arab country Arab region is a monolith there are countries who have steadily
32:58
been against the the system they have been outspoken now a number of those who are more
33:04
outspoken have been silenced I mean also because they have their own trouble Iraq Syria and and
33:10
and Libya Libya is still Libya is one of the countries who have joined um the South Africa
33:18
in the icj proceeding but many more needs to do that but it's again I think that it's important
33:25
to be honest once for all and decide which stands to take it's either or it's either with or against
33:36
this we are at this breaking point when I I came across I met Nell pandor Dr pandor on the weekend
33:43
and she's a a brave campaigner of course uh he was instrumental in lodging that complaint to the icj
How successful can the ICJ complaint be?
33:50
but how much uh how in your mind how successful do you think that icj complaint will will will be
33:58
since major major countries in particular Arab countries haven't really signed up to to that
34:04
no I think it's problematic because what made the success of the icj advisory opinion uh which which
34:13
determined which concluded that the occupation Israel maintains in Gaza the West Bank and his
34:20
Jerusalem is unlawful and to be undone totally and unconditionally as rapidly as possible and
34:25
the general assembly has said by by September 2025 what was I think that the fact that these
34:35
icj advisory opinion turned so radically uh revolutionary in terms of it it's it's broad
34:44
it's a watershed decision that covers the history that tackles all the critical issues that deliver
34:52
M delivers much more than was expected including in pointing out the responsibilities of all
34:58
member States including private organizations and international organizations what made it possible
35:05
was the the fact that it was a huge participation of the International Community there were 60 sub
35:10
missions made and this is probably the most uh watched and on the streamlined cases of the
35:18
icj I mean there were so many people connect and connected watching the thing is that the
35:26
court court J judges tend to be conservative in the application of international law it's not a
35:33
a um there is again this is an observation that I I make based on where the Juris Prudence is which
35:43
is okay but the fact of having State practice brought to the for to the court and showing
35:51
that this is unac unacceptable and Justice should be pursued as as fast as possible it's something
35:57
that would create a momentum for the court to pronounce itself so this is why it's still
36:03
important the other thing is that this case while will it will take time it's creating an awareness
36:11
that a genocide is ongoing had South Africa not done so we wouldn't be talking so with such a such
36:20
a sense of confidence also because the evidence that the South Africa legal team has produced
36:27
is incredible incredible so it it alleviates the the burden on all of us including I mean
36:33
my office doesn't have many means and does I have the possibility to go out there and investigate
36:39
and also the out the Outreach to collect evidence I have is limited but then there is the commission
36:45
of inquiry the South Africa legal team or the Nicaragua uh legal team which initiated a case
36:52
against Germany so this is bringing awareness and one day the will be Justice for the Palestinians
36:59
I mean recently there's been not recently it's probably been ongoing but it's it's probably accelerated there's been a a coordinated attack on you um accusing you of anti-Semitism I think
Weaponizing of antisemitism
37:11
it it was all around that un uh meetings that you had um C can I ask you about the personal impact
37:19
of that I mean you you still persevere in your you're still going and it's fantastic and but also how maybe anti-Semitism has sometimes been weaponized if that's not a harsh a hard term to
37:30
silence criticism of Israel I don't want to talk about me because again I am one among many and
37:39
while I have privileges and immunities there are hundreds and hundreds of individuals who do not
37:46
have that who do not have the visibility I have so they are punished smeared uh silenced uh fired
37:54
um reprimanded the object of reputational damage that it's hard to fix in the dark in the shadow I
38:03
want to shed light on those because what happens to me happens to many including Jewish people
38:11
Palestinians of course but including Jewish people there have been Jewish Scholars who have been fired because of their stance because of their factual and Neal analysis or historical analysis
38:22
of what's happening in Palestine because they they speaking of genocide or of the legal occupation
38:28
and apartheid before so this is a long Trend that is becoming more and more severe now but what does
38:35
it show the weakness of the other side because they have nothing to challenge us on the fact
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and on the principles and so they try to attack us on nonsense it's nonsense and the only way to uh
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I mean I tend to ignore the attacks because they're so distracting they're annoying yes
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but why would I bother with this when there is a genocide ongoing I want to talk about that
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and I want to see how we collectively act to stop that and let the genocidal minions rally and and
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this using anti-Semitism as a tool to silence opposition to the genocide how do you like how
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do you see that as a as a to yeah it's serious it's vicious so let's unpack it anti-semitism
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exists there is no question about that it's revolting it's disgusting that after especially
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in Europe after all we have had and down to the Jewish people having still traces of anti-Semitism
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lingering is something that blows my mind but let's see what is anti-Semitism anti-Semitism
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is discrimination against the Jews because they're Jews Like anti-palestinian racism is
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discrimination against the Palestinians because they are Palestinians and these is something we need to talk about because it's it's not in the spotlight as it should and in fact the pro-israel
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groups and Lobby and the cohorts acolytes what they're doing they're using anti-Semitism and the
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fear it induces in anyone I've seen it on myself the first time I was accused of anti-Semitism I
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was paralyzed for days I said I I was confused say am I what have I done and then the beauty of it is
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that there were Jewish Scholars and Jewish people organizations and friends were I mean they have
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helped me overcome this fear of speaking out saying this is the way they silence everyone
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including us we cannot confuse anti-Semitism with a critique of what Israel does and in fact I tell
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you very clearly that Israel could be led by Muslims atheist bud this anyone you wouldn't
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change by critique so this allegation that whever criticizes Israel is an antisite is period and let
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me tell you even more it it really it's stupid and the fact that people get intimidated shows how how
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weak is the system I mean we are rational creators and we don't have the brain functioning enough to
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AR today blows my mind can I ask you about uh just the transformational effect of Gaza on lots
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of young people of course we've seen encampments in across Europe and in America and um I a lot of
How can young Muslims stay active?
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my viewers are young Muslims who are starting out in life a lot of them are studying lore at universities and um many of them have really been moved by Gaza and been activated by Gaza I mean
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what advice would you give them moving forward how do they stay stay active and and avoid the
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the pitfalls of a of a corporate world that wants to buy their silence really yeah I think this is
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the moment the moment to choose who you want to be and um yeah I relate with what you're saying
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I see that I see that because I mean um those of us who are older see that something that the
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young Generations might not realize there's never while Palestinians are have suffered oppression
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Injustice Wars after wars destruction think of Janine during the second intifa how many
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times the people in Janine have seen destruction right really uh wrote upon them without without
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being even acknowledged so now it's on full display and it's triggering solidarity this
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is excellent may this because this is this shows us that we are human that we are all connected
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and that interconnectedness now as a potential to make us better understand what solidarity means
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standing together means and it has two uh sort of consequences this determines who we decide to be
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in the what you call the the corporate world we decided to step in I'm not saying don't step into
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the corporate world there but when you do don't forget your principles don't be silenced they
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cannot silence all of us and this is the second element don't forget what alliances mean made
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of solidarity the world we live in has sort of created barriers around all of us as individuals
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confining us in a in a corner of fragility and solidarity allows to break those walls and Stand
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United and Federate and it goes to the the first point they cannot fire us all they cannot silence
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us all if we find the strength to to stand against a genocide we need to keep that fire and continue
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to fight against Injustice I know that many people feel hopeless but we don't all have that luxury
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because like the people in Gaza they cannot choose they can only strive for survival who are we to
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call ourselves hopeless we need to do everything we can to stop this genocide and learn what this
44:39
standing together has has taught us one final question for you um there is a a question that
How does Francesca stay motivated in an unjust world?
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I ask a lot of my guests and that's one of just resilience and motivation um we've seen 13 months
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now of his genocide and um I don't know people maybe are becoming slight more desensitized to
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the pictures maybe that's a bit too harsh but uh there is a sense that we've tried everything we've
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protested in England here in London we protested in great numbers in hundreds of thousands but it
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doesn't seem to make an impact David Lamy is still saying there is no genocide taking place
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in in Gaza how do you stay motivated in such an unjust World Franchesca and this is where I
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think that the colonial and um Imperial historical Amnesia play in because we tend to live so much in
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the moment that we seem to have forgotten the struggles that led us to the freedom we enjoy
45:42
today again we need to think of the people who have fought against libery it was not that long
45:50
ago that even if we want to keep the genocide the experiences aside but until a few years ago even
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in the west in the United States there were people were segregated like in South Africa and we've
46:10
never called what the African Americans endured as apartheid but I don't think that had I mean an
46:18
analysis of it would fail understand how apartheid did exist and was practiced upon them and in fact
46:25
we could in go further and see what has happened to the indigenous people the Native Americans in
46:33
uh in the United States are totally invisibilized the original and the continuous owner of the land
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are are them are these people so we need to understand that we are part we are a small
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part of history but our actions will determine both the present and the future this is what
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builds what builds Revolution is the necessity the impossibility to live with the status quo
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if we do not push back on this it means that the status quo is still convenient to us which is a
47:10
reflection of our selfishness and again we need to be put in front of a mirror and today we need
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decide who we want to be and the kind of of future we want to we want to to secure for ourselves our
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families for the planet and again this is the moment to make a choice this can be this can
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be a revolution anesa Alan thank you very much for giving us hope thank you for your time today thank
47:43
you please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
47:51
over to our website thinking muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter her
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